The coping class - Any place for a new political party?

legendary.xix

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anne-harris-the-coping-class-is-cast-out-we-need-a-stake-in-our-country-3016986.html

Having read the article above a few months a go, I was wondering is there a place for a party to represent this group defined some years ago by Eoghan Harris in the Sunday Independent as "the coping class" or recently by The Irish Times as "the squeezed middle".

If there is a party claiming to represent this group already, they clearly are not being heard, not being listened to or simply are not getting their word out and the support required.

Reading stories today regards Credit Union survey highlighting financial struggles as over 1.6 million people in Ireland now have just €100 to spare at the end of each month, according to new research carried out by the Irish League of Credit Unions (ILCU).

Firstly, I'd like to hear a straight answer from politicians in government on how they can justify squeezing that group any more for money? Secondly there will be well educated an intelligent people within the coping class group. It'd be great to see a political movement by people of this group for this group of people, working for the people.

The Labour Party?

benway

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

The Labour Party?

It should be their natural role ... if principles meant anything to the parliamentary party. Then again, it remains to be seen if there isn't going to be some kind of development there in the not too distant future.

Manach

Surely the Labour party are have their natural support base in the public sector unions with their support of the CPA.

Gurgle

Manach wrote: »

Surely the Labour party are have their natural support base in the public sector unions with their support of the CPA.

4 posts in... BINGO
Its just too easy.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Manach

Manach wrote: »

Surely the Labour party are have their natural support base in the public sector unions with their support of the CPA.

Do these people not represent a sizable portion of this 'Coping Class'?

legendary.xix

Essentially I'm looking for a group to give the coping class a clear voice.

Gurgle

legendary.xix wrote: »

Essentially I'm looking for a group to give the coping class a clear voice.

But what would you want that voice to say?

Its easy to throw around ignorant nonsense about public sector workers (overpaid), bankers(criminals), dole scroungers(lazy), mortgage defaulters(stupid to buy at the peak), union reps(unrealistic), elected officials(corrupt), students(drunk), the Germans(evil), the French(arrogant), the Brittish(800 years).

But unless someone comes along with a sensible suggestion and actually knows what they're talking about then the bottom line is the same for the country as for every over-stretched household: Put up, Shut up, Pay your bills, Pay your debts.

Valmont

Gurgle wrote: »

Put up, Shut up, Pay your bills, Pay your debts.

That sounds like the preferred mentality for a slave.

legendary.xix

The word "voice" is not to be taken literally. It's to do with representing people but also along the lines of what you say regards comes along with a sensible suggestion and actually knowing what they're talking about.

Politics is to serve the people. We're not always going to be pleased with decisions granted e.g. the household charge but if you have a look around Europe and other countries these forms of charges or community taxes are there already. The coping class have to pay there bills etc. and naturally people have to pay their debts. If people are debt free though and have not contributed to the countries downfall, it is wrong for them to be squeezed out due to the mistakes of others. All groups need a voice. If the current set-up isn't providing that, a new democratic group for these people is required.

Gurgle

Valmont wrote: »

That sounds like the preferred mentality for a slave.

In what way?
I don't think household bills, increased taxation or repaying borrowed money ever had much relevance to the standard of living enjoyed by slaves.

These issues are all much more relevant to.... drumroll...

.
.
.

The coping class:P

kippy

The coping class is one of these terms that is very fuzzy and grey. There are people from all walks of live that could be put into it.
I dont think any party would be able to appeal to such a broad base.

legendary.xix

kippy wrote: »

The coping class is one of these terms that is very fuzzy and grey. There are people from all walks of live that could be put into it.
I dont think any party would be able to appeal to such a broad base.

