Donegal and the household charge

donegal_road

April 17, 2012

Donegal County Council has made a landmark decision to instruct Council staff not to access utility information from those boycotting the Household Charge. Cllr Jack Murray said:
“I am delighted that members of Labour, Fianna Fáil and some independent councillors were able to put politics aside to back Sinn Féin’s motion.”
Cllr Murray has welcomed the landmark decision by Donegal County Council which today instructed council staff not to access private data such as ESB bills and social welfare information from those who have not paid the household charge. The power to access such information was granted to local authorities under Section 14 of the Local Government (Household Charge) Act.
Speaking after the Council meeting Cllr Murray said;
“Today was a great day for Donegal. The members of Donegal County Council have overwhelming called on council staff not to invade the privacy of local homeowners who have not paid the unjust household charge.
“As a council we have made a stand with the people of Donegal – the vast majority of whom have rejected the household charge.
“I have requested that the successful motion is now sent to every local authority in the state to have it debated further. If Fianna Fail and Labour Councillors in Donegal can support this motion, there is no reason why they cannot do so everywhere else.”

Note to Editors: The motion read as follows:
“That Donegal County Council will not use the power it has been given by section 14 of the Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011 to access information held by utility

source

Head The Wall

Should these staff get penalized/ punished for not doing their jobs? Also are they that stupid to not realize where their wages come from and what happens when there is less money in the DOF than expected i.e. More wage cuts / reduced services.

Sounds like a vote grabbing exercise by the councillors to me

ardmacha

I hope they don't expect people living in areas where the local authority does its job to send money to keep public services running.

meglome

As I was saying over in the household charge thread I'd have some respect for this decision if they had voted to bring in efficiencies and lower the tax burden to the taxpayer. Even if they were putting forward alternatives to a property tax, or what the hell explaining why for some bizarre reason the left in this country is rejecting a tax on wealth. But no they did something pointless and populist.

Godge

The collecting of the tax is probably an executive function reserved to the county manager and his officials. Therefore, any motion passed by the councillors will have no effect as the county manager can ignore it just as he can ignore a motion from the councillor to appoint the mayor's brother to a job. They can say to their constituents that they passed the motion but the county manager overruled them. It is all for show, for politics, for populism - it reflects a FF-type gombeenism that still exists in rural Ireland.

Before someone starts jumping up and down about the county manager rejecting the democratically expressed will of the councillors, remember that there are good reasons for the division of power between executive, legislative and judiciary regimes. For example, if councillors could have a say in how local taxes were collected (rather than how much they should be), they could pass a motion saying don't collect rates in Ballybofey (the reason might just be because a majority of councillors have businesses there). Don't think that wouldn't happen. One of the biggest scandals of the last 30 years in Ireland (yet to be fully exposed) is the effect that elected councillors have had in destroying the countryside because of planning motions that went against the advice of local planners.

Cllr. Jack Murray sounds like an idiot. He says it is a great day for Donegal yet he admits in the quote how powerless the motion is "The members of Donegal County Council have overwhelming called on council staff not to invade the privacy of local homeowners who have not paid the unjust household charge" They have called on the council staff not to do it, note that they haven't instructed the council staff. I call on Donegal councillors not to make such idiots of themselves by passing stupid motions that will have no effect.

GSF

They should just disband the council as it is nothing more than a forum for populist uncosted waffle from major league self publicists. If there is to be genuine local government in Ireland, it has to be self funded by local taxes. That way the revenue generation & the spending can both be judged by the electorate when they vote for councillors.

Icepick

Populist nonsense.
This does not mean that the utilities' databases cannot be used.

I'd like to see how their pride fares if a decision was made that Donegal will not receive any taxes not collected in Donegal.

Count Dooku

Keep it simple stupid
some percent of salaries of council staff must be paid from household charge
if public servants want to support protesters, they should pay from own pockets

Vizzy

Count Dooku wrote: »

Keep it simple stupid
some percent of salaries of council staff must be paid from household charge
if public servants want to support protesters, they should pay from own pockets

I get the impression from this reply that you think that the council workers are thinking about not collecting the household charge or not accessing utility information.
Not a chance!!!!.
Firstly,if this is the instruction from the County Manager,they will be disciplined if they don't comply and not a thing the Union can(or would) do about it.
Secondly this is a pure stunt by Cllr Murray and his cronies and has no basis in law.They can play the game all they like but when there is a funding shortfall I would suspect that Mr Murray et al will receive the notice thet they deserve and be asked to explain how they now intend to fund services or alternatively,what services should be cut so that the Council stays within budget.

