Should horse racing be banned?

My name is URL · 15-04-2012 12:25AM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Watching the race again. The horse was "hot to trot" ears pricked, tail up.Vet and dr, gave both AP and Synchronised a good once over too.

And he soldiered on even after the fall. Such gallantry. Such perseverance.

Such bloody anthropomorphism

AngryBollix · 15-04-2012 12:27AM

My name is URL wrote: »

And he soldiered on even after the fall. Such gallantry. Such perseverance.

Such bloody anthropomorphism

Learn to love racing.

Its not going anywhere

Harry Angstrom · 15-04-2012 12:45AM

My name is URL wrote: »

And he soldiered on even after the fall. Such gallantry. Such perseverance.

Such bloody anthropomorphism

Wow, that's a big word.
For somebody who "never actually watches or bets on the sport", you've become a great expert all of a sudden.

My name is URL · 15-04-2012 12:51AM

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Wow, that's a big word.
For somebody who "never actually watches or bets on the sport", you've become a great expert all of a sudden.

I don't watch or bet on American Football either, but I understand enough about it to form an opinion on it.

What's your problem with that?

Wow, that's a big word

It's not really.

gsxr1 · 15-04-2012 12:52AM

kincsem wrote: »

The problem on this thread is the people who think horses
(1) should not jump fences
(2) think they should have their leg put in plaster and recover in the horse hospital ...

... are very ignorant about the breed, its origins, who pays the bills, and what can be sorted by a vet.

If they can explain who will pay to keep 20,000+ horses as pets then imo they can follow on and explain why would they keep them as pets.

Year 2010 Ireland
STALLIONS.......240
MARES........15,345
FOALS .........7,588

YOU seem to be the ignorant one. Read back.

I was simply asking horse people why a horse has to be put down when they break a limb. It does not make sense to most and was explained in full. For all I know there is a horse hospital. Thats why I asked.

What I do know (from a friend who owns 3 horses and is sitting beside me right now) is that a horse kept as a pet does not cost 20000 a year.

Harry Angstrom · 15-04-2012 12:59AM

My name is URL wrote: »

I don't watch or bet on American Football either, but I understand enough about it to form an opinion on it.

What's your problem with that?

It's not really.

My problem is that people who know shyte-all about a subject shouldn't necessarily go spouting their half-baked opinions without informing themselves of the subject first.

And yeah, you're probably right about it not being a big word. I mean, I'm sure I use the word "anthropomorphism" at least 10 times a day in my conversations with people. :rolleyes:

calfmuscle · 15-04-2012 01:05AM

gsxr1 wrote: »

kincsem wrote: »

The problem on this thread is the people who think horses
(1) should not jump fences
(2) think they should have their leg put in plaster and recover in the horse hospital ...

... are very ignorant about the breed, its origins, who pays the bills, and what can be sorted by a vet.

If they can explain who will pay to keep 20,000+ horses as pets then imo they can follow on and explain why would they keep them as pets.

Year 2010 Ireland
STALLIONS.......240
MARES........15,345
FOALS .........7,588

YOU seem to be the ignorant one. Read back.

I was simply asking horse people why a horse has to be put down when they break a limb. It does not make sense to most and was explained in full. For all I know there is a horse hospital. Thats why I asked.

What I do know (from a friend who owns 3 horses and is sitting beside me right now) is that a horse kept as a pet does not cost 20000 a year.

Your friend should know, as a horse owner that as pray animal a horse only lies down about 30minutes a day. Because of this their broken limb never gets a chance to heal. Meaning months of prolonged agony if you attempt to heal it. Also to give the leg a chance to heal you need to lock the horse into a stable for at least 6 weeks which is mental torture for intelligent social animals.
it is NOT rich horse people who decide to put horses down. it is vets who do it for welfare reasons

Discodog · 15-04-2012 01:12AM

calfmuscle wrote: »

it is NOT rich horse people who decide to put horses down. it is vets who do it for welfare reasons

It's a shame that the same principles are not applied to Greyhounds - they are routinely killed when they break a leg even though they could make a good recovery.

gsxr1 · 15-04-2012 01:13AM

calfmuscle wrote: »

Your friend should know, as a horse owner that as pray animal a horse only lies down about 30minutes a day. Because of this their broken limb never gets a chance to heal. Meaning months of prolonged agony if you attempt to heal it. Also to give the leg a chance to heal you need to lock the horse into a stable for at least 6 weeks which is mental torture for intelligent social animals.
it is NOT rich horse people who decide to put horses down. it is vets who do it for welfare reasons

He probably does know.

