Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

jm08 · 19-04-2012 02:01PM

Lelantos wrote: »

I'm not so sure. We had 2 short term arrivals, Chambers & Tokula. Now can anyone say that we don't have anybody in the A squad better than the latter? Leinster got Thorn in the meantime, I know its not like for like, but do you ever see us getting a Devilliers again, we no longer speak of Conrad Smith as we know that won't happen.
Can't really blame the coaching set up for our lack of props, we have a relatively small pool of players coming thru compared to Leinster, that's why they stuck with Buckley for so long, I agree that in the near future we have to keep looking for NIQ props

BJ & Howlett are Munster's glamour signings. When both of them leave, there is a chance Munster will get another marquee name. Chambers could have worked out, but i'd say the climate got to him more than anything else.

I bet the phone would get answered with either Penney or Umaga making the call. I think Sonny Bill is a big fan of Umagas

(he had him in Toulon).

totallegend · 19-04-2012 02:12PM

jm08 wrote: »

BJ & Howlett are Munster's glamour signings. When both of them leave, there is a chance Munster will get another marquee name. Chambers could have worked out, but i'd say the climate got to him more than anything else.

I've heard a lot of excuses for foreign players not making the grade at the provinces; injury, lack of motivation, homesickness, but this is a new one on me.

Could you not just admit that he was sh*t?

Amazotheamazing · 19-04-2012 02:15PM

totallegend wrote: »

I've heard a lot of excuses for foreign players not making the grade at the provinces; injury, lack of motivation, homesickness, but this is a new one on me.

Could you not just admit that he was sh*t?

Chambers was actually pretty decent, and has been going well in league for Melbourne since he returned, but I'd say it was more than one or two things that made him move home (and back to league). I'd have been happy to have him as some sort of project player.

ed7890 · 19-04-2012 02:18PM

Ya, I thought Chambers was good. I would have liked him to stay on if he could.

jm08 · 19-04-2012 02:19PM

totallegend wrote: »

I've heard a lot of excuses for foreign players not making the grade at the provinces; injury, lack of motivation, homesickness, but this is a new one on me.

Could you not just admit that he was sh*t?

No he wasn't ****. And from what I read is doing reallly well back in league. The lad was used to playing rugby (which affects the way the game is played) in far better weather conditions.He wouldnt be the first player from Australia or SA to find the going hard here.

Lelantos · 19-04-2012 02:28PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't see who else Munster could have gotten tbh... This is a strong list.

I'm hoping that was tongue in cheek. I felt sure that McGeechan would have been an option for a season or 2, but, its not to be

Foxtrol · 19-04-2012 02:29PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I haven't changed my tune in the slightest, of the three that we know of, one is one of the best young coaches in Ireland and one is one of the best coaches of the NPC in the pro era. Who do you have in mind?

I got into this discussion with you first after you claimed that Munster could spend any money they liked on a coach as the IRFU would happily foot the bill. This was after Lelantos stated that Kirwan, Smith or even EOS were names were bandied about by fans and the media when the vacancy was announced but that these might not have been viable given the financial situation that Munster finds itself in. Given that you think Munster have a bottomless pit of money waiting for them from the IRFU I’d pick any of these three (to name a few) over the current shortlist (but the exception being that I might possibly pick Penney over EOS).

In response to this I expect the points to be made that these would either cost too much or would not be interested in the Munster job, which was my earlier point and the argument will have gone full circle.

irishbucsfan · 19-04-2012 02:32PM

Lelantos wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't see who else Munster could have gotten tbh... This is a strong list.

I'm hoping that was tongue in cheek. I felt sure that McGeechan would have been an option for a season or 2, but, its not to be

Because McGeechan has been so succesful at club level recently?

Penney is as good a candidate as there is. If Foley beats him it just shows how highly rated he is by the recruitment panel.

Amazotheamazing · 19-04-2012 02:36PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

I got into this discussion with you first after you claimed that Munster could spend any money they liked on a coach as the IRFU would happily foot the bill. This was after Lelantos stated that Kirwan, Smith or even EOS were names were bandied about by fans and the media when the vacancy was announced but that these might not have been viable given the financial situation that Munster finds itself in. Given that you think Munster have a bottomless pit of money waiting for them from the IRFU I’d pick any of these three (to name a few) over the current shortlist (but the exception being that I might possibly pick Penney over EOS).