Firblog

Being from Donegal I feel fully justified in not paying the household tax; the amount of wasteful spending by the council up here is horrendous. It has come to light that the council has spent €5,000,000+ on consultants reports on building a sewage treatment plant... not one block has been laid and it looks like the whole thing will be abandoned.

Also worst council according to An Taisce..

EricPraline

Being from <INSERT COUNTY HERE> I feel fully justified in not paying the household tax; the amount of wasteful spending by the council here is horrendous.

Arguably the same argument could be made anywhere in Ireland.

But without proposing an alternative strategy for funding (some or all of) the activities of local government in the area, this is just irresponsible populist posturing by the local representatives in question.

jimmycrackcorm

Donegal Cc would be better advocating a cull of the massive celtic tiger wages still being paid to their numerous idle planners and engineers. Many of these who are on 70k before expenses with little to do these days.

Firblog

EricPraline wrote: »

Arguably the same argument could be made anywhere in Ireland.

But without proposing an alternative strategy for funding (some or all of) the activities of local government in the area, this is just irresponsible populist posturing by the local representatives in question.

I have no objection to funding the council via some type of local tax, it is funding it when there is no local oversight on the way it spends wastes the money it is allocated.

People may laugh (an I'm one of them) at councillors passing meaningless populist motions but ours passed a montion that would have forced the council to avoid the current sewage treatment plant shambles; had the montion had any legal forceful standing

Godge

Count Dooku wrote: »

Keep it simple stupid
some percent of salaries of council staff must be paid from household charge
if public servants want to support protesters, they should pay from own pockets

Kettle and pot here I think, who is stupid?

This motion was passed by the elected councillors who are not public servants but are elected by the public.

The public servants (appointed through an independent above board process) are working away doing their best to collect the charge

DoneDL

Populist most probably but this household charge is not a charge that is the result of local consultation or a charge for Donegal. It is to most people a charge to repay bondholders that bet then lost and got their money back with interest.

GetWithIt

Most incompetent council in Ireland (officially) calls on employees not to do their job.

Yep, that sounds about right.

mistermouse

Apart from many of the developers being in with councillors, there was always a problem of councillors using influence and actually over-riding council staff and officials.

Is there not something referred to as a section 4 motion, (or similar term) whereby councillors over-ruled planners full stop

Its a bit rich for councillors pulling a worthless PR stunt now

I'd happily see power taken from the councillors in Donegal, alot of the council works well, but the councillors and their expenses are of little use to the county

ednwireland

nice to see donegal county councillers on the ball again, the reason people didnt pay up here is because they see that donegal coco's a worthless self-s erving black hole which is expressly there to pay crazy wages to their executive and allow councillers to give up full time jobs (i always thought you only got expenses as a councillor )

GSF

DoneDL wrote: »

Populist most probably but this household charge is not a charge that is the result of local consultation or a charge for Donegal. It is to most people a charge to repay bondholders that bet then lost and got their money back with interest.

Maybe Donegal CoCo could fund a study to show the amount of tax revenue raised in Donegal (VAT, Income tax, Corp Tax, etc) versus the amount spent on services.

If they are serious about the arguement that what comes from Donegal should stay in Donegal, lets see where that leaves them

Count Dooku

Godge wrote: »

This motion was passed by the elected councillors who are not public servants but are elected by the public.

The public servants (appointed through an independent above board process) are working away doing their best to collect the charge

The only reason for bravery for Donegal councillors is that they can remind about own existence without any consequences
Reduce central funding by amount of property tax which must be collected and if people don't want to pay, then pay to council staff can be reduced and result services can be reduced as well, so those populists will have to think twice next time

Firblog

Count Dooku wrote: »

Reduce central funding by amount of property tax which must be collected and if people don't want to pay, then pay to council staff can be reduced and result services can be reduced as well, so those populists will have to think twice next time

It's very rich of you to say lets reduce central funding now that funds are tight, during the boom when funds were washing around the country Donegal did not get anywhere near the amount of per capita funding the cities got; motorways between Dublin, Cork, Waterfor, Limerick and Galway, Redevelopement everywhere, Small Tunnels that cost a Billion and a couple of luas lines that cost multiples of that.