It was all explained in the last few pages anyways.

I was simply asking why in previous posts and tagged by dickhead as being ignorant for not being a vet.

roy rodgers · 15-04-2012 01:14AM

calfmuscle wrote: »

Your friend should know, as a horse owner that as pray animal a horse only lies down about 30minutes a day. Because of this their broken limb never gets a chance to heal. Meaning months of prolonged agony if you attempt to heal it. Also to give the leg a chance to heal you need to lock the horse into a stable for at least 6 weeks which is mental torture for intelligent social animals.
it is NOT rich horse people who decide to put horses down. it is vets who do it for welfare reasons

Thank you for talking sense it a pity others dont understand the mental mind of an animal.

I reakon they should higher the fences and put more jumps and most importantly half the prize money, its a group 3 race with group one horses in it.

gsxr1 · 15-04-2012 01:18AM

roy rodgers wrote: »

Thank you for talking sense it a pity others dont understand the mental mind of an animal.

I reakon they should higher the fences and put more jumps and most importantly half the prize money, its a group 3 race with group one horses in it.

Why would you make it even higher?

calfmuscle · 15-04-2012 01:29AM

gsxr1 wrote: »

roy rodgers wrote: »

Thank you for talking sense it a pity others dont understand the mental mind of an animal.

I reakon they should higher the fences and put more jumps and most importantly half the prize money, its a group 3 race with group one horses in it.

Why would you make it even higher?

The fences were lowered a few years go. They also filled in the open ditches. The national has a large number of drop fences which means from the take off side the fence looks smaller with a long drip in the other side.
The result of lowering the jumps means the horses and jockeys are braver/ quicker to jump them, sometimes forgetting/misjudged the drop on the otherside.
Many people think that the big jumps makes the horses stand off more and take the jumps more carefully. Making more prepared for the drop on the otherside.

The Irish Riddler · 15-04-2012 01:31AM

BX 19 wrote: »

I've been behind the big screen that they pull over when a horse's life is been ended at the races. Not a pretty sight. The horse knows its coming even when sedated. I've also seen a young vet missing the first time and having to do the job twice.

I would have no qualms about banning it.

i thought it was an injection?

The Irish Riddler · 15-04-2012 01:34AM

Are the hurdle fences not high enough?

Havermeyer · 15-04-2012 01:42AM

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

You can really see the difference between the people who actually know horses compared to the people who only make 1 bet a year on one of the most famous races known.

And the ones who pay absolutely no attention at all to it, except if a horse unfortunately suffers a fatal injury on National day.

As someone above mentioned - where are they the other 364 days a year?

Johro · 15-04-2012 01:49AM

It's the same f#ckin thing every year, if they truly cared about the horses they wouldn't subject them to such danger. Two horses dead this time around, for what? Gambling as entertainment. I don't understand why it's still allowed to go on.

Johro · 15-04-2012 01:53AM

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

You can really see the difference between the people who actually know horses compared to the people who only make 1 bet a year on one of the most famous races known.

That's a pretty ignorant comment tbh. Also, you can really tell the people who give a shit about an animal's welfare from the ones who don't.

kincsem · 15-04-2012 01:55AM

gsxr1 wrote: »

YOU seem to be the ignorant one. Read back.

I was simply asking horse people why a horse has to be put down when they break a limb. It does not make sense to most and was explained in full. For all I know there is a horse hospital. Thats why I asked.

What I do know (from a friend who owns 3 horses and is sitting beside me right now) is that a horse kept as a pet does not cost 20000 a year.

OK.
Horses are flight animals. Their instinct is to get to their feet, and be ready to flee from danger. That is not a good idea for a horse with a broken leg. Too much weight on a narrow broken bone is not good for healing (I assume it was a broken cannon bone.) They will break the leg again.

The only horse I know that recovered from a significant break was Mill Reef, the winner of Coventry Stakes (1970), Gimcrack Stakes (1970), Dewhurst Stakes (1970), Greenham Stakes (1971), Epsom Derby (1971), Eclipse Stakes (1971), K. George VI & Q. Elizabeth Stakes (1971), Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe (1971), Prix Ganay (1972), Coronation Cup (1972).

As far as I remember Mill Reef was suspended in a sling under his midriff in a stable for months. When he was lowered he was smart enough to keep weight off the broken leg which was encased in plaster of Paris. When he recovered he became a very successful sire and generated large stud fees for about fifteen years until he died.

Wikipedia
Fully recovered Mill Reef was being trained for an Autumn campaign and a return to the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe in October when tragedy struck during a routine gallop where he stumbled and shattered his foreleg. Only great veterinary skill could save him. The colt showed remarkable temperament and patience. The racing world had lost one of its best-loved performers.

