SERV - Bloodrunners

N.McCormick · 06-04-2012 12:31am #1

Hi guys just spotted these guys on an add on Channel 4 a while ago and it got me thinking who do the HSE get for this kind of work in Ireland? They are voluntary bike riders that transport blood, plasma, vaccines and these kind of things for the NHS in the UK for free, 24/7. Has anyone ever considered trying to set up something like it over here or would it help if this service was available to take pressure off the HSE? I'm not thinking of setting up such a service, I'm just curious about it.

(Mods if this should be in the Voluntary section feel free to move it)

ivabiggon · 06-04-2012 3:14am

N.McCormick wrote: »

Hi guys just spotted these guys on an add on Channel 4 a while ago and it got me thinking who do the HSE get for this kind of work in Ireland? They are voluntary bike riders that transport blood, plasma, vaccines and these kind of things for the NHS in the UK for free, 24/7. Has anyone ever considered trying to set up something like it over here or would it help if this service was available to take pressure off the HSE? I'm not thinking of setting up such a service, I'm just curious about it.

(Mods if this should be in the Voluntary section feel free to move it)

the blood transfusion service use to do it here, and then in the mid to late 90's there was a few privates, so called ambulance services, contracted to do organ transport, i remember a fella in a dressed up volvo car, with bells n whistles used to do it, but to honest i cant say, today, i only deal with 999 case's so your best bet is chatting to the HSE lads that contribute here. they might have a good insight into it, sorry if my memeory serves me correct it was a ford scorpio not a volvo

Tango Alpha 51 · 06-04-2012 3:32pm

To the best of my knowledge & I've checked with management there is no service like this provided to the HSE

kub · 06-04-2012 9:00pm

Securicor used to do some organ transport under Garda escort, when the need arose a few years ago.

goldie fish · 07-04-2012 12:54am

I'm fairly sure there is a few covering the wicklow/dublin area, but the majority of transfers are done between cork/dublin and other hospitals in those cities or other further locations.
Normal urgent transfers are done by taxi, as the motorcycle provides no real advantage, compared to the more urban UK cities.

Mycroft H · 07-04-2012 1:08am

I've heard tell of some of the private ambulances doing it or have I been told porkies?

Del2005 · 07-04-2012 1:13am

goldie fish wrote: »

I'm fairly sure there is a few covering the wicklow/dublin area, but the majority of transfers are done between cork/dublin and other hospitals in those cities or other further locations.
Normal urgent transfers are done by taxi, as the motorcycle provides no real advantage, compared to the more urban UK cities.

Your using the wrong bikers if a car can make the journey in the same time ;-)

goldie fish · 07-04-2012 10:52am

Del2005 wrote: »

Your using the wrong bikers if a car can make the journey in the same time ;-)

That's the opinion of the BTSB. Not the Bikers.

TylerIE · 12-04-2012 4:28pm

One private service does Organs.

The bloods went for contract a few years ago and a certain other private company used to do it, but I dont think so any more.

Some gets sent by courier, Most of the semi urgent stuff goes by taxi. Urgent/Emergency blood often gets taxi with Garda escort.

Drugs etc often go by taxi. A few years ago I know a certain country hospital urgently required a rarely used drug from the city and couldnt get transport. No private ambulance was available (weekend) nor was any contracted taxi. In the end the sending hospital arranged something but it was farsical the lack of a structured system for getting emergency drugs, and the cost of the methods that were employed.

There is a small group of people interested in setting up a similar service here.

ratracer · 12-04-2012 4:52pm

TylerIE wrote: »

One private service does Organs.

The bloods went for contract a few years ago and a certain other private company used to do it, but I dont think so any more.

Some gets sent by courier, Most of the semi urgent stuff goes by taxi. Urgent/Emergency blood often gets taxi with Garda escort.

Drugs etc often go by taxi. A few years ago I know a certain country hospital urgently required a rarely used drug from the city and couldnt get transport. No private ambulance was available (weekend) nor was any contracted taxi. In the end the sending hospital arranged something but it was farsical the lack of a structured system for getting emergency drugs, and the cost of the methods that were employed.

