Abortion

Corruptedmorals

16 weeks is probably too low, seeing as the 20 week scan might pick up conditions not present at the 12 week one. But 24 is too high as babies can survive earlier. So maybe 21/22 weeks.

LilyCricket

Born to Die wrote: »

I only read what you posted.

Yes, and?

Atlantis50

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Why would you need more time?

I'm just wondering what's so special about 16 weeks. Is it just an arbitrary choice or is there some special characteristics gained by the fetus at 16 weeks?

eviltwin

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

16 weeks is probably too low, seeing as the 20 week scan might pick up conditions not present at the 12 week one. But 24 is too high as babies can survive earlier. So maybe 21/22 weeks.

Thats true, you might not find out until quite late that something is wrong and tbh the maternity system here is so underfunded where a woman used to get her first scan at 12 weeks many are now having to wait until the 20 wk to get even a first scan.

Bullseye1

Don't know. Probably best to consult with a doctor.

Born to Die

LilyCricket wrote: »

Yes, and?

Why would you post that you hope another poster doesn't reach old age?

Sheeps

Blue_Seas wrote: »

Sheeps wrote: »

I'm sure there are circumstances where abortion should be an option available to a mother where it is currently not, however I don't believe this decision should be left to the mother alone

And I don't believe that someone who will not experience pregnancy should decide whether I can get an abortion or not.

How about we get a room of women to decide on whether you should have a vasectomy or not?

Bottom line is that a pregnant person should get to choose. If you're against abortion, don't get one, just like if you're against gay marriage you shouldn't get one. Don't deny the privilege to others.

(Oh and your statement that women lose all rights as a person and simply become a "baby carrier" once pregnant was absolutely disgusting)

Your argument is ridiculous. My comments about losing certain rights while pregnant were in relation to drinking and smoking while pregnant and women who do this should face the repercussions that anyone would for supplying a minor with tobacco or alcohol.

This shouldn't be a problem for most decent pregnant women. Only people who drink and smoke while pregnant would be effected, what's the problem?

Atlantis50

Blue_Seas wrote: »

As an aside: people can use the safet contraceptive methods possible and still end up with an unwanted pregnancy. Abortion isn't dragging a crying baby out and killing it - in most cases it's removing a cluster of cells. Cells like a tumour. It's not a human life to most people, and if that constitutes human life to you then you're going against the scientific community and simply don't go for a termination.

Also if abortion is murder, is a twin absorbing the second fetus in utero murder? Is using contraception murder, too? Both abortion and contraception are stopping potential life so I guess anyone who uses contraception is going to hell!

And under no other circumstances does one person have to give up their bodily resources, daily functions and give their nutrients to another life attached to it. A woman is not obliged to keep a baby when it isn't even a life yet. Personally, when a baby becomes an actual baby (not a clump of cells without consciousness) I wouldn't get one, but if someone else thinks they can go through with that then I won't stop them. That's not my place.

Would you consider a fetus with a beating heart as being merely a 'cluster of cells...like a tumour'?

Bullseye1

If you had a friend and she had a miscarriage and was depressed about losing the "baby" in her mind would you say "sure it wasn't a life anyway, you will get over it"?

LilyCricket

Born to Die wrote: »

Why would you post that you hope another poster doesn't reach old age?

It was a remark, not put out there for the likes of pedantic, sensitive souls, such as yourself, I am sorry

Next time i post I'll include balloons & mention a rainbow

downwithpeace

Honestly I don't know but what I do believe is that any religious view point needs to be removed when seriously considering legalizing or preventing abortion.

Atlantis50

Bullseye1 wrote: »

If you had a friend and she had a miscarriage and was depressed about losing the "baby" in her mind would you say "sure it wasn't a life anyway, you will get over it"?

Good point.

You certainly wouldn't be telling her 'just think of it as being a cluster of cells...a tumour'.

Born to Die

LilyCricket wrote: »

It was a remark, not put out there for the likes of pedantic, sensitive souls, such as yourself, I am sorry

Next time i post I'll include balloons & mention a rainbow

Thank you for your future consideration of us pedantic sensitive souls.
Balloons and rainbows are not required but feel free to add them to your posts if you believe they will distract from your remarks.