Charles Allen, a veterinary specialist was flown in, Mill Reef's fracture was a complicated one. A triangularly shaped piece of bone about two and a half inches long was broken from the lower end of the cannon bone and was considerably displaced. The inner sesamoid bone was completely shattered and the rim of the top of the main pastern bone was damaged. It seemed likely that the inner sesamoid bone was the first to break with the result the next step the fetlock was not braced and the foot and the pastern were pointing outwards. The sheer pressure of the horse's weight caused the crumbling of the rim of the Pastern bone and the breaking of the cannon bone.

It was decided that an operation would be performed in a building in Ian Balding's yard. A six-hour period was taken to place a simplified stainless-steel compression plate held by 3 screws to pin the broken pieces to the cannon bone. The injuries on the sesamoid bone or the rim of the pastern were avoided. The operation was successful. Miracles of modern veterinary science and undaunting courage had saved the life of this superstar. Professor Edwin James Roberts had performed the operation thus Mill Reef's life was saved by him. His vet John Hallam, played a major role in nursing him for three months and his relationship with this great horse and the meticulous care he took of the horse while nursing him, was one of Racing's most touching stories. After the painstaking operation he was saved and, though his racing career was over, he became a stallion at The National Stud in Newmarket.

Almost 100% of National Hunt horses are geldings and can not reproduce. The only income they produce (or can produce) for their owners is win and place money from races. All the horses in the 2012 Grand national were geldings.

Wikipedia
Battleship, in 1938, an 11-year-old became the first American-bred horse to ever win England's most prestigious steeplechase event, the Grand National. He remains the smallest horse ever to win the Grand National and the last entire horse to win it. (entire=not gelded.)

Ignorance is a word in the dictionary. It means "lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc."

I am surprised that people who know little about horseracing feel they can second-guess the owner, trainer, and vet. The people who know little believe they are caring souls and have the animal's welfare at heart. The opposite is true (caused by their ignorance.) Read the description of Mill Reef's injuries above and you will see why horses are put down.

I never said it cost 20,000 to keep a horse for a year. That is what you misunderstood from misreading my post and getting emotional. I said there are 20,000+ horses in the country (23,173 is you add up the numbers for 2010 just below where I said 20,000+.)

When a horse is badly injured the people who care for it do what is best for the animal. Hundreds of years of care for the horse has taught them what must be done as quickly as possible. They care more than the ignorant bystanders. They do not put down the horse because they enjoy it. It is the kindest thing to do.

I had a share in a horse. It broke a leg in its first race and was put down.

Saying you are sitting beside someone who has three horses. Irrelevant.

Johro · 15-04-2012 01:59AM

nummnutts wrote: »

And the ones who pay absolutely no attention at all to it, except if a horse unfortunately suffers a fatal injury on National day.

As someone above mentioned - where are they the other 364 days a year?

Not watching horses die on national television I'd guess. I don't understand why having no interest in racing disqualifies anyone from having a valid opinion. This is not an isolated incident when it comes to the Grand National race. It's a well known fact. Twenty horses died since 2000.

roy rodgers · 15-04-2012 02:00AM

gsxr1 wrote: »

Why would you make it even higher?

Its to slow the race down at the moment its going to quick, that why we had a gold cup horse in it today as the favourite!

Antiree have done their best over the last few years and its a great race and of course horses will get hurt like on the gallops every day of the week. I been on many hunts where we might have to cover 10 mile plus over all kinds of ditches in one day but we all took it in our time and all home in one piece. as my granny once said "slow and easy will win the race"

codrulz · 15-04-2012 02:02AM

this thread comes up at every racing event grand national, punchestown, the curragh and its a mostly no answer!

Da Shins Kelly · 15-04-2012 02:05AM

sheepfield wrote: »

Hello? What do you actually know about national hunt racing? The above indicates without any question the sheer ignorance and idiocy of the people who decide - once a year - to indulge in an ill-informed rant about horse racing. For me, the race today was one of the most exciting and thrilling in years. The winner put up an extraordinary performance, winning off 157, carrying 11st 6lbs and galloping right to the line. He is a french-bred former Cheltenham Gold Cup runner-up, trained by one of the sports best trainers, treated better than most people in the industry, who for seven seasons has demonstrated a great attitude to jumping and galloping. I don't buy into this "my little pony" animal rights bull**** that decrees that if a horse is injured or, unfortunately, dies in the race we should therefore ban all horse-racing or at the very least turn the worlds greatest steeplechase into a glorified hurdle race. For context, a local trainer close to me lost his best horse on the track lately: an unfortunate event whereby she broke a shoulder during a race: an injury that could not be foreseen or prevented, bar you ban the whole concept of horse racing. All connected with the horse would be hugely disappointed, from the financial point of view to the genuine feeling of loss of an animal close to their heart.
What is wrong with people nowadays? Millions of people are starving in the developing world, the economy of this country is shagged but still a few dewey-eyed idiots are hogging the media spotlight (even the mainstream media are infected) in an attempt to disrupt what is for me one of the most iconic and memorable ten minutes in all of sport.