If you want to reduce funding based on taxes being collected, may I suggest apportioning Debt on where it was generated...
I'm sure the per capita amount of debt that originated in Dublin is much more than Donegal, lets make people pay it off on that basis..

Count Dooku

Firblog wrote: »

It's very rich of you to say lets reduce central funding now that funds are tight, during the boom when funds were washing around the country Donegal did not get anywhere near the amount of per capita funding the cities got; motorways between Dublin, Cork, Waterfor, Limerick and Galway, Redevelopement everywhere, Small Tunnels that cost a Billion and a couple of luas lines that cost multiples of that.

If you want to reduce funding based on taxes being collected, may I suggest apportioning Debt on where it was generated...
I'm sure the per capita amount of debt that originated in Dublin is much more than Donegal, lets make people pay it off on that basis..

I don't think so, taking into account that Donegal has highest number of ghost estates per capita

ednwireland

Count Dooku wrote: »

I don't think so, taking into account that Donegal has highest number of ghost estates per capita

you think ??

The largest number of inactive ghost estates are in Cork county (175) followed by Wexford (115), Cavan (111) and Kerry (97).

Cork county also has the highest number of vacant units (2,363), followed by Dublin city (1,553) Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown (1,080) and Fingal (1,051).

However, Carlow, Leitrim, Longford, Cavan and Sligo have the highest proportion of vacant houses on ghost estates on a per capita basis.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/number-of-ghost-estates-decreases-170662.html#ixzz1sZ8Bnbqm

GSF

Firblog wrote: »

It's very rich of you to say lets reduce central funding now that funds are tight, during the boom when funds were washing around the country Donegal did not get anywhere near the amount of per capita funding the cities got; motorways between Dublin, Cork, Waterfor, Limerick and Galway, Redevelopement everywhere, Small Tunnels that cost a Billion and a couple of luas lines that cost multiples of that.

If you want to reduce funding based on taxes being collected, may I suggest apportioning Debt on where it was generated...
I'm sure the per capita amount of debt that originated in Dublin is much more than Donegal, lets make people pay it off on that basis..

Well Donegal got the €17m bridge to nowhere. Rather than putting a 2nd crossing over the Swilly in LK, it seemed to end up at the bottom of Fanad. Funny how that happened.

Scofflaw

GSF wrote: »

Maybe Donegal CoCo could fund a study to show the amount of tax revenue raised in Donegal (VAT, Income tax, Corp Tax, etc) versus the amount spent on services.

If they are serious about the arguement that what comes from Donegal should stay in Donegal, lets see where that leaves them

Highest per-capita net subsidy in the country, last time I looked at the CSO figures - something like €2k per person annually.

cordially,
Scofflaw

n97 mini

Godge wrote: »

This motion was passed by the elected councillors who are not public servants but are elected by the public.

Paid by the public = public servant, elected or otherwise.

Firblog wrote: »

It's very rich of you to say lets reduce central funding now that funds are tight, during the boom when funds were washing around the country Donegal did not get anywhere near the amount of per capita funding the cities got;

Did it generate as much money as the cities do?

Firblog wrote: »

motorways between Dublin, Cork, Waterfor, Limerick and Galway, Redevelopement everywhere, Small Tunnels that cost a Billion and a couple of luas lines that cost multiples of that.

Are you arguing that Donegal should also have Luas, a motorway to Dublin, and small tunnels?

Firblog wrote: »

If you want to reduce funding based on taxes being collected, may I suggest apportioning Debt on where it was generated...

Dublin subsidises Donegal. Donegal does not generate enough income to fund itself.

I get kind of fed up of the attitude that seems to only come out of Donegal. Between VRT, the household charge, and everyone seemingly shopping in NI, no-one seems to want to pay for anything, yet there is never a complaint that the dole is too high, despite a 75% unemployment rate among young men in the county, the highest in the country.

n97 mini

Scofflaw wrote: »

Highest per-capita net subsidy in the country, last time I looked at the CSO figures - something like €2k per person annually.

cordially,
Scofflaw

There was a lad on Pat Kenny in the last 12 months some time, and he calculated the net subsidy per person on the western seaboard to be around €4k, while at the same time those in the greater Dublin area are paying out on average €4k more in taxes than they are getting services for.