:pac:

micropig

Blue_Seas wrote: »

And I don't believe that someone who will not experience pregnancy should decide whether I can get an abortion or not.

I'm conflicted over this. Women can't get pregnant on their own so men should have as much say ideally.

I another thread I got the head bitten off me for saying that as a woman has to go through the pregnancy, she should take more responsibility for contraception, because it is her body that will have to carry the child and some of the time the woman is left to rear the child alone, so it effects her life more......................

But the woman should have final decision on abortion, but shouldn't take more responsibility for contraception...my head hurts

dark crystal

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Why 16 weeks?

Because after that, the methods used are more invasive and traumatic for both the mother and foetus, in my opinion.

Foetus' have survived outside the womb at 21 weeks, so the current cut-off point of 24 weeks in the U.K seems very wrong to me (unless there is a threat to the mother, or the baby would have no quality of life outside the womb).

Personally, I would never consider having one at all, but I would not want to deny the right to other women who, for whatever reason, feel they would not be able to continue with their own pregnancy. Exporting the problem isn't making it go away.

eviltwin

micropig wrote: »

I'm conflicted over this. Women can't get pregnant on their own so men should have as much say ideally.

I another thread I got the head bitten off me for saying that as a woman has to go through the pregnancy, she should take more responsibility for contraception, because it is her body that will have to carry the child and some of the time the woman is left to rear the child alone, so it effects her life more......................

But the woman should have final decision on abortion, but shouldn't take more responsibility for contraception...my head hurts

Everyone should be responsible for their own fertility regardless of gender. If you don't want to procreate you can't just leave it up to the person you are with, that would be just stupid and careless.

LilyCricket

Born to Die wrote: »

Thank you for your future consideration of us pedantic sensitive souls.
Balloons and rainbows are not required but feel free to add them to your posts if you believe they will distract from your remarks.


:pac:

what remarks, exactly, Pat?

PrincessLola

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Good point.

You certainly wouldn't be telling her 'just think of it as being a cluster of cells...a tumour'.

That would be a sociopathic thing to say. Not because its a "Real Human Life!!1" because she didn't choose to terminate the fetus, hence it was not her decision.

Bullseye1

downwithpeace wrote: »

Honestly I don't know but what I do believe is that any religious view point needs to be removed when seriously considering legalizing or preventing abortion.

I don't believe people have to be religious to be anti-abortion. I wouldn't consider myself religious in anyway. I think it's all fairy tales and stories for the most part. And while I think scientifically that life begins very early I do believe in choice. And while I do respect peoples views on both sides of the fence there is alot of nonsense spouted by both sides in order to one up on each other.

For example women want the right to an abortion, which is fair enough. Say a woman gets pregnant and her partner doesn't want a child and is insisting she have an abortion. Where are his rights? What if she goes ahead with the pregnancy and then comes after him for financial support after he specifically stated he didn't want a child?

Born to Die

LilyCricket wrote: »

what remarks, exactly, Pat?

Truce?

eviltwin

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I don't believe people have to be religious to be anti-abortion. I wouldn't consider myself religious in anyway. I think it's all fairy tales and stories for the most part. And while I think scientifically that life begins very early I do believe in choice. And while I do respect peoples views on both sides of the fence there is alot of nonsense spouted by both sides in order to one up on each other.

For example women want the right to an abortion, which is fair enough. Say a woman gets pregnant and her partner doesn't want a child and is insisting she have an abortion. Where are his rights? What if she goes ahead with the pregnancy and then comes after him for financial support after he specifically stated he didn't want a child?

Forcing a woman to have an abortion against her will because its what the father wants is out of the question. Do we really want a society that has forced abortion?

I get the other side about men not being able to have a say about her keeping the baby but sadly we don't have a right to tell another person what to do. If my husband decides tomorrow he wants a vasectomy but I want more kids I can't stop him nor should I be able to.

micropig

eviltwin wrote: »

Everyone should be responsible for their own fertility regardless of gender. If you don't want to procreate you can't just leave it up to the person you are with, that would be just stupid and careless.