And let me be clear: I love animals. I hate seeing them injured or abused. This does NOT happen in the grand national. For feck sake, get a grip....

If you took the time to read my other posts (which you clearly didn't) before taking off on your ill-informed rant, you'd realise that I wasn't looking to ban horse-racing, and I have been involved in the equine world for most of my life and have an active interest in the racing world, so actually I do know a bit.

The ending of the race was great, and fair play to the connections of the winning horse, and indeed to all the horses and jockeys who made it around safely. What I'm saying is that the race is very dangerous, anyone can see that, and arguing otherwise is simply making excuses for something that anyone watching the race can see, whether they're an enthusiast or not. Running 40 horses in a pack together is a hazard in itself, and then to have them running at breakneck speed at 5ft high fences is worse. The race needs to be reassessed and changes need to be made to reduce the risks. Frankly, I don't really care if you think it's the greatest ten minutes in sport. The priority is the animals and people directly involved - they're the ones being put at risk and everything should be done to make sure that horse and jockey can come out unscathed. It's one race that is becoming increasingly more uncomfortable to watch for a lot of racing enthusiasts not just "dewy-eyed idiots", and the fact that there is so much destruction in one single event every year is something that needs to be looked at. Welfare comes first. Equine sports are high risk anyway, and the set-up of the Grand National simply increases that risk.

Also, I realise that there are people starving and there are wars going on and so forth, but it's possible to be concerned about more than one issue at a time. I feel sorry for people who can't seem to balance that.

Juwwi · 15-04-2012 02:06AM

dr.bollocko wrote: »

If they were race horses and died while racing they were most likely crap horses to begin with and deserved their fate.

edit: this was a joke. Please contain your outrage until you read more of the thread.

I've read alot of stupid things on the internet but this is the worst of the lot.

If this idiot was'nt banned it makes a mockery of the rules on this forum.

gammygils · 15-04-2012 02:12AM

A definite YES for me. It's boring. It's barbaric. And dodgy dudes with long coats and hats & women with dodgy hats............. Gangsters!!

Havermeyer · 15-04-2012 02:32AM

Johro wrote: »

Not watching horses die on national television I'd guess. I don't understand why having no interest in racing disqualifies anyone from having a valid opinion. This is not an isolated incident when it comes to the Grand National race. It's a well known fact. Twenty horses died since 2000.

I'm not denying this happens. What I'm saying is, that around this time of year people who pay absolutely not attention to horse racing throughout the rest of the year come out and call for complete banning of horse racing. Claiming, in not so many words, that owners/trainers/people involved in the industry are evil, greedy capitalist pigs with absolutely no consideration for the welfare of the horses.

While 99.99999999999999999% of the time this is simply not the case.

I get absolutely no joy out of horses dying on any track, but the frenzy surrounding the national on a yearly basis is whipped up by people who, by this time next week, will have largely forgotten about it all.

15-04-2012 03:46AM

At the end of the day who gives a flying fcuk!! i hope all the dirty veggies and begrudgers rot!!

Jump racing is the sport of the gods!!!!

Patri · 15-04-2012 04:02AM

I've been to race meetings across Ireland since I was young and I find it difficult to watch horses jumping fences or hurdles anymore, because the risk of leg/shoulder/neck breaks is fairly high for horses who fall, but I don't think horse racing should be banned. If these horses (and greyhounds) weren't racing who would take care of them? I prefer to think a few dead horses at every race meeting is better than hundreds, or even thousands being abandoned. It's a crummy situation but that's life.

Nulty · 15-04-2012 04:43AM

Princess Peach wrote: »

I believe it should be banned, along with greyhound racing.

Cruelty to animals for sport and gambling pretty much disgusts me.

Sadly is never going to happen though.

