Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Foxtrol · 19-04-2012 11:11AM

jm08 wrote: »

There were rumours about Wayne Smith - but he declined to interview for the England head coach job saying that he didn't want to be a Head Coach as he couldn't stand all the admin work and preferred to just coach.

On Munster's finances foxy - Munster have revenue streams outside of rugby such as hiring out Thomond Park for games that other provinces don't have such as holding the Ireland A match in the AIs. There have been soccer matches there in the past like sunderland on pre-season tour, special olympics events, Ireland played australia, and rugby league world cup this year.

One of these events should cover the cost of a 2 year contract for the coaching staff.

Fitzgerald has been quoted as the lack of these sort of events are the reason as to why there is a loss this year.

I don’t want it to come across as if I think that Munster are in a dire financial situation but at the same time I don’t believe when it comes to attracting the top tier coaches they are in a strong enough position to compete with International, French or even some English sides as some posters seem to believe. At the same time I don’t think any of the provinces are that position either and if Munster choose wisely they could unearth another gem like Schmidt.

19-04-2012 11:13AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Fitzgerald has been quoted as the lack of these sort of events are the reason as to why there is a loss this year.

I don’t want it to come across as if I think that Munster are in a dire financial situation but at the same time I don’t believe when it comes to attracting the top tier coaches they are in a strong enough position to compete with International, French or even some English sides as some posters seem to believe. At the same time I don’t think any of the provinces are that position either and if Munster choose wisely they could unearth another gem like Schmidt.

It's not finances that are stopping them. Potential coaches must see that there is a poison pill to swallow when taking on the role.

Perhaps an outrageous financial package would attract a top coach in spite of that pill, but even still, I think that we may well see a "temporary" / butcher style coach for the next 1-2 seasons, before Axel takes the reigns.

Otacon · 19-04-2012 11:16AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not finances that are stopping them. Potential coaches must see that there is a poison pill to swallow when taking on the role.

Perhaps an outrageous financial package would attract a top coach in spite of that pill, but even still, I think that we may well see a "temporary" / butcher style coach for the next 1-2 seasons, before Axel takes the reigns.

What poison pill though?

A team at its lowest ebb with fan expectations quite low.
A decent team that is just performing poorly
A number of experienced players to call on
A talented set of youngsters coming through

19-04-2012 11:24AM

Otacon wrote: »

What poison pill though?
A team at its lowest ebb with fan expectations quite low.

A decent team that is just performing poorly

A number of experienced players to call on

A talented set of youngsters coming through

All of the above. Can you see any coach making a massive difference over the course of just 12 months?

The experienced players need to be slowly but confidently edged out by the younger generation, all of whom need time to become the players we hope they can.

It's not going to be an easy period for anyone to be at the helm for.

Fwiw, you can word all of those sentences differently to see the other side.
A team desperate to bounce back, with a fanbase looking for them to do so
A team that was top of the world recently but has been slowly coming off the boil and are on the wrong path currently.
An age profile that isn't primed for an easy bedding in period, as all the experience is heavily weighted on the oldest shoulders.
A group of unproven but hungry players below.

Amazotheamazing · 19-04-2012 11:25AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Fitzgerald has been quoted as the lack of these sort of events are the reason as to why there is a loss this year.

I don’t want it to come across as if I think that Munster are in a dire financial situation but at the same time I don’t believe when it comes to attracting the top tier coaches they are in a strong enough position to compete with International, French or even some English sides as some posters seem to believe. At the same time I don’t think any of the provinces are that position either and if Munster choose wisely they could unearth another gem like Schmidt.

Strange sentiment. Every coach who wants to be a top level coach believes in himself enough to be bigger than the players. There isn't an ambitious coach in the world who wouldn't love the chance to bring Munster back to the top level, except for those already coaching at the top level.

Munster are a big draw because they've a decent pool of Int players, a decent youth team coming through, a big brand name etc.

Amazotheamazing · 19-04-2012 11:26AM

Deleted User wrote: »

All of the above. Can you see any coach making a massive difference over the course of just 12 months?

The experienced players need to be slowly but confidently edged out by the younger generation, all of whom need time to become the players we hope they can.