Firblog

Scofflaw wrote: »

Highest per-capita net subsidy in the country, last time I looked at the CSO figures - something like €2k per person annually.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Any Chance you'd point us to where you looked so that we can have a peek at what they term 'services'?

n97 mini wrote: »

Paid by the public = public servant, elected or otherwise.


Did it generate as much money as the cities do?.

No we don't generate as much, not even on a per capita basis, but we also have much less spent on infrastructure on a per capita basis.

examples

Dublin Bus Sub Cost: €75,000,000 pa X 10 = €750,000,000
Luas lines Cost= €798,000,000
Dublin Port Tunnel Cost= €752,000,000
Ballymun Regeneration Cost= €900,000,000


Total €3,200,000,000

n97 mini wrote: »

Are you arguing that Donegal should also have Luas, a motorway to Dublin, and small tunnels?.

Now that would just be silly.. Decent Internal roads, and good links to the rest of the country would suffice.

n97 mini wrote: »

Dublin subsidises Donegal. Donegal does not generate enough income to fund itself.

How do you think Dublin Subsidises us? Would that be on the same basis of the CSO figures mentioned by Scofflaw? A little link would help..

n97 mini wrote: »

I get kind of fed up of the attitude that seems to only come out of Donegal. Between VRT, the household charge, and everyone seemingly shopping in NI, no-one seems to want to pay for anything, yet there is never a complaint that the dole is too high, despite a 75% unemployment rate among young men in the county, the highest in the country.

I have to say I’m absolutely gobsmacked by the unemployement figures you’ve mentioned. I had no idea it was so high, that is scandalous.

Having briefly scanned the information on the link you provided, I see that Donegal has joint highest with Louth, and

“In a further eleven counties, concentrated in three regions – Border, Midlands and South-East – the estimated number of young men signing on is between one half and two thirds”

now ask yourself why this is so... could it be the it be the lack of govt spend in the regions compared to Dublin?

OR

Could it be that the majority of the civil & public service (permanent, highly paid and recession proof ) jobs are based in Dublin? (No withstanding the ill fated decentralization) with the consequent benefit to consumer demand in the region?

I notice that you've not mentioned the Debt...

Oh and by the way I have paid VRT, never shop in the North ( more than me do that or do you think all the shops here survive on air) , pay for everything and do think the dole is too high

n97 mini wrote: »

There was a lad on Pat Kenny in the last 12 months some time, and he calculated the net subsidy per person on the western seaboard to be around €4k, while at the same time those in the greater Dublin area are paying out on average €4k more in taxes than they are getting services for.

Aye, everytime I catch Pat Kenny's show on TV or radio there is usually some lad talking shoite too, I'd switch off if I were you...

n97 mini

Firblog wrote: »

How do you think Dublin Subsidises us?

Do you feel that all the revenue raised in Donegal is enough to be able to fund all the services provided in Donegal?

Count Dooku

ednwireland wrote: »

you think ??

yes



http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2012/04/20120416StateoftheNation_PlanningSystem.pdf

ardmacha

There is no doubt that Donegal receives a net subsidy. But since people contrived deliberately to banjax its economy by partitioning the country this is not surprising. And whatever about history, there continues to be deliberate policies to disadvantage border areas.

That said, I wonder how the Ballymun Regeneration Cost of €900,000,000 compares will the entire public housing budget in the entire BMW area, for instance.

Firblog

An Taisce... Oh that body.. controlled by people who live in cities and have holiday homes in the country; near which they don't want locals to build; in short a discredited organisation.

Can you say what they've based their figures on? Do holiday homes make up part of the housing stock? I.e. Does a vacant holiday home count as part of the housing stock & being vacant at the same time? Not many holiday homes in South Dublin...

Also there is nothing to say that this Vacant housing stock has become part of the vast debt we are struggling under, whereas if you look here you'll see how many Donegal Properties are undergoing NAMA enforced sales compared to those in Dublin; and with average prices in Dublin way in excess of those in Donegal, then property in Dublin would be the cause of a much higher debt burden than Nama'd properties in Donegal.

Which was my point... If people want to cut the central funds going to Donegal in ratio to the payment of the household charge, then as Dublin (people & companies based there) has generated vastly more debt than Donegal (as above) then let repayments on these debts be based on that ratio too..

n97 mini

Firblog wrote: »

Dublin (people & companies based there) has generated vastly more debt than Donegal

It also generates vastly more income than Donegal. In fact Dublin 15 probably generates more income that Donegal.

