Donegal and the household charge

donegal_road · 18-04-2012 01:03PM #1

April 17, 2012

Donegal County Council has made a landmark decision to instruct Council staff not to access utility information from those boycotting the Household Charge. Cllr Jack Murray said:
“I am delighted that members of Labour, Fianna Fáil and some independent councillors were able to put politics aside to back Sinn Féin’s motion.”
Cllr Murray has welcomed the landmark decision by Donegal County Council which today instructed council staff not to access private data such as ESB bills and social welfare information from those who have not paid the household charge. The power to access such information was granted to local authorities under Section 14 of the Local Government (Household Charge) Act.
Speaking after the Council meeting Cllr Murray said;
“Today was a great day for Donegal. The members of Donegal County Council have overwhelming called on council staff not to invade the privacy of local homeowners who have not paid the unjust household charge.
“As a council we have made a stand with the people of Donegal – the vast majority of whom have rejected the household charge.
“I have requested that the successful motion is now sent to every local authority in the state to have it debated further. If Fianna Fail and Labour Councillors in Donegal can support this motion, there is no reason why they cannot do so everywhere else.”

Note to Editors: The motion read as follows:
“That Donegal County Council will not use the power it has been given by section 14 of the Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011 to access information held by utility

source

Head The Wall · 18-04-2012 02:13PM

Should these staff get penalized/ punished for not doing their jobs? Also are they that stupid to not realize where their wages come from and what happens when there is less money in the DOF than expected i.e. More wage cuts / reduced services.

Sounds like a vote grabbing exercise by the councillors to me

ardmacha · 18-04-2012 02:21PM

I hope they don't expect people living in areas where the local authority does its job to send money to keep public services running.

meglome · 18-04-2012 02:33PM

As I was saying over in the household charge thread I'd have some respect for this decision if they had voted to bring in efficiencies and lower the tax burden to the taxpayer. Even if they were putting forward alternatives to a property tax, or what the hell explaining why for some bizarre reason the left in this country is rejecting a tax on wealth. But no they did something pointless and populist.

Godge · 18-04-2012 02:35PM

The collecting of the tax is probably an executive function reserved to the county manager and his officials. Therefore, any motion passed by the councillors will have no effect as the county manager can ignore it just as he can ignore a motion from the councillor to appoint the mayor's brother to a job. They can say to their constituents that they passed the motion but the county manager overruled them. It is all for show, for politics, for populism - it reflects a FF-type gombeenism that still exists in rural Ireland.

Before someone starts jumping up and down about the county manager rejecting the democratically expressed will of the councillors, remember that there are good reasons for the division of power between executive, legislative and judiciary regimes. For example, if councillors could have a say in how local taxes were collected (rather than how much they should be), they could pass a motion saying don't collect rates in Ballybofey (the reason might just be because a majority of councillors have businesses there). Don't think that wouldn't happen. One of the biggest scandals of the last 30 years in Ireland (yet to be fully exposed) is the effect that elected councillors have had in destroying the countryside because of planning motions that went against the advice of local planners.

Cllr. Jack Murray sounds like an idiot. He says it is a great day for Donegal yet he admits in the quote how powerless the motion is "The members of Donegal County Council have overwhelming called on council staff not to invade the privacy of local homeowners who have not paid the unjust household charge" They have called on the council staff not to do it, note that they haven't instructed the council staff. I call on Donegal councillors not to make such idiots of themselves by passing stupid motions that will have no effect.

GSF · 18-04-2012 04:05PM

They should just disband the council as it is nothing more than a forum for populist uncosted waffle from major league self publicists. If there is to be genuine local government in Ireland, it has to be self funded by local taxes. That way the revenue generation & the spending can both be judged by the electorate when they vote for councillors.

Icepick · 18-04-2012 05:39PM

Populist nonsense.
This does not mean that the utilities' databases cannot be used.

I'd like to see how their pride fares if a decision was made that Donegal will not receive any taxes not collected in Donegal.