It's not going to be an easy period for anyone to be at the helm for.

Fwiw, you can word all of those sentences differently to see the other side.

but again, all challenges a top coach would relish. The guys who go for these gigs aren't the ones who want easy tenures.

Otacon · 19-04-2012 11:28AM

Deleted User wrote: »

All of the above. Can you see any coach making a massive difference over the course of just 12 months?

The experienced players need to be slowly but confidently edged out by the younger generation, all of whom need time to become the players we hope they can.

It's not going to be an easy period for anyone to be at the helm for.

Fwiw, you can word all of those sentences differently to see the other side.

I can see where you are coming from but any coach with ambition should be looking at the above and seeing a huge opportunity to advance their career.

You mention that it will be difficult, but there is a huge fanbase ready to embrace anyone who does do it. This is a position where the right coach could make a name for themselves.

19-04-2012 11:35AM

Otacon wrote: »

I can see where you are coming from but any coach with ambition should be looking at the above and seeing a huge opportunity to advance their career.

You mention that it will be difficult, but there is a huge fanbase ready to embrace anyone who does do it. This is a position where the right coach could make a name for themselves.

But, they have to be painfully aware that there is certainly going to be some short term pain. It's not always easy to go out to a group of fans and say "Look, we're building here, it's not going to be pretty for a bit, please bare with us".

Andy Robinson at Scotland a pretty decent measure I think. Most Scottish fans absolutely shocked that he's still their coach, but I think that a lot of us outside of the game there think that he's started something that can be built on. How patient can the fans be?

I liken it to someone buying stocks when something is clearly on the way down, but due a bounce back up. It is not in their best interests to get involved until the "down" is finished.

That's why I think a temp coach, prepared to cut and change the team for the future, take some flak from fans etc and ultimately be replaced by the "golden torch" is a more likely outcome. It's just business.

Amazotheamazing · 19-04-2012 11:42AM

Deleted User wrote: »

But, they have to be painfully aware that there is certainly going to be some short term pain. It's not always easy to go out to a group of fans and say "Look, we're building here, it's not going to be pretty for a bit, please bare with us".

Andy Robinson at Scotland a pretty decent measure I think. Most Scottish fans absolutely shocked that he's still their coach, but I think that a lot of us outside of the game there think that he's started something that can be built on. How patient can the fans be?

I liken it to someone buying stocks when something is clearly on the way down, but due a bounce back up. It is not in their best interests to get involved until the "down" is finished.

That's why I think a temp coach, prepared to cut and change the team for the future, take some flak from fans etc and ultimately be replaced by the "golden torch" is a more likely outcome. It's just business.

But a lot of the rebuilding has been done. It's not unlikely Kilcoyne will start at prop this weekend (according to rumours around Limerick anyhow) so we'll have brought guys like Kilcoyne, Sherry, Archer, POM, TOD, Butler, DOC2.0 into our pack this season.

19-04-2012 11:45AM

"brought into pack" /= developed

That's the major issue. They've gained exposure yes, but they need to build on it. Some of those named are patently not ready to be first choice. They may or may not get there, but right now and over the next season, how many of them will be?

jm08 · 19-04-2012 11:54AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Fitzgerald has been quoted as the lack of these sort of events are the reason as to why there is a loss this year.

I don’t want it to come across as if I think that Munster are in a dire financial situation but at the same time I don’t believe when it comes to attracting the top tier coaches they are in a strong enough position to compete with International, French or even some English sides as some posters seem to believe. At the same time I don’t think any of the provinces are that position either and if Munster choose wisely they could unearth another gem like Schmidt.

Fitzgerald said it was the downturn in ticket sales during the world cup that affected Munster.

Munster didn't have an autumn international game last year either or a touring side visit like australia/NZ which are usually fairly popular and there are the tv rights from them as well.

I don't think Munster (or Leinster) for that matter go for top tier coaches - they go for coaches on the way up. When money wouldnt have been an issue, McGahan (who was 35 at the time) was preferred to Gert Smal.

McGahan has got a fairly decent job out of it in Australia as the Coaching Co-Ordinator for the wallabies. He is also now linked (along with Cheika) with the Western Force job.