Count Dooku

Firblog wrote: »

Can you say what they've based their figures on? Do holiday homes make up part of the housing stock? I.e. Does a vacant holiday home count as part of the housing stock & being vacant at the same time? Not many holiday homes in South Dublin...

but a lot of investment properties own by people from outside of Dublin

Firblog wrote: »

Which was my point... If people want to cut the central funds going to Donegal in ratio to the payment of the household charge, then as Dublin (people & companies based there) has generated vastly more debt than Donegal (as above) then let repayments on these debts be based on that ratio too..

Do you mean use 2,000 subsidy to pay debt quicker?

ednwireland

Count Dooku wrote: »

yes

you said ghost estates i see no mention of ghost estates on that graph, ience know many people who have left for jobs abroad hence empty houses (something d4 an taisce would know nothing about)

Firblog

Count Dooku wrote: »

but a lot of investment properties own by people from outside of Dublin


Do you mean use 2,000 subsidy to pay debt quicker?

Please elaborate, I don't understand your first point? Do you mean that Dublin people bought holiday/investment homes in Donegal? What does that have to do with anything??

Ah the 2000 again.. you still haven't provided any links to tell us where you pulled this figure from, or was did you only hear half the Pat Kenny story n97 mini was on about?

n97 mini

Firblog wrote: »

Ah the 2000 again.. you still haven't provided any links to tell us where you pulled this figure from,

Use search. Figures for the whole country were posted on this forum by a boards mod about a month ago.

doc_17

There are lots of us in Donegal who are embarrassed by the politicians that are elected in our county. Unfortunately, we are in the minority.

The arguement though of "does donegal generate enough money by iself" is an interesting one though. A nation's resources are usually shared out nationally. Whether it's people, water, food, etc.

Godge

n97 mini wrote: »

Paid by the public = public servant, elected or otherwise.


.

If you do not understand the distinction between being elected to an office (an office-holder) and being an employee of a public service body (a public servant), that is fine.

Firblog

n97 mini wrote: »

There was a lad on Pat Kenny in the last 12 months some time, and he calculated the net subsidy per person on the western seaboard to be around €4k, while at the same time those in the greater Dublin area are paying out on average €4k more in taxes than they are getting services for.

n97 mini wrote: »

Use search. Figures for the whole country were posted on this forum by a boards mod about a month ago.

Why don't you use it, you should be sure of your figures before posting.. Is it the €2000 supposedly posted by some mod the correct ones? or the €4000 - you swore by above - the ones you want to use in this discussion?
Please make your mind up and let us know when you have

Scofflaw

Firblog wrote: »

Why don't you use it, you should be sure of your figures before posting.. Is it the €2000 supposedly posted by some mod the correct ones? or the €4000 - you swore by above - the ones you want to use in this discussion?
Please make your mind up and let us know when you have

I should probably just put these in a sticky:

These are the 2007 figures:

County|CAP|Recipients|Per Recipient|Pop|CAP/capita|Personal Tax/Capt|Total Tax €m|Transfers €m|Net €m|Net/Capita|Net + EU