The article makes a good attempts to describe the coping class: Our lead story today paints a shocking picture of how our lower and middle earners are bearing the full brunt of the austerity. Over the last year those earning between €17,543 and €20,000 paid more than double the previous year's tax. Those earning between €20,000 and €30,000 pay over one third more. And those between €40,000 and €50,000 pay nearly a quarter more.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anne-harris-the-coping-class-is-cast-out-we-need-a-stake-in-our-country-3016986.html

There is a place for a party. It's a matter of the right people.

legendary.xix

legendary.xix wrote: »

The article makes a good attempts to describe the coping class: Our lead story today paints a shocking picture of how our lower and middle earners are bearing the full brunt of the austerity. Over the last year those earning between €17,543 and €20,000 paid more than double the previous year's tax. Those earning between €20,000 and €30,000 pay over one third more. And those between €40,000 and €50,000 pay nearly a quarter more.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anne-harris-the-coping-class-is-cast-out-we-need-a-stake-in-our-country-3016986.html

There is a place for a party. It's a matter of the right people.

You're skipping the part about how generous the tax-bands were to these same groups before. So generous, in fact, that many people were paying nothing.

kippy

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You're skipping the part about how generous the tax-bands were to these same groups before. So generous, in fact, that many people were paying nothing.

Indeed, this is the point.
What was mentioned in the article are not figures as such,
Double, Third, Quarter - doesnt really contextualise anything, nor does it take into account outgoings.
Many many people fall into these pigeon holes, from various backgrounds, and various jobs. I dont think one political party can appeal to so many.

legendary.xix

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You're skipping the part about how generous the tax-bands were to these same groups before. So generous, in fact, that many people were paying nothing.

I'd agree with that re. tax-bands, the point has not been made of yet as this is an on-going discussion... The question has to be asked though, are any of the current parties representing this group fairly. If a group does not, surely the solution is for a group that does. Not just constant complaining about the current government or those that don't even vote at all.

goose2005

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Ignores that the Irish cost of living is also one of the highest in the world, and there have already been cuts to public pay.

The coping class is one of these terms that is very fuzzy and grey. There are people from all walks of live that could be put into it.
I dont think any party would be able to appeal to such a broad base.

It's just a glittering generality, basically the same as "ordinary decent people", "hard-working families"

riffmongous

kippy wrote: »

The coping class is one of these terms that is very fuzzy and grey. There are people from all walks of live that could be put into it.
I dont think any party would be able to appeal to such a broad base.

You could define it pretty simply as the people who buy the Independent, I don't remember seeing any attempt to argue that such a group exists outside of the Indo's pages.

ArmaniJeanss

legendary.xix wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anne-harris-the-coping-class-is-cast-out-we-need-a-stake-in-our-country-3016986.html

Having read the article above a few months a go, I was wondering is there a place for a party to represent this group defined some years ago by Eoghan Harris in the Sunday Independent as "the coping class" or recently by The Irish Times as "the squeezed middle".

If there is a party claiming to represent this group already, they clearly are not being heard, not being listened to or simply are not getting their word out and the support required.

Reading stories today regards Credit Union survey highlighting financial struggles as over 1.6 million people in Ireland now have just €100 to spare at the end of each month, according to new research carried out by the Irish League of Credit Unions (ILCU).

Firstly, I'd like to hear a straight answer from politicians in government on how they can justify squeezing that group any more for money? Secondly there will be well educated an intelligent people within the coping class group. It'd be great to see a political movement by people of this group for this group of people, working for the people.

I think its naive to expect there to be a party/political movement which could encompass this group of people.

Because some of the coping class almost certainly see FG as a safe solid pair of hands. They don't like what is happening, they don't like being cash strapped at the end of the month, but they believe the people in power currently are best to steer a course through it.

Whilst others would prefer the methods of SWP/ULA and SF and their ideas of playing extreme hardball with the Troika and the EU in general.

Another group doubtless think FG is on the right path but needs to go quicker with more welfare cuts, abandoning the CPA etc.

And there's probably some who think the only way the country will get back on its feet is when Fianna Fail regain their rightful place as the governing party.

So how do you go about building a party with these different opinions?