There is a small group of people interested in setting up a similar service here.

It would be a great schemd to set up here. Trained voluntary bikers ready to travel the length of the country at short notice to deliver vital meds/bloods/organs
The HSE could never run that properly, red tape will kill the idea before it ever gets off the ground. I'd like to be involved if it ever happened.

goldie fish · 12-04-2012 5:19pm

ratracer wrote: »

It would be a great schemd to set up here. Trained voluntary bikers ready to travel the length of the country at short notice to deliver vital meds/bloods/organs
The HSE could never run that properly, red tape will kill the idea before it ever gets off the ground. I'd like to be involved if it ever happened.

Same here. Most bikers are just looking for an excuse to go for a burn. If someone lives, or has a better quality of life as a result, then even better.

ivabiggon · 12-04-2012 5:34pm

TylerIE wrote: »

One private service does Organs.

The bloods went for contract a few years ago and a certain other private company used to do it, but I dont think so any more.

Some gets sent by courier, Most of the semi urgent stuff goes by taxi. Urgent/Emergency blood often gets taxi with Garda escort.

Drugs etc often go by taxi. A few years ago I know a certain country hospital urgently required a rarely used drug from the city and couldnt get transport. No private ambulance was available (weekend) nor was any contracted taxi. In the end the sending hospital arranged something but it was farsical the lack of a structured system for getting emergency drugs, and the cost of the methods that were employed.

There is a small group of people interested in setting up a similar service here.

i think the gardaí did escort taxis, but after an accident while escorting one i think that practice stopped, sure how would a taxi driver/owner explain that he was using his car as an emergency vehicle when they tipped another car, sure the insurance companies would null n void your insurance, and disown you straight away??? anything to get out of paying up.

N.McCormick · 12-04-2012 6:00pm

So would there be a lot of red tape involved in it? If there's no proper service there at the minute it would probably be worth looking into atleast and I'm sure there would be people out there more than willing to sign up to it!

bluetop · 12-04-2012 6:51pm

N.McCormick wrote: »

So would there be a lot of red tape involved in it? If there's no proper service there at the minute it would probably be worth looking into atleast and I'm sure there would be people out there more than willing to sign up to it!

There is some guys in Galway looking into setting this up, and working it the same way as the Uk Blood bikes do, i know there are lots of bikers that would like to do this, but there is a lot of commitment to doing this, you would be on call, working on a 24hr basis at least 1 day per week, inc sunday, bank holiday, xmas, dont see a problem with it myself, the funding would be a key element to it as well, and advance rider training would have to be a must, same as the AGS bikers get.

ratracer · 12-04-2012 8:33pm

bluetop wrote: »

N.McCormick wrote: »

So would there be a lot of red tape involved in it? If there's no proper service there at the minute it would probably be worth looking into atleast and I'm sure there would be people out there more than willing to sign up to it!

There is some guys in Galway looking into setting this up, and working it the same way as the Uk Blood bikes do, i know there are lots of bikers that would like to do this, but there is a lot of commitment to doing this, you would be on call, working on a 24hr basis at least 1 day per week, inc sunday, bank holiday, xmas, dont see a problem with it myself, the funding would be a key element to it as well, and advance rider training would have to be a must, same as the AGS bikers get.

Do you know who in Galway? If you don't want to put names here you could pm me.
I can imagine the insurance would be a nightmare.
Just thinking out loud here: Is there one bike that all people use when on call? Would riders be allowed use blues and twos? Would they have the same exemptions from the road traffic act as emergency service personnel?

bluetop · 13-04-2012 10:43pm

ratracer wrote: »

Do you know who in Galway? If you don't want to put names here you could pm me.
I can imagine the insurance would be a nightmare.
Just thinking out loud here: Is there one bike that all people use when on call? Would riders be allowed use blues and twos? Would they have the same exemptions from the road traffic act as emergency service personnel?

I think it was the Galway freewheelers, as for the blues could not see that happening in Ireland, the uk is totally different and are far far more advanced then Ireland will ever be in regards to traffic laws etc.

Bang Bang · 14-04-2012 11:32am

ratracer wrote: »

Would riders be allowed use blues and twos? Would they have the same exemptions from the road traffic act as emergency service personnel?