Carlow|37780624.3|2040|18519.91|45845|824.09|1355|190|244|54|1177.88|2001.98
Cavan|67061232.83|5185|12933.7|56416|1188.69|1564|253|273|20|354.51|1543.2
Clare|84633475.03|6689|12652.63|103333|819.04|1485|496|463|-33|-319.36|499.68
Cork|237628799.9|14387|16516.91|448181|530.21|1676|2306|2205|(101)|-225.36|304.85
Donegal|96295832.23|8777|10971.38|137383|700.93|620|461|733|272|1979.87|2680.8
Dublin|23390165.7|869|26916.19|1122600|20.84|4289|7805|5404|-2401|-2138.78|-2117.95
Galway|151082275.76|13403|11272.27|208826|723.48|1964|1009|1071|62|296.9|1020.38
Kerry|110172226.36|8532|12912.83|132424|831.97|2447|499|612|113|853.32|1685.29
Kildare|41508533.31|2355|17625.7|163995|253.11|1626|1131|735|-396|-2414.71|-2161.6
Kilkenny|74607598.46|3651|20434.84|80421|927.71|1987|373|364|-9|-111.91|815.8
Laois|51015041.05|2887|17670.61|58732|868.61|609|284|265|-19|-323.5|545.1
Leitrim|39208803.34|3987|9834.16|25815|1518.84|2845|107|140|33|1278.33|2797.16
Limerick|77978817.76|5754|13552.11|175529|444.25|1817|875|953|78|444.37|888.62
Longford|33320587.99|2651|12569.06|31127|1070.47|944|135|177|42|1349.31|2419.78
Louth|26880258.45|1679|16009.68|101802|264.04|1273|472|528|56|550.09|814.13
Mayo|119112211.99|12312|9674.48|117428|1014.34|840|452|580|128|1090.03|2104.37
Meath|64919345.69|3823|16981.26|133936|484.7|1204|935|557|-378|-2822.24|-2337.54
Monaghan|54120148.48|4283|12636.04|52772|1025.55|865|217|246|29|549.53|1575.08
Offaly|49969431.31|3012|16590.12|63702|784.42|1995|278|302|24|376.75|1161.18
Roscommon|66381705.75|5924|11205.55|53803|1233.79|547|226|247|21|390.31|1624.1
Sligo|44541636.53|4440|10031.9|58178|765.61|1681|262|284|22|378.15|1143.76
Tipperary|144473163.12|7825|18463.02|140281|1029.88|927|613|699|86|613.06|1642.94
Waterford|55091572.69|2661|20703.33|101518|542.68|1277|470|518|48|472.82|1015.5
Westmeath|54058614.37|3521|15353.2|72027|750.53|6833|338|356|18|249.91|1000.44
Wexford|84120094.78|4565|18427.18|116543|721.79|937|503|629|126|1081.15|1802.94
Wicklow|38283190.87|2214|17291.41|114719|333.71|1274|717|512|-205|-1786.98|-1453.26

Those include the EU's CAP payments, but not the corresponding GNI-based payments, which would increase the contribution of the main urban counties. A positive figure means a net recipient. When I get a chance, I'll break out the capital spending part of the above.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Firblog

Cheers

Could you post a link to where these figures came from please? These figures without some background info are not very informative imo

ednwireland

The top ten officials in Donegal County Council earn more than €1 million a year, new figures released show.

http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local/1m-for-top-officials-1-3716703

hmmm

doc_17 wrote: »

A nation's resources are usually shared out nationally. Whether it's people, water, food, etc.

A lot of countries have local taxes which go directly to the local area. Local areas are free to set the rate too, which has interesting implications. We're such a parochial nation I think it's a system that would work brilliantly in Ireland - if people in D4 want to pay 10 grand a year in local taxes and have concierge services for all, well and good. Similarly if the people in Donegal are happy to have effluent flowing down the middle of the street and pay no local taxes, happy out for them too.

n97 mini

Godge wrote: »

If you do not understand the distinction between being elected to an office (an office-holder) and being an employee of a public service body (a public servant), that is fine.

If you do not understand being paid out of the public purse makes you a servant of that same public, that is fine.

Scofflaw

Firblog wrote: »

Cheers

Could you post a link to where these figures came from please? These figures without some background info are not very informative imo

CSO Regional income figures 2007: http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/economy/2007/regincome_2007.pdf

These are the comparable 2009 figures (CSO), with CAP from here, GNI contribution based on household income without taxes or transfers:

