The coping class - Any place for a new political party?

legendary.xix · 16-04-2012 12:31PM #1

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anne-harris-the-coping-class-is-cast-out-we-need-a-stake-in-our-country-3016986.html

Having read the article above a few months a go, I was wondering is there a place for a party to represent this group defined some years ago by Eoghan Harris in the Sunday Independent as "the coping class" or recently by The Irish Times as "the squeezed middle".

If there is a party claiming to represent this group already, they clearly are not being heard, not being listened to or simply are not getting their word out and the support required.

Reading stories today regards Credit Union survey highlighting financial struggles as over 1.6 million people in Ireland now have just €100 to spare at the end of each month, according to new research carried out by the Irish League of Credit Unions (ILCU).

Firstly, I'd like to hear a straight answer from politicians in government on how they can justify squeezing that group any more for money? Secondly there will be well educated an intelligent people within the coping class group. It'd be great to see a political movement by people of this group for this group of people, working for the people.

16-04-2012 12:33PM

The Labour Party?

benway · 16-04-2012 12:41PM

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

The Labour Party?

It should be their natural role ... if principles meant anything to the parliamentary party. Then again, it remains to be seen if there isn't going to be some kind of development there in the not too distant future.

Manach · 16-04-2012 12:50PM

Surely the Labour party are have their natural support base in the public sector unions with their support of the CPA.

Gurgle · 16-04-2012 12:55PM

Manach wrote: »

Surely the Labour party are have their natural support base in the public sector unions with their support of the CPA.

4 posts in... BINGO
Its just too easy.

Permabear · 16-04-2012 01:14PM

This post has been deleted.

16-04-2012 01:18PM

Manach wrote: »

Surely the Labour party are have their natural support base in the public sector unions with their support of the CPA.

Do these people not represent a sizable portion of this 'Coping Class'?

legendary.xix · 16-04-2012 01:23PM

Essentially I'm looking for a group to give the coping class a clear voice.

Gurgle · 16-04-2012 01:35PM

legendary.xix wrote: »

Essentially I'm looking for a group to give the coping class a clear voice.

But what would you want that voice to say?

Its easy to throw around ignorant nonsense about public sector workers (overpaid), bankers(criminals), dole scroungers(lazy), mortgage defaulters(stupid to buy at the peak), union reps(unrealistic), elected officials(corrupt), students(drunk), the Germans(evil), the French(arrogant), the Brittish(800 years).

But unless someone comes along with a sensible suggestion and actually knows what they're talking about then the bottom line is the same for the country as for every over-stretched household: Put up, Shut up, Pay your bills, Pay your debts.

Valmont · 16-04-2012 02:03PM

Gurgle wrote: »

Put up, Shut up, Pay your bills, Pay your debts.

That sounds like the preferred mentality for a slave.

legendary.xix · 16-04-2012 02:35PM

The word "voice" is not to be taken literally. It's to do with representing people but also along the lines of what you say regards comes along with a sensible suggestion and actually knowing what they're talking about.

Politics is to serve the people. We're not always going to be pleased with decisions granted e.g. the household charge but if you have a look around Europe and other countries these forms of charges or community taxes are there already. The coping class have to pay there bills etc. and naturally people have to pay their debts. If people are debt free though and have not contributed to the countries downfall, it is wrong for them to be squeezed out due to the mistakes of others. All groups need a voice. If the current set-up isn't providing that, a new democratic group for these people is required.

Gurgle · 16-04-2012 03:06PM

Valmont wrote: »

That sounds like the preferred mentality for a slave.

In what way?
I don't think household bills, increased taxation or repaying borrowed money ever had much relevance to the standard of living enjoyed by slaves.

These issues are all much more relevant to.... drumroll...

.
.
.

The coping class:P

kippy · 16-04-2012 03:26PM

The coping class is one of these terms that is very fuzzy and grey. There are people from all walks of live that could be put into it.
I dont think any party would be able to appeal to such a broad base.

legendary.xix · 16-04-2012 03:39PM

kippy wrote: »

The coping class is one of these terms that is very fuzzy and grey. There are people from all walks of live that could be put into it.
I dont think any party would be able to appeal to such a broad base.

The article makes a good attempts to describe the coping class: Our lead story today paints a shocking picture of how our lower and middle earners are bearing the full brunt of the austerity. Over the last year those earning between €17,543 and €20,000 paid more than double the previous year's tax. Those earning between €20,000 and €30,000 pay over one third more. And those between €40,000 and €50,000 pay nearly a quarter more.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anne-harris-the-coping-class-is-cast-out-we-need-a-stake-in-our-country-3016986.html

There is a place for a party. It's a matter of the right people.

16-04-2012 03:44PM

legendary.xix wrote: »

The article makes a good attempts to describe the coping class: Our lead story today paints a shocking picture of how our lower and middle earners are bearing the full brunt of the austerity. Over the last year those earning between €17,543 and €20,000 paid more than double the previous year's tax. Those earning between €20,000 and €30,000 pay over one third more. And those between €40,000 and €50,000 pay nearly a quarter more.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anne-harris-the-coping-class-is-cast-out-we-need-a-stake-in-our-country-3016986.html

There is a place for a party. It's a matter of the right people.