In response to this I expect the points to be made that these would either cost too much or would not be interested in the Munster job, which was my earlier point and the argument will have gone full circle.

Wayne Smith ruled himself out, EOS seemingly wasn't wanted and Kirwan hasn't been all that successful as a coach. You might rate him but nothing about Kirwan says he's such a good coach he'd be worth chasing, imo.

totallegend · 19-04-2012 02:41PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Chambers was actually pretty decent, and has been going well in league for Melbourne since he returned, but I'd say it was more than one or two things that made him move home (and back to league). I'd have been happy to have him as some sort of project player.

Yeah, don't dispute any of that, just ridiculous to say it was the climate that made him perform so poorly for Munster.

Amazotheamazing · 19-04-2012 02:43PM

totallegend wrote: »

Yeah, don't dispute any of that, just ridiculous to say it was the climate that made him perform so poorly for Munster.

I don't think he did perform poorly, I'm homesick for Australia's climate and I was only backpacking there.

Foxtrol · 19-04-2012 02:46PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Wayne Smith ruled himself out, EOS seemingly wasn't wanted and Kirwan hasn't been all that successful as a coach. You might rate him but nothing about Kirwan says he's such a good coach he'd be worth chasing, imo.

But I dont understand that if, as you claim, Munster were offering top money and they were the most attractive job for an ambitious coach in world rugby why would Smith rule himself out? :rolleyes:

At minimum EOS would have a been great for the backs and if he wasn’t performing in a year/two years it could then be time to hand the reins to a more experienced Foley.

Kirwan has has a better CV than Umaga or Foley so I don’t see how they’d be worth chasing and Kirwan isn’t.

Lelantos · 19-04-2012 02:49PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't see who else Munster could have gotten tbh... This is a strong list.

I'm hoping that was tongue in cheek. I felt sure that McGeechan would have been an option for a season or 2, but, its not to be

Because McGeechan has been so succesful at club level recently?

Penney is as good a candidate as there is. If Foley beats him it just shows how highly rated he is by the recruitment panel.

McGeechan is an excellent man manager, his record isn't half bad I think you would agree, muchbetter than Umaga anyways

irishbucsfan · 19-04-2012 03:06PM

Lelantos wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't see who else Munster could have gotten tbh... This is a strong list.

I'm hoping that was tongue in cheek. I felt sure that McGeechan would have been an option for a season or 2, but, its not to be

Because McGeechan has been so succesful at club level recently?

Penney is as good a candidate as there is. If Foley beats him it just shows how highly rated he is by the recruitment panel.

McGeechan is an excellent man manager, his record isn't half bad I think you would agree, muchbetter than Umaga anyways

He's done nothing under the current rules though. His two most recent stints at Gloucester and Bath were poor. Especially Bath.

thomond2006 · 19-04-2012 03:08PM

It's well documented at this stage that McGeechan needs a hard b*stard like Edwards, Gatland or Telfer with him.

Amazotheamazing · 19-04-2012 03:10PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

But I dont understand that if, as you claim, Munster were offering top money and they were the most attractive job for an ambitious coach in world rugby why would Smith rule himself out? :rolleyes:

At minimum EOS would have a been great for the backs and if he wasn’t performing in a year/two years it could then be time to hand the reins to a more experienced Foley.

Kirwan has has a better CV than Umaga or Foley so I don’t see how they’d be worth chasing and Kirwan isn’t.

Even allowing for your exaggeration, Smith seemingly doesn't want to be a head coach right now.

What's so great about Kirwan's cv?

Do you really believe money is a big factor in who Munster choose?

Podge_irl · 19-04-2012 03:28PM

I think Kirwan did well at Italy and japan and had them playing good rugby considering. I think he would be a good appointment, but he has no club coaching experience to speak of and coached two international teams were it was hard to judge how well he was doing as expectations were rock bottom. I wouldn't call him an outstanding candidate or anything.

Foxtrol · 19-04-2012 04:04PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Even allowing for your exaggeration, Smith seemingly doesn't want to be a head coach right now.

What's so great about Kirwan's cv?

Do you really believe money is a big factor in who Munster choose?