County|Pop|Transfers(m)|Taxes(m)|Transfers pp|Taxes pp|CAP(m)|CAP pp|GNI pp|Final Net pp
Carlow|54255|368|191|6782.79|3520.41|37.78|696.35|206.77|3751.96
Cavan|68585.68|397|250|5788.38|3645.08|67.06|977.77|212.75|2908.33
Clare|114922.3|652|488|5673.4|4246.35|84.62|736.32|232.88|1930.49
Cork|502128.26|2984|2337|5942.7|4654.19|237.63|473.24|251.33|1510.43
Donegal|157838.27|1056|444|6690.39|2813.01|96.3|610.09|170.67|4316.81
Dublin|1211506.83|7175|7965|5922.38|6574.46|23.74|19.6|323.44|-955.92
Galway|241232.03|1493|1032|6189.06|4278.04|151.08|626.29|240.34|2296.98
Kerry|145875.68|861|511|5902.29|3502.98|109.82|752.84|203.01|2949.13
Kildare|205969.74|1017|1158|4937.62|5622.19|41.51|201.53|289|-772.04
Kilkenny|94325.11|513|377|5438.64|3996.81|74.61|790.96|226.34|2006.45
Laois|72128.96|397|283|5504.03|3923.53|51.02|707.28|223.77|2064.01
Leitrim|31038.66|200|107|6443.58|3447.31|39.21|1263.22|207.8|4051.69
Limerick|190673.58|1309|824|6865.14|4321.52|77.98|408.96|235.93|2716.65
Longford|36954.84|257|131|6954.43|3544.87|33.32|901.66|200.34|4110.88
Louth|119233.16|777|462|6516.64|3874.76|26.88|225.44|227.13|2640.2
Mayo|128974.54|818|454|6342.34|3520.07|119.11|923.53|207.75|3538.05
Meath|180031.48|799|963|4438.11|5349.06|64.92|360.58|279.09|-829.46
Monaghan|60018.88|352|194|5864.82|3232.32|54.12|901.72|190.84|3343.39
North-Tipperary|68376.48|424|277|6200.96|4051.1|72.23|1056.35|231.4|2974.82
Offaly|76204.29|442|267|5800.2|3503.74|49.97|655.73|203.32|2748.87
Roscommon|61178.29|347|224|5671.95|3661.43|66.38|1085.05|216.22|2879.35
Sligo|65289.94|407|265|6233.73|4058.82|44.54|682.21|231.19|2625.94
South-Tipperary|89663.76|555|354|6189.79|3948.08|72.23|805.56|223.35|2823.92
Waterford|116320.65|774|454|6654.02|3903|55.09|473.62|218.27|3006.36
Westmeath|85325.95|533|334|6246.63|3914.4|54.06|633.55|219.92|2745.86
Wexford|141932.52|921|497|6489|3501.66|84.12|592.68|206.48|3373.53
Wicklow|139510.07|716|724|5132.25|5189.59|38.28|274.41|265.19|-48.12

So, Donegal people are net recipients from the whole system to the tune of €4,316.81 per capita annually. I should perhaps point out that I don't begrudge this transfer, but I do object very strongly to people at the other end pretending it doesn't happen.

It's unrealistic to expect somewhere like Donegal to be able to pay its own way in a modern economy - the costs of providing infrastructure and services per person are very much higher than they are in an urban area like Dublin, while for standard geographical reasons it's not going to attract the same mass of businesses as Dublin.

How about if the counties paid their own way? The following table shows income/capita with taxes and transfers, without, and each in turn as a proportion of Dublin income:

County|A. Income pp|B. Income w/o tax/transfer|A/Dublin|B/Dublin
Carlow|23426.41|20164.04|0.76|0.64
Cavan|22891.08|20747.77|0.74|0.66
Clare|24138.05|22711|0.78|0.72
Cork|25798.19|24509.67|0.84|0.78
Donegal|20521.01|16643.62|0.66|0.53
Dublin|30890.46|31542.54|1|1
Galway|25349.04|23438.02|0.82|0.74
Kerry|22196.98|19797.68|0.72|0.63
Kildare|27499.19|28183.75|0.89|0.89
Kilkenny|23514.42|22072.59|0.76|0.7
Laois|23402.53|21822.03|0.76|0.69
Leitrim|23261.31|20265.05|0.75|0.64
Limerick|25551.52|23007.91|0.83|0.73
Longford|22946.93|19537.36|0.74|0.62
Louth|24791.76|22149.88|0.8|0.7
Mayo|23082.07|20259.81|0.75|0.64
Meath|26306.51|27217.46|0.85|0.86
Monaghan|21243.32|18610.81|0.69|0.59
North-Tipperary|24716.1|22566.24|0.8|0.72
Offaly|22124.74|19828.28|0.72|0.63
Roscommon|23096.43|21085.91|0.75|0.67
Sligo|24720.5|22545.59|0.8|0.71
South-Tipperary|24023.08|21781.38|0.78|0.69
Waterford|24037|21285.99|0.78|0.67
Westmeath|23779.4|21447.17|0.77|0.68
Wexford|23123.66|20136.33|0.75|0.64
Wicklow|25804.59|25861.93|0.84|0.82

cordially,
Scofflaw

Firblog

I can fully understand that Donegal recieves subsidies and have not argued otherwise; alas I do not pretend to understand the exact basis on how these figures are reached; I would however ask were the following taken into account when deriving these figures.