You're skipping the part about how generous the tax-bands were to these same groups before. So generous, in fact, that many people were paying nothing.

kippy · 16-04-2012 03:48PM

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You're skipping the part about how generous the tax-bands were to these same groups before. So generous, in fact, that many people were paying nothing.

Indeed, this is the point.
What was mentioned in the article are not figures as such,
Double, Third, Quarter - doesnt really contextualise anything, nor does it take into account outgoings.
Many many people fall into these pigeon holes, from various backgrounds, and various jobs. I dont think one political party can appeal to so many.

legendary.xix · 16-04-2012 04:19PM

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You're skipping the part about how generous the tax-bands were to these same groups before. So generous, in fact, that many people were paying nothing.

I'd agree with that re. tax-bands, the point has not been made of yet as this is an on-going discussion... The question has to be asked though, are any of the current parties representing this group fairly. If a group does not, surely the solution is for a group that does. Not just constant complaining about the current government or those that don't even vote at all.

goose2005 · 16-04-2012 09:36PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Ignores that the Irish cost of living is also one of the highest in the world, and there have already been cuts to public pay.

The coping class is one of these terms that is very fuzzy and grey. There are people from all walks of live that could be put into it.
I dont think any party would be able to appeal to such a broad base.

It's just a glittering generality, basically the same as "ordinary decent people", "hard-working families"

16-04-2012 09:45PM

kippy wrote: »

The coping class is one of these terms that is very fuzzy and grey. There are people from all walks of live that could be put into it.
I dont think any party would be able to appeal to such a broad base.

You could define it pretty simply as the people who buy the Independent, I don't remember seeing any attempt to argue that such a group exists outside of the Indo's pages.

ArmaniJeanss · 16-04-2012 11:33PM

legendary.xix wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anne-harris-the-coping-class-is-cast-out-we-need-a-stake-in-our-country-3016986.html

Having read the article above a few months a go, I was wondering is there a place for a party to represent this group defined some years ago by Eoghan Harris in the Sunday Independent as "the coping class" or recently by The Irish Times as "the squeezed middle".

If there is a party claiming to represent this group already, they clearly are not being heard, not being listened to or simply are not getting their word out and the support required.

Reading stories today regards Credit Union survey highlighting financial struggles as over 1.6 million people in Ireland now have just €100 to spare at the end of each month, according to new research carried out by the Irish League of Credit Unions (ILCU).

Firstly, I'd like to hear a straight answer from politicians in government on how they can justify squeezing that group any more for money? Secondly there will be well educated an intelligent people within the coping class group. It'd be great to see a political movement by people of this group for this group of people, working for the people.

I think its naive to expect there to be a party/political movement which could encompass this group of people.

Because some of the coping class almost certainly see FG as a safe solid pair of hands. They don't like what is happening, they don't like being cash strapped at the end of the month, but they believe the people in power currently are best to steer a course through it.

Whilst others would prefer the methods of SWP/ULA and SF and their ideas of playing extreme hardball with the Troika and the EU in general.

Another group doubtless think FG is on the right path but needs to go quicker with more welfare cuts, abandoning the CPA etc.

And there's probably some who think the only way the country will get back on its feet is when Fianna Fail regain their rightful place as the governing party.

So how do you go about building a party with these different opinions?

Jimoslimos · 16-04-2012 11:53PM

In Ireland we don't have well-defined classes of people, compared to say England. The closest divide perhaps might be rural vs urban - but even that is fairly fluid.

IMO it's a bad thing when political parties concentrate on one demographic.

Memnoch · 17-04-2012 06:55AM

As a public sector worker in the medical profession with a take home pay of 2,400 euros per month I certainly don't feel overpaid.

In the UK it would be closer to 3,500 sterling.

In the states with the same level of experience as I have it would be close to 100,000+ per year with a lot less tax.

In Canada with a couple more years experience and training it would be anywhere from 300-400k p.a.

I'm sick to death of people like permabear attacking public sector workers as a generality. Yes there are some at the top that are overpaid and overprotected. But the vast majority work hard to provide important services that countless people rely on and make just about enough money to make ends meet.

The truth is that most people in both the public sector and private sector are struggling equally. It is those at the top, in both sectors that are taking advantage and riding the gravy train. But the divide and conquer folks don't want you to think about that. Just turn your frustration towards the other guy across the road who is really no different from you except they have the label of 'Public sector/unionised worker,' on their backs.

spank_inferno · 17-04-2012 08:26AM

Memnoch wrote: »

As a public sector worker in the medical profession with a take home pay of 2,400 euros per month I certainly don't feel overpaid..

What do you do for a living Memnoch?

(just to give perspective on your salary comparisons)

legendary.xix · 17-04-2012 01:53PM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I think its naive to expect there to be a party/political movement which could encompass this group of people.

Because some of the coping class almost certainly see FG as a safe solid pair of hands. They don't like what is happening, they don't like being cash strapped at the end of the month, but they believe the people in power currently are best to steer a course through it.