I don't disagree with you, but why should women have the final say on abortion, men are just as responsible for creating the child?


If I don;t want a child I use contraception. I don't make a child and then seek to terminate it (under normal circumstances ie no medical reasons)

eviltwin

micropig wrote: »

I don't disagree with you, but why should women have the final say on abortion, men are just as responsible for creating the child?

See my post above

Atlantis50

PrincessLola wrote: »

Pro-choicers always use the heartbeat claim to try and guilt women. But meh, lots of things have heartbeats.

Its a potential life. I don't give a f*ck what a bunch of men writing the Irish law say otherwise.

Okay, so it's merely a 'potential life' right up to birth according to you.

So if the baby was aborted or killed at 38 weeks, that's fine because it's still merely a 'potential life' with no rights according to you. But if the baby was killed immediately after birth, that would be a murder.

Atlantis50

PrincessLola wrote: »

That would be a sociopathic thing to say. Not because its a "Real Human Life!!1" because she didn't choose to terminate the fetus, hence it was not her decision.

That is what another poster described a fetus as being.

Bullseye1

eviltwin wrote: »

Forcing a woman to have an abortion against her will because its what the father wants is out of the question. Do we really want a society that has forced abortion?

I get the other side about men not being able to have a say about her keeping the baby but sadly we don't have a right to tell another person what to do. If my husband decides tomorrow he wants a vasectomy but I want more kids I can't stop him nor should I be able to.

But don't most abortions occur outside marriage? My argument is more about couples who are not married. BTW I'm not saying men should force women to have abortions. But they should have the choice to have nothing to do with the child if the mother decides to keep the child.

downwithpeace

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I don't believe people have to be religious to be anti-abortion. I wouldn't consider myself religious in anyway. I think it's all fairy tales and stories for the most part. And while I think scientifically that life begins very early I do believe in choice. And while I do respect peoples views on both sides of the fence there is alot of nonsense spouted by both sides in order to one up on each other.

For example women want the right to an abortion, which is fair enough. Say a woman gets pregnant and her partner doesn't want a child and is insisting she have an abortion. Where are his rights? What if she goes ahead with the pregnancy and then comes after him for financial support after he specifically stated he didn't want a child?

Your expanding into areas that have me in the "what if" so comes back to me not knowing what I think is the better. I just basically believe if it was to come to a legal for or against then in my view religion needs to be removed, not that I have anything against religion but given the serious and non-serious reasons for abortion I believe religion might cloud the issue.

eviltwin

Bullseye1 wrote: »

But don't most abortions occur outside marriage? My argument is more about couples who are not married. BTW I'm not saying men should force women to have abortions. But they should have the choice to have nothing to do with the child if the mother decides to keep the child.

Where is your evidence that most abortions happen outside marriage?

Atlantis50

dark crystal wrote: »

Because after that, the methods used are more invasive and traumatic for both the mother and foetus, in my opinion.

Foetus' have survived outside the womb at 21 weeks, so the current cut-off point of 24 weeks in the U.K seems very wrong to me (unless there is a threat to the mother, or the baby would have no quality of life outside the womb).

Personally, I would never consider having one at all, but I would not want to deny the right to other women who, for whatever reason, feel they would not be able to continue with their own pregnancy. Exporting the problem isn't making it go away.

When, in your opinion does life begin? At conception, implantation, at some stage in the womb or birth?

micropig

eviltwin wrote: »

Forcing a woman to have an abortion against her will because its what the father wants is out of the question. Do we really want a society that has forced abortion?

I get the other side about men not being able to have a say about her keeping the baby but sadly we don't have a right to tell another person what to do. If my husband decides tomorrow he wants a vasectomy but I want more kids I can't stop him nor should I be able to.

But it seems ok for a woman to have an abortion against the will of her partner.....Why? Because it's her body, therefore she should ensure she is protected against unwanted pregnancy before fornicating.

* The man should also be responsible, but some men are dumb/lie/just want their hole