Count Dooku · 18-04-2012 06:17PM

Keep it simple stupid
some percent of salaries of council staff must be paid from household charge
if public servants want to support protesters, they should pay from own pockets

Vizzy · 18-04-2012 09:10PM

Count Dooku wrote: »

Keep it simple stupid
some percent of salaries of council staff must be paid from household charge
if public servants want to support protesters, they should pay from own pockets

I get the impression from this reply that you think that the council workers are thinking about not collecting the household charge or not accessing utility information.
Not a chance!!!!.
Firstly,if this is the instruction from the County Manager,they will be disciplined if they don't comply and not a thing the Union can(or would) do about it.
Secondly this is a pure stunt by Cllr Murray and his cronies and has no basis in law.They can play the game all they like but when there is a funding shortfall I would suspect that Mr Murray et al will receive the notice thet they deserve and be asked to explain how they now intend to fund services or alternatively,what services should be cut so that the Council stays within budget.

Firblog · 18-04-2012 09:46PM

Being from Donegal I feel fully justified in not paying the household tax; the amount of wasteful spending by the council up here is horrendous. It has come to light that the council has spent €5,000,000+ on consultants reports on building a sewage treatment plant... not one block has been laid and it looks like the whole thing will be abandoned.

Also worst council according to An Taisce..

EricPraline · 18-04-2012 10:07PM

Being from <INSERT COUNTY HERE> I feel fully justified in not paying the household tax; the amount of wasteful spending by the council here is horrendous.

Arguably the same argument could be made anywhere in Ireland.

But without proposing an alternative strategy for funding (some or all of) the activities of local government in the area, this is just irresponsible populist posturing by the local representatives in question.

jimmycrackcorm · 18-04-2012 10:12PM

Donegal Cc would be better advocating a cull of the massive celtic tiger wages still being paid to their numerous idle planners and engineers. Many of these who are on 70k before expenses with little to do these days.

Firblog · 18-04-2012 10:24PM

EricPraline wrote: »

Arguably the same argument could be made anywhere in Ireland.

But without proposing an alternative strategy for funding (some or all of) the activities of local government in the area, this is just irresponsible populist posturing by the local representatives in question.

I have no objection to funding the council via some type of local tax, it is funding it when there is no local oversight on the way it spends wastes the money it is allocated.

People may laugh (an I'm one of them) at councillors passing meaningless populist motions but ours passed a montion that would have forced the council to avoid the current sewage treatment plant shambles; had the montion had any legal forceful standing

Godge · 18-04-2012 10:31PM

Count Dooku wrote: »

Keep it simple stupid
some percent of salaries of council staff must be paid from household charge
if public servants want to support protesters, they should pay from own pockets

Kettle and pot here I think, who is stupid?

This motion was passed by the elected councillors who are not public servants but are elected by the public.

The public servants (appointed through an independent above board process) are working away doing their best to collect the charge

DoneDL · 18-04-2012 10:41PM

Populist most probably but this household charge is not a charge that is the result of local consultation or a charge for Donegal. It is to most people a charge to repay bondholders that bet then lost and got their money back with interest.

GetWithIt · 18-04-2012 11:35PM

Most incompetent council in Ireland (officially) calls on employees not to do their job.

Yep, that sounds about right.

mistermouse · 19-04-2012 07:29AM

Apart from many of the developers being in with councillors, there was always a problem of councillors using influence and actually over-riding council staff and officials.

Is there not something referred to as a section 4 motion, (or similar term) whereby councillors over-ruled planners full stop

Its a bit rich for councillors pulling a worthless PR stunt now

I'd happily see power taken from the councillors in Donegal, alot of the council works well, but the councillors and their expenses are of little use to the county

ednwireland · 19-04-2012 08:23AM

nice to see donegal county councillers on the ball again, the reason people didnt pay up here is because they see that donegal coco's a worthless self-s erving black hole which is expressly there to pay crazy wages to their executive and allow councillers to give up full time jobs (i always thought you only got expenses as a councillor )

GSF · 19-04-2012 09:16AM

DoneDL wrote: »

Populist most probably but this household charge is not a charge that is the result of local consultation or a charge for Donegal. It is to most people a charge to repay bondholders that bet then lost and got their money back with interest.

Maybe Donegal CoCo could fund a study to show the amount of tax revenue raised in Donegal (VAT, Income tax, Corp Tax, etc) versus the amount spent on services.

If they are serious about the arguement that what comes from Donegal should stay in Donegal, lets see where that leaves them

Count Dooku · 19-04-2012 06:09PM

Godge wrote: »

This motion was passed by the elected councillors who are not public servants but are elected by the public.