Whilst others would prefer the methods of SWP/ULA and SF and their ideas of playing extreme hardball with the Troika and the EU in general.

Another group doubtless think FG is on the right path but needs to go quicker with more welfare cuts, abandoning the CPA etc.

And there's probably some who think the only way the country will get back on its feet is when Fianna Fail regain their rightful place as the governing party.

So how do you go about building a party with these different opinions?

I don't accept its naive. Granted some of the group might look to FG but not everyone. In a democracy, there's always room for an alternative. if the right group, with the right people come along with the right manifesto, I don't accept that they can't find a place in Irish politics.

We see some groups protesting at the moment. Many others aren't happy but I can't see them protesting. There is a place for a new group. Whether it will happen is hard to see.

ArmaniJeanss · 17-04-2012 03:01PM

legendary.xix wrote: »

I don't accept its naive. Granted some of the group might look to FG but not everyone. In a democracy, there's always room for an alternative. if the right group, with the right people come along with the right manifesto, I don't accept that they can't find a place in Irish politics.

We see some groups protesting at the moment. Many others aren't happy but I can't see them protesting. There is a place for a new group. Whether it will happen is hard to see.

Well if you are looking to exclude those in this 'coping class' who'd be inclined to support FG and this governments policies then fair enough - however you couldn't then dress it up as some new movement encompassing the coping class.
It would merely be representing those of the coping class who want the problems addressed in a specific way which I suspect is the SP/ULA/SF way.

And that alliance already exists, and got healthy support in the last GE (~30 seats) but not enough to have a mandate from the people to form a government. That may well change in the next election.

Icepick · 17-04-2012 04:55PM

Memnoch wrote: »

As a public sector worker in the medical profession with a take home pay of 2,400 euros per month I certainly don't feel overpaid.

In the UK it would be closer to 3,500 sterling.

In the states with the same level of experience as I have it would be close to 100,000+ per year with a lot less tax.

In Canada with a couple more years experience and training it would be anywhere from 300-400k p.a.

I'm sick to death of people like permabear attacking public sector workers as a generality. Yes there are some at the top that are overpaid and overprotected. But the vast majority work hard to provide important services that countless people rely on and make just about enough money to make ends meet.

The truth is that most people in both the public sector and private sector are struggling equally. It is those at the top, in both sectors that are taking advantage and riding the gravy train. But the divide and conquer folks don't want you to think about that. Just turn your frustration towards the other guy across the road who is really no different from you except they have the label of 'Public sector/unionised worker,' on their backs.

The simple fact is that we spend 15 billion more than we take in and most of the budget is spent on social welfare and the public sector.
So we have to lower the expenditure regardless of whether it's fair or whatever.

kippy · 17-04-2012 05:08PM

Icepick wrote: »

The simple fact is that we spend 15 billion more than we take in and most of the budget is spent on social welfare and the public sector.
So we have to lower the expenditure regardless of whether it's fair or whatever.

I would assume that the budgets of most countries are primarly spent on the same areas.
I do think there is another 3-15% in sliding income cuts that public/civil workers can and probably will have to take but that is very much a personal view and dependent on every individuals circumstances.
However this coupled with past cuts, taxation that has effected everyone, and the heavier taxes on homes and water coming down the line will absolutely stiffle anything that is left of demand in the economy.

There are no doubt areas of the public service where we simply have far too many people working and far too much duplication of roles/work. You only have to look at the political sphere for that.
While the money saved wouldn't be huge, cutting the numbers of elected representatives in the Seanad (or altogether), the Dail and at local level, as well as th number of state agencies that have people sitting on boards together with some possible cut in salaries/allowances would at least apease some people somewhat, in my opinion.
The same can be said for the criminal investigations into the banking collapse, as well as a real push for politicians who have question marks hanging over their names being investigated by a new a more powerful unit of the Gardai responsible for white collar crime (possibly tied into CAB)

Dannyboy83 · 18-04-2012 01:50AM

goose2005 wrote: »

Ignores that the Irish cost of living is also one of the highest in the world, and there have already been cuts to public pay.

eurostat figures on comparative price levels don’t back that assertion up. Whereas prices in Ireland are indeed 15% higher than in France, the single teacher above enjoys 75% more take-home pay. In Finland, prices are just 2% below Irish prices, but an Irish teacher enjoys a wage that is 54% higher than a Finnish counterpart.

.

Gurgle · 18-04-2012 08:44AM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

.

Quoting somebody else's blog what is spinning so hard it could take the plasma out of your blood doth not constitute evidence.

Dannyboy83 · 18-04-2012 09:57AM

Gurgle wrote: »

Quoting somebody else's blog what is spinning so hard it could take the plasma out of your blood doth not constitute evidence.

erm....it's Ronan Lyons - you know, the economist... (I linked the post for you, just click on the article text and it will take you to the source).

Gurgle · 18-04-2012 10:49AM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

erm....it's Ronan Lyons - you know, the economist... (I linked the post for you, just click on the article text and it will take you to the source).

erm... Ronan Lyons, the postgrad student who works for daft.ie?

The coping class - Any place for a new political party?

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