Jimoslimos

In Ireland we don't have well-defined classes of people, compared to say England. The closest divide perhaps might be rural vs urban - but even that is fairly fluid.

IMO it's a bad thing when political parties concentrate on one demographic.

Memnoch

As a public sector worker in the medical profession with a take home pay of 2,400 euros per month I certainly don't feel overpaid.

In the UK it would be closer to 3,500 sterling.

In the states with the same level of experience as I have it would be close to 100,000+ per year with a lot less tax.

In Canada with a couple more years experience and training it would be anywhere from 300-400k p.a.

I'm sick to death of people like permabear attacking public sector workers as a generality. Yes there are some at the top that are overpaid and overprotected. But the vast majority work hard to provide important services that countless people rely on and make just about enough money to make ends meet.

The truth is that most people in both the public sector and private sector are struggling equally. It is those at the top, in both sectors that are taking advantage and riding the gravy train. But the divide and conquer folks don't want you to think about that. Just turn your frustration towards the other guy across the road who is really no different from you except they have the label of 'Public sector/unionised worker,' on their backs.

spank_inferno

Memnoch wrote: »

As a public sector worker in the medical profession with a take home pay of 2,400 euros per month I certainly don't feel overpaid..

What do you do for a living Memnoch?

(just to give perspective on your salary comparisons)

legendary.xix

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I think its naive to expect there to be a party/political movement which could encompass this group of people.

Because some of the coping class almost certainly see FG as a safe solid pair of hands. They don't like what is happening, they don't like being cash strapped at the end of the month, but they believe the people in power currently are best to steer a course through it.

Whilst others would prefer the methods of SWP/ULA and SF and their ideas of playing extreme hardball with the Troika and the EU in general.

Another group doubtless think FG is on the right path but needs to go quicker with more welfare cuts, abandoning the CPA etc.

And there's probably some who think the only way the country will get back on its feet is when Fianna Fail regain their rightful place as the governing party.

So how do you go about building a party with these different opinions?

I don't accept its naive. Granted some of the group might look to FG but not everyone. In a democracy, there's always room for an alternative. if the right group, with the right people come along with the right manifesto, I don't accept that they can't find a place in Irish politics.

We see some groups protesting at the moment. Many others aren't happy but I can't see them protesting. There is a place for a new group. Whether it will happen is hard to see.

ArmaniJeanss

legendary.xix wrote: »

I don't accept its naive. Granted some of the group might look to FG but not everyone. In a democracy, there's always room for an alternative. if the right group, with the right people come along with the right manifesto, I don't accept that they can't find a place in Irish politics.

We see some groups protesting at the moment. Many others aren't happy but I can't see them protesting. There is a place for a new group. Whether it will happen is hard to see.

Well if you are looking to exclude those in this 'coping class' who'd be inclined to support FG and this governments policies then fair enough - however you couldn't then dress it up as some new movement encompassing the coping class.
It would merely be representing those of the coping class who want the problems addressed in a specific way which I suspect is the SP/ULA/SF way.

And that alliance already exists, and got healthy support in the last GE (~30 seats) but not enough to have a mandate from the people to form a government. That may well change in the next election.

Icepick

Memnoch wrote: »

As a public sector worker in the medical profession with a take home pay of 2,400 euros per month I certainly don't feel overpaid.

In the UK it would be closer to 3,500 sterling.

In the states with the same level of experience as I have it would be close to 100,000+ per year with a lot less tax.

In Canada with a couple more years experience and training it would be anywhere from 300-400k p.a.

I'm sick to death of people like permabear attacking public sector workers as a generality. Yes there are some at the top that are overpaid and overprotected. But the vast majority work hard to provide important services that countless people rely on and make just about enough money to make ends meet.

The truth is that most people in both the public sector and private sector are struggling equally. It is those at the top, in both sectors that are taking advantage and riding the gravy train. But the divide and conquer folks don't want you to think about that. Just turn your frustration towards the other guy across the road who is really no different from you except they have the label of 'Public sector/unionised worker,' on their backs.