Exaggeration? You’ve stated: “It doesn't really matter if Munster make or lose money as we're underwritten by the IRFU” and “There isn't an ambitious coach in the world who wouldn't love the chance to bring Munster back to the top level”.

I didn’t say there was anything that great about Kirwan’s CV, just that it was better than Umaga and Foley’s. I don’t know about you but I’d rate a coach with over 10 years experience, including two national sides (admittedly not top tier), over a guy with 3 years coaching experience (none as a head coach) and a guy with about 4 years experience (most while also still playing).

As I said earlier, money is part of the formula as to whether a coach would want a job. You seem to think any coach would love to come to Munster and that they are able to offer top levels of pay but from the shortlist they’ve come back with this clearly isn’t the case. If you’re looking at it from a realistic point of view the Munster job has several negatives that would put off some candidates and the money offered isn’t able to compete with a number of other clubs then I would agree it’s a fine list of up and coming coaches, who could do very well. I don’t want to drag this discussion on any longer as it appears that we are simply coming from two opposite positions and neither of us is going to give.

marienbad · 19-04-2012 04:12PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Exaggeration? You’ve stated: “It doesn't really matter if Munster make or lose money as we're underwritten by the IRFU” and “There isn't an ambitious coach in the world who wouldn't love the chance to bring Munster back to the top level”.

I didn’t say there was anything that great about Kirwan’s CV, just that it was better than Umaga and Foley’s. I don’t know about you but I’d rate a coach with over 10 years experience, including two national sides (admittedly not top tier), over a guy with 3 years coaching experience (none as a head coach) and a guy with about 4 years experience (most while also still playing).

As I said earlier, money is part of the formula as to whether a coach would want a job. You seem to think any coach would love to come to Munster and that they are able to offer top levels of pay but from the shortlist they’ve come back with this clearly isn’t the case. If you’re looking at it from a realistic point of view the Munster job has several negatives that would put off some candidates and the money offered isn’t able to compete with a number of other clubs then I would agree it’s a fine list of up and coming coaches, who could do very well. I don’t want to drag this discussion on any longer as it appears that we are simply coming from two opposite positions and neither of us is going to give.

May I ask what exactly is your point though ? Other than seeming to disagree with one poster in particular I just don't see what you are getting at ?

The Jaw · 19-04-2012 04:33PM

Ok, so I am just going to put it out there.....Is Munster really a good career move for a coach right now?

Hear me out. We all know that there is a great fan base. A coach might see that as a "demanding" fan base. Within the next 3 years say, they will lose POC,DOC,ROG,Strings, Wally,TOL,Howlett,MOD, MH, Mafi ( and maybe the like of Leamy, Varley etc) together with Quinny, Bull and a few other recently gone. A new coach might see it as a job that won't allow him rebuild because of the pressure from the fans. Also the mooted IRFU 1 NIQ rule and the fact that the Internationals are away for big chunks of the time makes it look unattractive. This together with the relatively small salary on offer and the player management rules.
I am just saying that it might look like a job that will be massively attractive when Zebo,Sherry and all are 26/27 and there is some new steel in the pack, but right now it might, just might appear like taking over in Man Utd when Fergie finally goes.
Also, Schmidt in Leinster is being hailed as an absolute hero right now. He was the assistant coach in a team that bottled many many big occassions. Is that any more or less attractive than a guy who coached in the Provincial cup and the NZ U-20's??

NikNak8 · 19-04-2012 04:39PM

I think the shortlist is good and would be happy with any of them providing they have the right support staff around them. Not sure about Umanga as head coach though, but would love to see him as backs coach. Himself and Howlett could really bring our young guys on leaps and bounds.
As has been said earlier I don't really see much better out there and deffo nobody worth chasing. The munster coach needs to buy into the culture of the team and the passion of the supporters I don't wan't some money hungry highest bidder mercenary. What we need is some one who will be willing to get down and dirty and will understand what the Jersey means. Former All Blacks know exactly what this is about!!

Clegg · 19-04-2012 04:49PM

Penney seems like the obvious choice for Head Coach. He has been successful in New Zealand and has the most experience amongst the 3 candidates.