Considering the fact that retained firefighters are not allowed to respond to their stations on 'blue & twos' when their pager alerts for a fire or RTA assist, I doubt very much there's even a slim chance of any voluntary/unofficial bike service getting the go-ahead to be exempt from road traffic laws.

ratracer · 15-04-2012 1:45pm

Bang Bang wrote: »

ratracer wrote: »

Would riders be allowed use blues and twos? Would they have the same exemptions from the road traffic act as emergency service personnel?

Considering the fact that retained firefighters are not allowed to respond to their stations on 'blue & twos' when their pager alerts for a fire or RTA assist, I doubt very much there's even a slim chance of any voluntary/unofficial bike service getting the go-ahead to be exempt from road traffic laws.

In the UK the bike is marked and has blue lights fitted. It's not a similar comparision to people wanting to use then in private cars.

goldie fish · 15-04-2012 2:49pm

It is marked but could not be mistaken for either Paramedic or Police bike.

Bang Bang · 15-04-2012 4:31pm

ratracer wrote: »

In the UK the bike is marked and has blue lights fitted. It's not a similar comparision to people wanting to use then in private cars.

Retained firefighters don't simply want to use blue lights and sirens on their private cars, they are responding to life and death situations on a daily basis all over the country, yet they are not permitted to use lights & sirens when making their way to their fire station and are expected to comply with the road traffic act with no exemptions. So I doubt very much that a biker will get the go-ahead to use lights and sirens on their private bikes.

ratracer · 15-04-2012 7:27pm

Bang Bang wrote: »

ratracer wrote: »

In the UK the bike is marked and has blue lights fitted. It's not a similar comparision to people wanting to use then in private cars.

Retained firefighters don't simply want to use blue lights and sirens on their private cars, they are responding to life and death situations on a daily basis all over the country, yet they are not permitted to use lights & sirens when making their way to their fire station and are expected to comply with the road traffic act with no exemptions. So I doubt very much that a biker will get the go-ahead to use lights and sirens on their private bikes.[/Quote
It's not a private bike, it's marked, see pic above. A direct comparison would be driving the fire engine, not on getting to a fire station

Bang Bang · 15-04-2012 10:19pm

[/Quote
It's not a private bike, it's marked, see pic above. A direct comparison would be driving the fire engine, not on getting to a fire station[/QUOTE]

You're comparing a UK based set-up to the Irish setting. A direct comparison of a private bike with lights and sirens will not happen in Ireland, just the same way retained firefighters cannot use lights and sirens on private vehicles to get to the fire tender and that issue has been ongoing for many years.

You asked the question in an earlier post asking would riders be allowed to use blues and twos and have the same exemptions from the road traffic act as emergency service personnel and this is in relation to Ireland. You then compare it to a UK setting which is NO comparison.

ratracer · 16-04-2012 11:21am

This may be going a bit off thread now, and in any case it's just hypothetical, but if a service was set up, using a marked emergency vehicle, then the rider would have the same exemptions as any other marked emergency vehicle. It would be no different than any of the volunteer services such as CD, OMAC, Red Cross etc. This would be different than a person responding to a call in a private car. Would you agree?

Bang Bang · 16-04-2012 6:02pm

ratracer wrote: »

This may be going a bit off thread now, and in any case it's just hypothetical, but if a service was set up, using a marked emergency vehicle, then the rider would have the same exemptions as any other marked emergency vehicle. It would be no different than any of the volunteer services such as CD, OMAC, Red Cross etc. This would be different than a person responding to a call in a private car. Would you agree?

You are incorrect, the voluntary organisations can use blue lights and sirens on a vehicle that is classed as an ambulance and has a stretcher to carry patients. The Civil Defence also have ambulances but also respond in fire tenders. They have four wheeled drive vehicles to assist in rescue during major incidents.
A bike carrying blood is neither an ambulance or fire tender, it may become a voluntary project but the bike would not meet the requirements to be fitted with and use blue lights and sirens. The bike would not be an emergency vehicle.