Considering 4 of Munster's last coaching staff have all gone onto bigger and better things, it might be worthwhile for any ambitious coach to have Munster on their cv.

jm08 · 19-04-2012 12:01PM

Deleted User wrote: »

"brought into pack" /= developed

That's the major issue. They've gained exposure yes, but they need to build on it. Some of those named are patently not ready to be first choice. They may or may not get there, but right now and over the next season, how many of them will be?

Not enough experience to win the Heineken Cup next season, but should more than likely continue to be able to make the knockouts and play offs of both competitions over the next couple of years when BJ & Wian will have to move on.

Foxtrol · 19-04-2012 12:23PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Strange sentiment. Every coach who wants to be a top level coach believes in himself enough to be bigger than the players. There isn't an ambitious coach in the world who wouldn't love the chance to bring Munster back to the top level, except for those already coaching at the top level.

Munster are a big draw because they've a decent pool of Int players, a decent youth team coming through, a big brand name etc.

They might seem like strange sentiments from your point of view but they’re backed up by what’s happening on the ground, unless you deem the 3 undertaking final interviews this week as the three top ambitious young coaches “in the world”.

Amazotheamazing · 19-04-2012 01:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

"brought into pack" /= developed

That's the major issue. They've gained exposure yes, but they need to build on it. Some of those named are patently not ready to be first choice. They may or may not get there, but right now and over the next season, how many of them will be?

Some like Archer aren't ready to be first choice, some like POM are pushing into Irish squads. Obviously they aren't the finished product but I'm pointing out the rebuilding process is well underway.

Amazotheamazing · 19-04-2012 01:23PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

They might seem like strange sentiments from your point of view but they’re backed up by what’s happening on the ground, unless you deem the 3 undertaking final interviews this week as the three top ambitious young coaches “in the world”.

Sigh, not all applicants were interviewed.

Otacon · 19-04-2012 01:24PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

They might seem like strange sentiments from your point of view but they’re backed up by what’s happening on the ground, unless you deem the 3 undertaking final interviews this week as the three top ambitious young coaches “in the world”.

Was Schmidt the best in the world before he got the Leinster job. No, but look at him now.

Whatever about Umaga, Penney is a decent coach.

Foxtrol · 19-04-2012 01:28PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Sigh, not all applicants were interviewed.

So some of the top ambitious young coaches “in the world” but Munster Blazers shortlisted the three they did. Come off it.

Foxtrol · 19-04-2012 01:34PM

Otacon wrote: »

Was Schmidt the best in the world before he got the Leinster job. No, but look at him now.

Whatever about Umaga, Penney is a decent coach.

To quote myself "if Munster choose wisely they could unearth another gem like Schmidt." Penney, Foley or even Umaga could possibly turn out the same results as Schmidt, the response you quoted from me was refering to Amazotheamazing thinking that every top, ambitious coach in the world was falling over themselves to take over at Munster, when there is absolutely no evidence to back this up.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 19-04-2012 01:35PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Sigh, not all applicants were interviewed.

Do you want EOS to get an interview then?

Amazotheamazing · 19-04-2012 01:37PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

So some of the top ambitious young coaches “in the world” but Munster Blazers shortlisted the three they did. Come off it.

You've absolutely no idea who applied but one of the best NPC coaches was picked, one of Ireland's top number 8's and one of NZ's leading backs. It's not a bad shortlist but you probably feel there's a Junior Cup coach from the Leinster's schools comp who should have been given a look-in.

jm08 · 19-04-2012 01:37PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

So some of the top ambitious young coaches “in the world” but Munster Blazers shortlisted the three they did. Come off it.

Name a few you think should be in the frame and are not being interviewed.

Amazotheamazing · 19-04-2012 01:38PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Do you want EOS to get an interview then?

Yep, would definitely have let him make a pitch for the job, but, let's be clear, we don't know for definite who was and who wasn't called.

irishbucsfan · 19-04-2012 01:40PM

I don't see who else Munster could have gotten tbh... This is a strong list.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 19-04-2012 01:43PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Yep, would definitely have let him make a pitch for the job, but, let's be clear, we don't know for definite who was and who wasn't called.