The simple fact is that we spend 15 billion more than we take in and most of the budget is spent on social welfare and the public sector.
So we have to lower the expenditure regardless of whether it's fair or whatever.

kippy

Icepick wrote: »

The simple fact is that we spend 15 billion more than we take in and most of the budget is spent on social welfare and the public sector.
So we have to lower the expenditure regardless of whether it's fair or whatever.

I would assume that the budgets of most countries are primarly spent on the same areas.
I do think there is another 3-15% in sliding income cuts that public/civil workers can and probably will have to take but that is very much a personal view and dependent on every individuals circumstances.
However this coupled with past cuts, taxation that has effected everyone, and the heavier taxes on homes and water coming down the line will absolutely stiffle anything that is left of demand in the economy.

There are no doubt areas of the public service where we simply have far too many people working and far too much duplication of roles/work. You only have to look at the political sphere for that.
While the money saved wouldn't be huge, cutting the numbers of elected representatives in the Seanad (or altogether), the Dail and at local level, as well as th number of state agencies that have people sitting on boards together with some possible cut in salaries/allowances would at least apease some people somewhat, in my opinion.
The same can be said for the criminal investigations into the banking collapse, as well as a real push for politicians who have question marks hanging over their names being investigated by a new a more powerful unit of the Gardai responsible for white collar crime (possibly tied into CAB)

Dannyboy83

goose2005 wrote: »

Ignores that the Irish cost of living is also one of the highest in the world, and there have already been cuts to public pay.

eurostat figures on comparative price levels don’t back that assertion up. Whereas prices in Ireland are indeed 15% higher than in France, the single teacher above enjoys 75% more take-home pay. In Finland, prices are just 2% below Irish prices, but an Irish teacher enjoys a wage that is 54% higher than a Finnish counterpart.

.

Gurgle

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

.

Quoting somebody else's blog what is spinning so hard it could take the plasma out of your blood doth not constitute evidence.

Dannyboy83

Gurgle wrote: »

Quoting somebody else's blog what is spinning so hard it could take the plasma out of your blood doth not constitute evidence.

erm....it's Ronan Lyons - you know, the economist... (I linked the post for you, just click on the article text and it will take you to the source).

Gurgle

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

erm....it's Ronan Lyons - you know, the economist... (I linked the post for you, just click on the article text and it will take you to the source).

erm... Ronan Lyons, the postgrad student who works for daft.ie?

invinciblePRSTV

'Coping class' is one of those disgusting snobbish terms, much like 'I'm a Taxpayer', propagated by those trying to mask their self-interest as the common good.

When you hear coping class mentioned then you can be sure a whinge will be attached.

Dannyboy83

Gurgle wrote: »

erm... Ronan Lyons, the postgrad student who works for daft.ie?

LOL!

Have you examined the figures and come up with a different conclusion then?:)

I'm waiting...

Gurgle

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

LOL!

Have you examined the figures and come up with a different conclusion then?:)

I'm waiting...

Yes, but its way off topic on this thread and there isn't one on the subject that isn't buried in half-informed PS bashing muck.

Dannyboy83

Gurgle wrote: »

Yes, but its way off topic on this thread and there isn't one on the subject that isn't buried in half-informed PS bashing muck.

That's your opinion, that it's "half-informed PS bashing muck" and your entitled to that opinion, but if you wish to convince anyone else - you have put forward a credible argument as to WHY that is, or at least provide a link to a credible economist.

Simply calling it muck without an explanation is no more convincing that Patrick Mercer's attack on Sean Penn.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/fe...?newsfeed=true
Tory MP and former army officer Patrick Mercer told the Daily Mail his comments were "moronic". He said: "What on earth has this got to do with Sean Penn? He's neither British nor Argentine and seems to know nothing about the situation judging by this moronic comment. A good number of his movies have been turkeys, so I suppose we shouldn't expect much better coming out of his mouth."