The National Ambulance Service have Paramedics on motorcycle but they are a state emergency service and operate and respond to 112/999 emergency calls.

Bosh · 16-04-2012 7:13pm

As a vehicle transporting blood/organs, blue lights ARE allowed to be fitted:

Lights:

S.I. 342/2006: (18) (a) The requirements of article 40 (in so far as it refers to articles 41, 42, 48 and 49) and articles 41, 42, 48 and 49 (except sub-article 9) do not apply to a lamp complying with paragraph (b) which is carried on a vehicle being used -

(i) by a member of the Garda Síochána in the performance of his or her duties as such member,

(ii) as a fire brigade vehicle,

(iii) by persons providing an ambulance service,

(iv) by the Irish Prison Service,

(v) as an Irish Marine Emergency Service vehicle, with or without a trailer,

(vi) for the delivery or collection of human transplant organs, human blood or human blood products.

Sirens:

S.I.340/2006 28. (1) Every vehicle (other than a pedestrian controlled vehicle) shall be fitted with an audible warning device in accordance with this article capable of giving sufficient warning of the approach or position of the vehicle.

(2) A vehicle, other than a vehicle referred to in sub-article (3), shall not be fitted with a bell, gong, siren, or other strident toned device.

(3) A vehicle may be fitted with a bell, gong, siren or other strident-toned device where the vehicle is to be used -

(a) by a member of the Garda Síochána in the performance of his or her duties,

(b) as a fire brigade vehicle,

(c) by persons providing an ambulance service,

(d) by the Irish Prison Service,

(e) as an Irish Marine Emergency Service vehicle, with or without a trailer, or

(f) for the delivery or collection of human transplant organs, human blood or human blood products.

As it is not an ambulance, fire service appliance or Garda vehicle the rider does NOT have ememption from prosecution Road Traffic Act 2010:

87.- (1) Requirements under the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2010 relating to vehicles and requirements, restrictions and prohibitions relating to the driving and use of vehicles, other than those provided under sections 49, 50, 51A, 52 and 53 of the Principal Act, sections 12, 13 and 15 of the Act of 1994 and sections 4 , 5 , 12 and 14 of this Act, do not apply to-

(a) the driving or use by a member of the Garda Síochána, an ambulance service or a fire brigade of a fire authority (within the meaning of the Fire Services Act 1981 ) of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of that member, or

(b) a person driving or using a vehicle under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána, where such use does not endanger the safety of road users.

(2) Section 27 of the Act of 2004 is repealed.

I have snipped out a lot of other stuff, not relevant to the discussion soas not present a huge slab of text

The relevant law is:

S.I. 340/2006
S.I. 342/2006
S.87 RTA 2010

HTH.

Now, I'm off to the pub after all that

Bang Bang · 16-04-2012 7:35pm

Bosh wrote: »

As it is not an ambulance, fire service appliance or Garda vehicle the rider does NOT have ememption from prosecution Road Traffic Act 2010:

The blood transfusion service board have vehicles for carrying blood.

A privately owned motorcycle being used in a voluntary or paid capacity would have little or no chance of getting the go ahead to fit blue lights & sirens, and as mentioned would not be exempt from the road traffic act. So what would the point be for putting lights & sirens on the bike because the rider would not be permitted to ride the machine.

Thanks for helping clear that up Bosh, you deserve a pint

Bosh · 17-04-2012 9:02am

There's nothing to stop a private company/individual/organisation fitting blues & twos, Lifeline ambulances are an example. The problem for them only arises when stopped & prosecuted.

As far as I can ascertain, the SERV motorcycles are privately owned, the volunteers pay for the markings etc. or it comes from sponsorship. Each SERV area is an independent entity with differing standards of driver training, equipment etc. I may stand corrected on this, a brief scan of the web was all I had time for.

We've an ongoing issue at the moment with a local voluntary organisation who have fitted such equipment to jeeps & cars and have styled themselves as an emergency service.

While very noble (and they do excellent work), they are nevertheless committing offences & putting themselves fair & square in the way of an oncoming litigation express train. :eek:

The legislation has created a paradox, it gives organisations such as the Blood Transfusion Board & Coast Guard legal entitlement to fit emergency lighting but not the exemptions required for optimum useage. :rolleyes:

While it is a very worthwhile enterprise (and one I would definitely consider participating in) I feel that insurance would most likely be the biggest obstacle.