The public servants (appointed through an independent above board process) are working away doing their best to collect the charge

The only reason for bravery for Donegal councillors is that they can remind about own existence without any consequences
Reduce central funding by amount of property tax which must be collected and if people don't want to pay, then pay to council staff can be reduced and result services can be reduced as well, so those populists will have to think twice next time

Firblog · 19-04-2012 10:29PM

Count Dooku wrote: »

Reduce central funding by amount of property tax which must be collected and if people don't want to pay, then pay to council staff can be reduced and result services can be reduced as well, so those populists will have to think twice next time

It's very rich of you to say lets reduce central funding now that funds are tight, during the boom when funds were washing around the country Donegal did not get anywhere near the amount of per capita funding the cities got; motorways between Dublin, Cork, Waterfor, Limerick and Galway, Redevelopement everywhere, Small Tunnels that cost a Billion and a couple of luas lines that cost multiples of that.

If you want to reduce funding based on taxes being collected, may I suggest apportioning Debt on where it was generated...
I'm sure the per capita amount of debt that originated in Dublin is much more than Donegal, lets make people pay it off on that basis..

Count Dooku · 20-04-2012 07:29AM

Firblog wrote: »

It's very rich of you to say lets reduce central funding now that funds are tight, during the boom when funds were washing around the country Donegal did not get anywhere near the amount of per capita funding the cities got; motorways between Dublin, Cork, Waterfor, Limerick and Galway, Redevelopement everywhere, Small Tunnels that cost a Billion and a couple of luas lines that cost multiples of that.

If you want to reduce funding based on taxes being collected, may I suggest apportioning Debt on where it was generated...
I'm sure the per capita amount of debt that originated in Dublin is much more than Donegal, lets make people pay it off on that basis..

I don't think so, taking into account that Donegal has highest number of ghost estates per capita

ednwireland · 20-04-2012 08:58AM

Count Dooku wrote: »

I don't think so, taking into account that Donegal has highest number of ghost estates per capita

you think ??

The largest number of inactive ghost estates are in Cork county (175) followed by Wexford (115), Cavan (111) and Kerry (97).

Cork county also has the highest number of vacant units (2,363), followed by Dublin city (1,553) Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown (1,080) and Fingal (1,051).

However, Carlow, Leitrim, Longford, Cavan and Sligo have the highest proportion of vacant houses on ghost estates on a per capita basis.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/number-of-ghost-estates-decreases-170662.html#ixzz1sZ8Bnbqm

GSF · 20-04-2012 09:01AM

Firblog wrote: »

It's very rich of you to say lets reduce central funding now that funds are tight, during the boom when funds were washing around the country Donegal did not get anywhere near the amount of per capita funding the cities got; motorways between Dublin, Cork, Waterfor, Limerick and Galway, Redevelopement everywhere, Small Tunnels that cost a Billion and a couple of luas lines that cost multiples of that.

If you want to reduce funding based on taxes being collected, may I suggest apportioning Debt on where it was generated...
I'm sure the per capita amount of debt that originated in Dublin is much more than Donegal, lets make people pay it off on that basis..

Well Donegal got the €17m bridge to nowhere. Rather than putting a 2nd crossing over the Swilly in LK, it seemed to end up at the bottom of Fanad. Funny how that happened.

Scofflaw · 20-04-2012 09:50AM

GSF wrote: »

Maybe Donegal CoCo could fund a study to show the amount of tax revenue raised in Donegal (VAT, Income tax, Corp Tax, etc) versus the amount spent on services.

If they are serious about the arguement that what comes from Donegal should stay in Donegal, lets see where that leaves them

Highest per-capita net subsidy in the country, last time I looked at the CSO figures - something like €2k per person annually.

cordially,
Scofflaw

n97 mini · 20-04-2012 10:05AM

Godge wrote: »

This motion was passed by the elected councillors who are not public servants but are elected by the public.

Paid by the public = public servant, elected or otherwise.

Firblog wrote: »

It's very rich of you to say lets reduce central funding now that funds are tight, during the boom when funds were washing around the country Donegal did not get anywhere near the amount of per capita funding the cities got;

Did it generate as much money as the cities do?

Firblog wrote: »

motorways between Dublin, Cork, Waterfor, Limerick and Galway, Redevelopement everywhere, Small Tunnels that cost a Billion and a couple of luas lines that cost multiples of that.

Are you arguing that Donegal should also have Luas, a motorway to Dublin, and small tunnels?