As I said, I'm waiting for your examination of the figures which support your conclusion that Ronan Lyons is incorrect.

This would be good news for most of people not employed in the public sector because we ought to be able to use it as evidence in arguing for a pay rise.:)

Jimoslimos

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Ronan Lyons wrote:

eurostat figures on comparative price levels don’t back that assertion up. Whereas prices in Ireland are indeed 15% higher than in France, the single teacher above enjoys 75% more take-home pay. In Finland, prices are just 2% below Irish prices, but an Irish teacher enjoys a wage that is 54% higher than a Finnish counterpart.

This is actually a pet hate of mine, percentage differences are very often poorly calculated and compared.
It's very easy to have eye-catching and misleading numbers, 2 and 75% stand out here. I suspect bad stats, give me the raw data and I'll judge.

Dannyboy83

Jimoslimos wrote: »

give me the raw data and I'll judge.

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/04/20/tackling-the-thorny-issue-of-teachers-pay/#comment-157
All my figures are taken from the OECD, from the Education at a Glance figures (Chapters B and D) and from their Taxation database (Table I.3). Full details available on request

Or you could just ask Gurgle for the raw data.

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I suspect bad stats

It's always bad stats when it comes to the public sector tho, isn't it?:rolleyes:
When is it actually not public sector bashing I wonder.............


(Actually I think the phrase 'ps bashing' and it's mutations, should be banned from the forum along with b*ards and sc*mbags)

conorhal

Gurgle wrote: »

But what would you want that voice to say?

Its easy to throw around ignorant nonsense about public sector workers (overpaid), bankers(criminals), dole scroungers(lazy), mortgage defaulters(stupid to buy at the peak), union reps(unrealistic), elected officials(corrupt), students(drunk), the Germans(evil), the French(arrogant), the Brittish(800 years).

But unless someone comes along with a sensible suggestion and actually knows what they're talking about then the bottom line is the same for the country as for every over-stretched household: Put up, Shut up, Pay your bills, Pay your debts.

Big Phil? Is that you?
No, I will not put up, shut up and bend over thank you very much.

So, here's what my voice has to say.

Gouging people for taxes and charges, independently of the income tax that they pay, on the three essentials to stay alive, food, water and shelter is immoral, so is grasping more then 50% of a persons earnings, and no, I will not be renting the roof over my head back from this incompetent government just so that it can continue to afford the lifestyle to which it has become accustomed.

You want more money from me? Put your house in order first.

Scrap the Croke 'Perk' Agreement. Apart from the moronic stupidity of paying increments to PS workers when we're in administration (If the company I worked for was in administration do you think I'd be getting an automatic pay rise this year?) The public sector is too costly, inefficient and unaffordable. If you don't think so give this a read. Take a good look at what we pay official Ireland.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/organisations-are-top-heavy-with-high-earners-189877.html it’s extremely enlightening.
If we’re paying the head librarian of Dublin more then the prime minister of Spain, something’s gone very wrong and it needs to be re-balanced.

Local government is filled with unnecessary duplication and that breeds inefficiency. Why do we have 34 local county counsels? So that there's one for everybody in the audience?
Manchester has twice the population that Ireland has, how many CoCo's do you think that they have? Get rid of all but 6 of them, this will allow for sufficient regional representation without unnecessary duplication. No more 34 fire services, no more 34 planning authorities.

Politicians, we can no longer afford your expenses and perks, get rid of them. We also pay you to a job, there should be enough expert knowledge in the civil service to aid you in doing that job, so get rid of these ‘special advisors’ there should be no need for them, if there is a need for them, get rid of the civil servants that are not up to doing the job they are supposed to be doing for your department.

Scrap FAS, It have never been anything but an ineffective tool for massaging the dole figures. If you want to give people the useful skills that they need to find gainful employment, give the money to employers to train up staff and end this nonsensical culture of businesses in Ireland skipping straight to foreign staff while telling citizens to piss off to London, New York or Brisbane and come back to them when somebody else had trained and qualified them for a job.