Bang Bang · 17-04-2012 8:07pm

I'm not sure if the idea of providing a free service to deliver blood is a good idea, after-all there are people who depend on a living to do this, but that's just my opinion.
So wether you agree with the idea of somebody delivering blood for free or not, I don't think it would warrant the need for another emergency response style service.
This topic appeared to go from bikers being interested in helping out to one of 'ooh can I ride with lights & sirens and be exempt from traffic laws!' One might wonder if somebody was interested in the good work of delivering blood or more interested in the 'excitement' of riding with blues & twos.

If you really want to help out then the best thing you can do is become a blood and platelet donor, it's probably the most conscious life-saving donation you will give.

TylerIE · 17-04-2012 8:35pm

Bang Bang wrote: »

I'm not sure if the idea of providing a free service to deliver blood is a good idea, after-all there are people who depend on a living to do this, but that's just my opinion.
So wether you agree with the idea of somebody delivering blood for free or not

I think theres an element of the Parable of the Broken Glass to that.

I imagine any free service would really only supplement the existing contracts or staff that the Blood Service has, it wont replace them (ie it would supplement them)

Anyway, those jobs are being funded by hospitals that are funded by the Irish Taxpayer. That money could be much better spent on direct patient care and healthcare staff, rather than on taxis and metered taxi waiting times, rather than hundreds of euro per month being spent by individual hospitals "fire-brigading" drugs and blood up and down.

There are also many people who cannot donate blood for whatever reason (From their own medical history through to certain ungrounded blanket bans against blood donations by certain groups) but would like to assist in other ways.

ratracer · 17-04-2012 9:05pm

Bang Bang wrote: »

I'm not sure if the idea of providing a free service to deliver blood is a good idea, after-all there are people who depend on a living to do this, but that's just my opinion.
So wether you agree with the idea of somebody delivering blood for free or not, I don't think it would warrant the need for another emergency response style service.
This topic appeared to go from bikers being interested in helping out to one of 'ooh can I ride with lights & sirens and be exempt from traffic laws!' One might wonder if somebody was interested in the good work of delivering blood or more interested in the 'excitement' of riding with blues & twos.

If you really want to help out then the best thing you can do is become a blood and platelet donor, it's probably the most conscious life-saving donation you will give.

I think you'll find that most of the debate here came from relevant questions of the road traffic exemptions. You brought up the change of topic with the ridiculous discussion of having lights and sirens on a private car to get to a fire station when a pager goes off. For the record, i am a blood donor and carry an organ donor card, it is for these reasons that i am interested in the OP post. I also feel from personnel observation that the mis-use and abuse of lights and sirens is on the increase in my job at least. There is no 'excitement' as you put it, in using blues and twos, they should be used only as intended, to warn traffic and pedestrians of the presence of the vehicle.

Bang Bang · 17-04-2012 9:40pm

ratracer wrote: »

You brought up the change of topic with the ridiculous discussion of having lights and sirens on a private car to get to a fire station when a pager goes off.

The topic of having lights and sirens on privates cars is far from ridiculous when referring to my context of the private car owned/driven by a retained firefighter using lights and sirens to get to the station once their alert pager has gone off. They are responding to persons trapped in fires and trapped in vehicles following road traffic collisions, amongst many other life and property threatening scenarios. I made a comparison, as you also made one on relation to the UK SERV. In some UK regions retained firefighters are permitted to use lights and sirens to get to their station following an alert. The UK system is not like the Irish system.
My comparison stated the fact because Irish retained firefighters are not permitted to use lights and sirens and be exempt from the road traffic act would lead one to believe that the chances of a privately owned motorcycle ridden in a voluntary capacity with blue lights and sirens AND be exempt from road traffic laws like the emergency services would be highly unlikely.

I'm sorry to hear that some think the topic of retained firefighters using blue lights and sirens to get to the station following an alert is "ridiculous".

SERV - Bloodrunners

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