EOS was denied an interview I'm pretty sure I heard that from a media person I would trust

Lelantos · 19-04-2012 01:43PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

These are legitimate concerns about the financial future of our club when it comes to our ability to attract top coaches & top players, I don't find it boring :-)

We can attract top players, albeit within the rules of the NIQ limitation. We have to have two NIQ props now because our Academy did an awful job at sourcing replacements for Horan and Hayes (Tim and Dave Ryan, Tony Buckley etc) and because one of the better prospects, Darragh Hurley, is injury prone and will probably have to retire.

I'm not so sure. We had 2 short term arrivals, Chambers & Tokula. Now can anyone say that we don't have anybody in the A squad better than the latter? Leinster got Thorn in the meantime, I know its not like for like, but do you ever see us getting a Devilliers again, we no longer speak of Conrad Smith as we know that won't happen.
Can't really blame the coaching set up for our lack of props, we have a relatively small pool of players coming thru compared to Leinster, that's why they stuck with Buckley for so long, I agree that in the near future we have to keep looking for NIQ props

GerM · 19-04-2012 01:46PM

Someone that a lot of people probably wouldn't have been delighted to see but I think is an excellent head coach is Dean Richards and he was available until very recently. He'd have toughened up the younger members of the pack quickly and I think he'd have fit in very well down there. Let him bring in a good backs coach and leave Foley as defence coach and working with the forwards alongside Richards. Think Munster missed out there.

Foxtrol · 19-04-2012 01:55PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

You've absolutely no idea who applied but one of the best NPC coaches was picked, one of Ireland's top number 8's and one of NZ's leading backs. It's not a bad shortlist but you probably feel there's a Junior Cup coach from the Leinster's schools comp who should have been given a look-in.

I said that the candidate should fall into the criteria of being experienced and preferably with a focus on backs coaching. What they have come to is two great ex-players with limited coaching experience and a forwards focused NPC coach, who was overlooked for Super Rugby head coach opportunities. Again I’m not saying any or all of these mightn’t turn out great for Munster.

You’ve changed your tune a bit, moving from the original statement that the top ambitious coaches in the world were knocking down Munsters door to “It's not a bad shortlist” (which I agree with btw).

Amazotheamazing · 19-04-2012 01:59PM

Lelantos wrote: »

I'm not so sure. We had 2 short term arrivals, Chambers & Tokula. Now can anyone say that we don't have anybody in the A squad better than the latter? Leinster got Thorn in the meantime, I know its not like for like, but do you ever see us getting a Devilliers again, we no longer speak of Conrad Smith as we know that won't happen.
Can't really blame the coaching set up for our lack of props, we have a relatively small pool of players coming thru compared to Leinster, that's why they stuck with Buckley for so long, I agree that in the near future we have to keep looking for NIQ props

I actually think we've finally gotten good props coming through, Kilcoyne and Ryan have been good for Munster A, and Archer is showing some signs of progress.

As for signing big players, yes, I'm fairly sure we'll still be competitive. I doubt either of our props were cheap.

armchaircoach · 19-04-2012 02:00PM

What always struck me as weird was the fact that whoever the new coach is, he is stuck with new signings made only a few weeks before he takes over, with no input from himself as to the direction that he wants to take the team in.

I know you have to sign guys when they are available, but when you know your changing coaching personnel, maybe its best to wait and let them rebuild the squad in their vision.

Amazotheamazing · 19-04-2012 02:01PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

I said that the candidate should fall into the criteria of being experienced and preferably with a focus on backs coaching. What they have come to is two great ex-players with limited coaching experience and a forwards focused NPC coach, who was overlooked for Super Rugby head coach opportunities. Again I’m not saying any or all of these mightn’t turn out great for Munster.

You’ve changed your tune a bit, moving from the original statement that the top ambitious coaches in the world were knocking down Munsters door to “It's not a bad shortlist” (which I agree with btw).

I haven't changed my tune in the slightest, of the three that we know of, one is one of the best young coaches in Ireland and one is one of the best coaches of the NPC in the pro era. Who do you have in mind?

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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