However, I can easily see Munster giving the job to Foley. That would be a mistake imo. Thornley wrote that appointing Penney would "step on the toes" of Foley. Thats an absolutely ridiculous assertation. Throwing Foley, a man with only a few years experience into the head coach role at one of Europes biggest clubs is taking a huge gamble.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 19-04-2012 04:56PM

The Jaw wrote: »

Ok, so I am just going to put it out there.....Is Munster really a good career move for a coach right now?

Hear me out. We all know that there is a great fan base. A coach might see that as a "demanding" fan base. Within the next 3 years say, they will lose POC,DOC,ROG,Strings, Wally,TOL,Howlett,MOD, MH, Mafi ( and maybe the like of Leamy, Varley etc) together with Quinny, Bull and a few other recently gone. A new coach might see it as a job that won't allow him rebuild because of the pressure from the fans. Also the mooted IRFU 1 NIQ rule and the fact that the Internationals are away for big chunks of the time makes it look unattractive. This together with the relatively small salary on offer and the player management rules.
I am just saying that it might look like a job that will be massively attractive when Zebo,Sherry and all are 26/27 and there is some new steel in the pack, but right now it might, just might appear like taking over in Man Utd when Fergie finally goes.
Also, Schmidt in Leinster is being hailed as an absolute hero right now. He was the assistant coach in a team that bottled many many big occassions. Is that any more or less attractive than a guy who coached in the Provincial cup and the NZ U-20's??

The top and most ambitious coaches want to have a mark on the team they produce. I can't see any ambitious coach wanting to walk into a team that has already been build for him.

Munster rugby is a huge brand with an equally large supporter base. The pressure will be huge, but there are little jobs bigger in club rugby than attempting to return Munster to the European force they once were. The meddling of the IRFU and the cluster**** of operating out of two bases are negatives, but they are just two more obstacles to overcome.

Any coach with ambitions of success just has to look how McGahan has gone from a relative failure as a head-coach in his time in Munster, to second in command of the second best team in the world. The coach before him (Kidney) experienced unrivaled success and was rewarded with the top job of a top international team.

Its one of the reasons why I feel that the three top contenders for the post appear to be young and highly ambitious coaches. The role holds little interest for the likes of Smith who can already have any job in world rugby and would rather concern himself with coaching; leaving the administration to someone else. However, for young ambitious coaches, success at Munster is clearly a stepping stone to the top jobs in the sport.

phog · 19-04-2012 08:13PM

@Foxtrol, we're/you're talking in a vacuum unless you or someone with the correct info can tell us what is the cost of the coaching tickets in the 4 provinces so that we can compare like with like.

Foxtrol · 19-04-2012 08:20PM

phog wrote: »

@Foxtrol, we're/you're talking in a vacuum unless you or someone with the correct info can tell us what is the cost of the coaching tickets in the 4 provinces so that we can compare like with like.

Before you try to turn this into a provincial pissing contest here's a direct quote from me earlier "I don’t believe when it comes to attracting the top tier coaches they are in a strong enough position to compete with International, French or even some English sides as some posters seem to believe. At the same time I don’t think any of the provinces are that position either".

phog · 19-04-2012 08:53PM

I'm not turning it into anything but from what I've seen over the last few pages is pure speculation about finances and coaches.

marienbad · 19-04-2012 09:18PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Before you try to turn this into a provincial pissing contest here's a direct quote from me earlier "I don’t believe when it comes to attracting the top tier coaches they are in a strong enough position to compete with International, French or even some English sides as some posters seem to believe. At the same time I don’t think any of the provinces are that position either".

What are you basing this belief on ?

Foxtrol · 19-04-2012 10:16PM

marienbad wrote: »

What are you basing this belief on ?

The only definite facts available to posters on here - who the provinces have brought in as their head coach in the recent past. Of the appointments over the last number of years how many could be classed at the time they signed up as top tier?

Foxtrol · 19-04-2012 10:19PM

phog wrote: »

I'm not turning it into anything but from what I've seen over the last few pages is pure speculation about finances and coaches.

Speculation on boards... never :rolleyes:

marienbad · 20-04-2012 01:49AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

The only definite facts available to posters on here - who the provinces have brought in as their head coach in the recent past. Of the appointments over the last number of years how many could be classed at the time they signed up as top tier?

So what exactly are we meant to extrapolate from that piece of info or even non info ? And what exactly defines 'top tier' ?

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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