The dole should not constitute an alternative career path. You should not be able to get it if you’ve never worked, and the amount you get should be proportional the number of stamps you’ve accumulated. When those run out, so does your dole.

Screw the bank bondholders, we owe them nothing. If that means living within our means so be it, the above 4 points should balance the budget without much difficulty. If it means returning to the Punt, all the better, devaluation will re-establish our economic independence and make the country more competitive while weaning us off foreign imports.

Do all that, and then come back to me if you’re short, otherwise feck off.

Regards,

The Coping Classes.

Gurgle

conorhal wrote: »

Gouging people for taxes and charges, independently of the income tax that they pay, on the three essentials to stay alive, food, water and shelter is immoral
so is grasping more then 50% of a persons earnings,
Scrap the Croke 'Perk' Agreement.
The public sector is too costly, inefficient and unaffordable. If we’re paying the head librarian of Dublin more then the prime minister of Spain, something’s gone very wrong and it needs to be re-balanced.
Local government is filled with unnecessary duplication and that breeds inefficiency.
No more 34 fire services, no more 34 planning authorities.
Politicians, we can no longer afford your expenses and perks, get rid of them.
there should be enough expert knowledge in the civil service to aid you in doing that job, so get rid of these ‘special advisors’ there should be no need for them
Scrap FAS, It have never been anything but an ineffective tool for massaging the dole figures.
The dole should not constitute an alternative career path.
Screw the bank bondholders, we owe them nothing.

I've extracted the suggestions from the rant, and I completely agree with all of the above.
Taking that into consideration, I suggest you re-read my first post on this thread.

Sand

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Do these people [public sector unions] not represent a sizable portion of this 'Coping Class'?

Nah, I think members of the public sector unions are part of that other group "the most vulnerable in society".

legendary.xix

Poll shows sharp drop in satisfaction with Government

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0419/poll-shows-drop-in-satisfaction-with-government.html

Is this the start of the tide turning against the government and people scrambling looking for an alternative? Early days, only one poll. Will FG & Lab last the distance?

Will any alternative come about for people disillusioned with all parties that have been currently of have been part of government? We see and hear of campaigns against the household charge and possible protest over proposed water charges. Can a cohesive group be formed to draw support from a decent percentage off this group?

meglome

legendary.xix wrote: »

Poll shows sharp drop in satisfaction with Government

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0419/poll-shows-drop-in-satisfaction-with-government.html

Is this the start of the tide turning against the government and people scrambling looking for an alternative? Early days, only one poll. Will FG & Lab last the distance?

Will any alternative come about for people disillusioned with all parties that have been currently of have been part of government? We see and hear of campaigns against the household charge and possible protest over proposed water charges. Can a cohesive group be formed to draw support from a decent percentage off this group?

While we'd all really would love the government to be better than they are I'd read these two posts by Scofflaw and keep it in mind.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78241123&postcount=2
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78241837&postcount=4

BOHtox

legendary.xix wrote: »

Poll shows sharp drop in satisfaction with Government

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0419/poll-shows-drop-in-satisfaction-with-government.html

Is this the start of the tide turning against the government and people scrambling looking for an alternative? Early days, only one poll. Will FG & Lab last the distance?

Will any alternative come about for people disillusioned with all parties that have been currently of have been part of government? We see and hear of campaigns against the household charge and possible protest over proposed water charges. Can a cohesive group be formed to draw support from a decent percentage off this group?

FG have been consistently in or around 30% in all the polls. That means 30% of all people still think FG are the best party out there. If this falls to 25% I'd consider calling it a sharp decrease but not now. If there was an election tomorrow it’d still be a FG/Labour government!

Dr Galen

Thread is quite quickly diverging from the OP into a range of different topics.

Either stick to the initial point and take other discussions elsewhere or we'll have to look at closing this one down

Cheers

DrG