Horse racing is not inherently cruel. The objective is not cruelty. The people involved in horse racing are not cruel. The horses are not treated cruelly. The horses (almost all of them) are treated extremely well - better than the beef you eat or the lamb you eat. they are loved by their owners and trainers. There are an exceptional few who do not meet the required standards but that goes for pet owners too. Would you ban owning pets to protect the few that are mistreated? Horses will not race if they don't want to. You can't make a half tonne animal do what it doesn't want to. Many horses have been retired because of their unwillingness to race. Most of them, believe it or not, enjoy racing.

Gambling is something that is done by every one every day. You gamble occasionally whether you like/know it or not. Life is the biggest gamble. How can you get ahead without taking calculated risks?

Nulty · 15-04-2012 04:47AM

kincsem wrote: »

OK.
Horses are flight animals. Their instinct is to get to their feet, and be ready to flee from danger. That is not a good idea for a horse with a broken leg. Too much weight on a narrow broken bone is not good for healing (I assume it was a broken cannon bone.) They will break the leg again.

The only horse I know that recovered from a significant break was Mill Reef, the winner of Coventry Stakes (1970), Gimcrack Stakes (1970), Dewhurst Stakes (1970), Greenham Stakes (1971), Epsom Derby (1971), Eclipse Stakes (1971), K. George VI & Q. Elizabeth Stakes (1971), Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe (1971), Prix Ganay (1972), Coronation Cup (1972).

As far as I remember Mill Reef was suspended in a sling under his midriff in a stable for months. When he was lowered he was smart enough to keep weight off the broken leg which was encased in plaster of Paris. When he recovered he became a very successful sire and generated large stud fees for about fifteen years until he died.

Wikipedia
Fully recovered Mill Reef was being trained for an Autumn campaign and a return to the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe in October when tragedy struck during a routine gallop where he stumbled and shattered his foreleg. Only great veterinary skill could save him. The colt showed remarkable temperament and patience. The racing world had lost one of its best-loved performers.

Charles Allen, a veterinary specialist was flown in, Mill Reef's fracture was a complicated one. A triangularly shaped piece of bone about two and a half inches long was broken from the lower end of the cannon bone and was considerably displaced. The inner sesamoid bone was completely shattered and the rim of the top of the main pastern bone was damaged. It seemed likely that the inner sesamoid bone was the first to break with the result the next step the fetlock was not braced and the foot and the pastern were pointing outwards. The sheer pressure of the horse's weight caused the crumbling of the rim of the Pastern bone and the breaking of the cannon bone.

It was decided that an operation would be performed in a building in Ian Balding's yard. A six-hour period was taken to place a simplified stainless-steel compression plate held by 3 screws to pin the broken pieces to the cannon bone. The injuries on the sesamoid bone or the rim of the pastern were avoided. The operation was successful. Miracles of modern veterinary science and undaunting courage had saved the life of this superstar. Professor Edwin James Roberts had performed the operation thus Mill Reef's life was saved by him. His vet John Hallam, played a major role in nursing him for three months and his relationship with this great horse and the meticulous care he took of the horse while nursing him, was one of Racing's most touching stories. After the painstaking operation he was saved and, though his racing career was over, he became a stallion at The National Stud in Newmarket.

Almost 100% of National Hunt horses are geldings and can not reproduce. The only income they produce (or can produce) for their owners is win and place money from races. All the horses in the 2012 Grand national were geldings.

Wikipedia
Battleship, in 1938, an 11-year-old became the first American-bred horse to ever win England's most prestigious steeplechase event, the Grand National. He remains the smallest horse ever to win the Grand National and the last entire horse to win it. (entire=not gelded.)

Ignorance is a word in the dictionary. It means "lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc."

I am surprised that people who know little about horseracing feel they can second-guess the owner, trainer, and vet. The people who know little believe they are caring souls and have the animal's welfare at heart. The opposite is true (caused by their ignorance.) Read the description of Mill Reef's injuries above and you will see why horses are put down.

I never said it cost 20,000 to keep a horse for a year. That is what you misunderstood from misreading my post and getting emotional. I said there are 20,000+ horses in the country (23,173 is you add up the numbers for 2010 just below where I said 20,000+.)

When a horse is badly injured the people who care for it do what is best for the animal. Hundreds of years of care for the horse has taught them what must be done as quickly as possible. They care more than the ignorant bystanders. They do not put down the horse because they enjoy it. It is the kindest thing to do.

I had a share in a horse. It broke a leg in its first race and was put down.

Saying you are sitting beside someone who has three horses. Irrelevant.

Hahaha! I was the one who added that to the wikipedia page!

:pac:

Its true by the way.

Spread · 15-04-2012 05:16AM

Yes!

Should horse racing be banned?

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