The benefit accrued from having a much higher precentage (per capita) of civil/public servants based in the capital? 100 = €5million benefit pa to local economy...
The benefits of the large infrastructural investments - Port Tunnel, Luas Lines etc
Subsidies to Dublin Transport services

Also I doubt if these figures took into account the interest we are paying on NAMA debts incurred by people/companies based in the capital compared to those (debts) generated in the regions.

Icepick

Council ignored damning report in paying extra €90,000 to firm

A CONSULTANCY firm was paid a further €90,000 by a council despite a damning internal audit that questioned its lavish expenses and found that some of the advice given was available for free on the internet.

A special internal report raised serious questions over Donegal County Council's payments of more than €2.4m to a London-based company, One Sigma Limited.
...
Despite his recommendation in his report in June 2010 that these expenses and others totalling thousands of euro should be recouped from One Sigma, they never were.

The auditor also discovered €180,000 in payments to the company were paid in advance of work carried out, in breach of normal council policies

Money was well spent, says former chief

"In relation to the tendering process, I have made it clear that there was no one else available at that time to do this sort of work," said Mr McLoone, who now sits on the Board of Enterprise Ireland.
...
The council had claimed a reduction in staff at the council by 100 in 2009 was a result of the new work practices recommended by One Sigma.
This claim was roundly dismissed by the auditor.

Scofflaw

Firblog wrote: »

I can fully understand that Donegal recieves subsidies and have not argued otherwise; alas I do not pretend to understand the exact basis on how these figures are reached; I would however ask were the following taken into account when deriving these figures.

The benefit accrued from having a much higher precentage (per capita) of civil/public servants based in the capital? 100 = €5million benefit pa to local economy...

That would be covered by the household wealth.

Firblog wrote: »

The benefits of the large infrastructural investments - Port Tunnel, Luas Lines etc

Yes - capital spending is not included, but you're rather forgetting the motorways and roads all round the country there. On a per-capita basis I think you'll find that road expenditure adds heavily to rural subsidies.

Firblog wrote: »

Subsidies to Dublin Transport services

And you're forgetting subsidies to rural transport there. Virtually the entire rural bus and train network is loss-making. On a per-capita basis, I think you'll find this adds heavily to the rural subsidy.

Firblog wrote: »

Also I doubt if these figures took into account the interest we are paying on NAMA debts incurred by people/companies based in the capital compared to those (debts) generated in the regions.

Actually, I think you'll find the disparity is not that large in terms of the properties involved:

http://www.nama.ie/about-our-work/properties-enforced/terms-of-use/

And that's before we get onto the fact that quite a lot of large construction/development companies are based outside Dublin.

These points are fair enough, but they're not going to change the picture sufficiently to reverse the situation, not by a long chalk. Social transfers amount to €26bn annually, while the capital budget is much less than that, is not by any means concentrated in Dublin, and is funded, again, by taxes largely drawn from the capital region.

These are just geographic facts. There's no implication in them that people in Donegal are somehow spongers, or work-shy, or anything like that - Donegal is just too remote to be either a business hub or even a commuter belt for one, and the population is dispersed over distances that make service provision expensive. It does mean, though, that living in Donegal is something that can only begin to approach the material standards of life closer to the capital by virtue of transfers from the capital.

If we were to add in a valuation of the non-material aspects of living in Donegal compared to Dublin, we would, however, almost certainly find that they were roughly equivalent, which is what keeps people in Donegal. There's more to life than money.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Firblog

I'm afraid I really cannot get my head around the figures that you are putting up here; Donegal receives roughly €690,000,000 in wealth transfer from the rest of the country every year? (€4300 X 160,000)

All I can think now is.....where is my share???

K-9

Firblog wrote: »

I'm afraid I really cannot get my head around the figures that you are putting up here; Donegal receives roughly €690,000,000 in wealth transfer from the rest of the country every year? (€4300 X 160,000)

All I can think now is.....where is my share???

I think the problem is you are looking at it from a "what do I see for it?" point of view. The starting base is "what does Donegal give to the exchequer?"

As Scoflaw points out, there are more important things than money so don't take it too personally! Only 4 counties are net payers, even counties with large population centers are recipients.