Firblog wrote: »

If you want to reduce funding based on taxes being collected, may I suggest apportioning Debt on where it was generated...

Dublin subsidises Donegal. Donegal does not generate enough income to fund itself.

I get kind of fed up of the attitude that seems to only come out of Donegal. Between VRT, the household charge, and everyone seemingly shopping in NI, no-one seems to want to pay for anything, yet there is never a complaint that the dole is too high, despite a 75% unemployment rate among young men in the county, the highest in the country.

n97 mini · 20-04-2012 10:10AM

Scofflaw wrote: »

Highest per-capita net subsidy in the country, last time I looked at the CSO figures - something like €2k per person annually.

cordially,
Scofflaw

There was a lad on Pat Kenny in the last 12 months some time, and he calculated the net subsidy per person on the western seaboard to be around €4k, while at the same time those in the greater Dublin area are paying out on average €4k more in taxes than they are getting services for.

Firblog · 21-04-2012 01:13PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

Highest per-capita net subsidy in the country, last time I looked at the CSO figures - something like €2k per person annually.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Any Chance you'd point us to where you looked so that we can have a peek at what they term 'services'?

n97 mini wrote: »

Paid by the public = public servant, elected or otherwise.

Did it generate as much money as the cities do?.

No we don't generate as much, not even on a per capita basis, but we also have much less spent on infrastructure on a per capita basis.

examples

Dublin Bus Sub Cost: €75,000,000 pa X 10 = €750,000,000
Luas lines Cost= €798,000,000
Dublin Port Tunnel Cost= €752,000,000
Ballymun Regeneration Cost= €900,000,000

Total €3,200,000,000

n97 mini wrote: »

Are you arguing that Donegal should also have Luas, a motorway to Dublin, and small tunnels?.

Now that would just be silly.. Decent Internal roads, and good links to the rest of the country would suffice.

n97 mini wrote: »

Dublin subsidises Donegal. Donegal does not generate enough income to fund itself.

How do you think Dublin Subsidises us? Would that be on the same basis of the CSO figures mentioned by Scofflaw? A little link would help..

n97 mini wrote: »

I get kind of fed up of the attitude that seems to only come out of Donegal. Between VRT, the household charge, and everyone seemingly shopping in NI, no-one seems to want to pay for anything, yet there is never a complaint that the dole is too high, despite a 75% unemployment rate among young men in the county, the highest in the country.

I have to say I’m absolutely gobsmacked by the unemployement figures you’ve mentioned. I had no idea it was so high, that is scandalous.

Having briefly scanned the information on the link you provided, I see that Donegal has joint highest with Louth, and

“In a further eleven counties, concentrated in three regions – Border, Midlands and South-East – the estimated number of young men signing on is between one half and two thirds”

now ask yourself why this is so... could it be the it be the lack of govt spend in the regions compared to Dublin?

OR

Could it be that the majority of the civil & public service (permanent, highly paid and recession proof ) jobs are based in Dublin? (No withstanding the ill fated decentralization) with the consequent benefit to consumer demand in the region?

I notice that you've not mentioned the Debt...

Oh and by the way I have paid VRT, never shop in the North ( more than me do that or do you think all the shops here survive on air) , pay for everything and do think the dole is too high

n97 mini wrote: »

There was a lad on Pat Kenny in the last 12 months some time, and he calculated the net subsidy per person on the western seaboard to be around €4k, while at the same time those in the greater Dublin area are paying out on average €4k more in taxes than they are getting services for.

Aye, everytime I catch Pat Kenny's show on TV or radio there is usually some lad talking shoite too, I'd switch off if I were you...

n97 mini · 21-04-2012 01:48PM

Firblog wrote: »

How do you think Dublin Subsidises us?

Do you feel that all the revenue raised in Donegal is enough to be able to fund all the services provided in Donegal?

Count Dooku · 21-04-2012 02:00PM

ednwireland wrote: »

you think ??

yes

http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2012/04/20120416StateoftheNation_PlanningSystem.pdf

ardmacha · 21-04-2012 03:54PM

There is no doubt that Donegal receives a net subsidy. But since people contrived deliberately to banjax its economy by partitioning the country this is not surprising. And whatever about history, there continues to be deliberate policies to disadvantage border areas.

That said, I wonder how the Ballymun Regeneration Cost of €900,000,000 compares will the entire public housing budget in the entire BMW area, for instance.

Donegal and the household charge

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