Cheap Saorview SetTop box

Basics

1. MPEG4 H264 L4 (HD)

2. MHEG5

3. MPEG Audio and HE-AAC (more important than AC3+) people forget this one, but it may be used as the audio codec in the future.


All basics of the Saorview Spec. Be careful that it at least has these.

How does the boxes LCN behave Rover? Are the channels named 800 and have an option to renumber them 1, 2 etc.

STB, I get what you're saying but the vast majority of people out there that know little or nothing about DTT just know that Gay is telling them it's time to switch over to digital, mentions Saorview and so that is what they are calling it.

I just feel we need to educate people that just because TVs receive Saorview channels, doesn't mean that they are fully compatible with all that Soarview has to offer, let alone with what it may offer down the line. If you just round on people for using the word Saorview when talking about Irish DTT, it just confuses people. I have tried doing that with my parents last year and they just tune out as they don't have one iota what DTT is, they just know that Uncle Gaybo says they need to switch over to digital to get Saorview.

This notion that you can have a TV that picks up the Saorview stations but you can't say that it's picking up Saorview is a nonsense and I don't care how many times people say it nor how noble their reasons are for saying it, as all it does is confuse people.

User A: "I bought a TV on Amazon and the Saorview channels look amazing!"
User B: "No, you bought a TV that picks up Irish digital channels - is not Saorview compatible and you need to stop making such statements are you are misleading people!"

OTT rubbish like this grinds my gears.

I understand that if someone comes onto the forum and says that they bought a TV and can pick up Saorview channels and claims that people should buy it as it it's future proof, that they need to be told in no uncertain terms that they should not be making such claims online as it could result in someone being misled but a user just saying that their set-top-box is working like a dream with Saorview, while also making it damn clear that it doesn't have some specifications that it word need in order to take advantage of all that Saorview has to offer is doing NO wrong whatsoever.

I have no problem with guys like watty and yourself posting and making it clear that a device being discussed is not fully compatible and pointing out it's shortcomings. I welcome it in fact but I do take issue with the berating of users (not by yourself) for just using the word Saorview in when they are referring to Irish DTT and especially so when that person has not claimed full compatibility and in fact went out of their way to point out that it wasn't.

Irish DTT is Saorview and Irish DTT channels are Saorview Channels - it's that simple and nobody is going to change that. You can't expect people to not use the word Saorview when discussing non-certified devices and the time spent pulling people up on doing it would be far better spent educating people that there are different levels of Saorview compatibility and should they want FULL compatibility then perhaps they would be best advised to buy only certified Saorview products that display the logo.

Peter Rhea wrote: »

At this stage, people shouldn't be starting threads to promote basic non-PVR DVB-T receivers that are not certified, simple as that.

I don't think the product is worth recommending myself, as you can get a box here, with pretty much the same features, for a not too dissimilar price..

..but that's a different issue.

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

.. would be far better spent educating people that there are different levels of Saorview compatibility ..

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

Stupidest thing I've read here in a while.

Are Freeview HD set-top-boxes and PVRs not partially compatible with the Saorview service?

Peter Rhea wrote: »

That's fine [..] if you can't wait for a Saorview approved PVR.

It's fine anyway, whether he can wait or not.

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Who exactly do you want to 'educate' about this?

People that have been given the impression that they can ONLY view the Saorview service with Saorview certified products.

Peter Rhea wrote: »

.. there's certainly no need to be making an issue of it as if it's some big secret.

I didn't raise the issue. I responded to what was posted as the clear impression was given that people should only buy Saorview certified set-top-boxes and I disagree with that message.

watty wrote: »

But SOME people are giving the impression that any old box that gives a picture today is compatible and worth saving a few quid. It's not and no assurance everything will work next week. It's a foolish risk.

Watty, I have condemned those people myself, why do you keep going on about this? It does NOT negate my point, no matter how much you think that it does.

UK "Freeview HD" boxes or TVs are only sensible if [..] You are getting a high end PVR and you are too impatient to wait.

So I am only right only if the buyer is impatient. If they don't mind waiting though, and have plenty of patience - then I am wrong

It's stunningly bad advice to recommend such purchases.

I am advising people do nothing of the sort!! Quit this strawmanning.

I am the one advocating that people be given the truth so that they are not in the dark with regards to the specificity required of set-top-boxes, so why exactly would they go and buy such products after they listened to me? They are more likely to make poor choices after they listen to YOU if anything (I will explain below just why that is).

There are no shortage of people on eBay CLAIMING their product works in Ireland when it doesn't show RTE2 at all.
The other channels will be following.

I have condemned such practices and if the knowledge that I wish people had with regards to specifications was in the public domain (to the degree that I wish that it was) - then scurrilous sellers such as the ones referred to would have far far less buyers to feed on than they do now.

watty wrote: »

So the only advice is:

• If you [..] don't want a full true PVR only buy a certified product

Can you explain precisely why someone that lives in the west of Ireland (for example) and just wants a receiver that does what this box does (as well as it does it) would in fact be better off buying a Saorview approved product instead? (Please re-read this question twice before answering it).

• If you are more money than sense and can't wait for true Saorview Dual Tuner internal HDD PVR (coming soon), then get the Sony or Humax "Freeview+ HD" PVR, but they are not fully compatible. There are issues.

So your OTT position is partially based on fiscal empathy?

Let other people worry about their money - lets just make sure they get the facts.

There are problems with and not limited to [..]

Who is saying that issues don't exist???? :rolleyes:

You are just going around the houses in order to not address criticisms of statements that you made (and make regularly). I have made it perfectly clear that people should be educated in just what specifications are needed to avoid the issues that you list, but you list them as if they are an argument for you taking the position you do, when they are anything but.

Let's get back to the issue as I see it:

You state:

watty wrote: »

Either it's certified or not.
If it's not then NO-ONE can say it receives Saorview, that implies compatible [..]

The underlined is the crux of the issue and is what I take issue with. Your position is that if someone has a set-top-box (such as the Ariva 120) then they can't say that it "receives Saorview" - even though they are using it to view and record the Saorview service :rolleyes:

This to me is not only ludicrous but highly confusing to people that are confused enough about the switch over to digital.

What people do when they get mixed messages like this, is either see the box working in a friends house, or in an ad, or on a website with a photo of the box alongside, with a list of channels that they wish to watch and think: "Shag the naysayers" and fork out cash thinking they have been lied to and that the box must be "fully compatible" and future proof, otherwise Del Boy wouldn't be listing all those channels in the blurb.

The point (the only one I am making) is that the fly-by-night sellers (and that includes many sales staff in some of the well known stores also) are not up front with buyers when it comes to the shortcomings of some Set-Top-Boxes, PVRs and TVs and so it is far better advised that when products can be used to view Saorview, that they are referred to as being "partially compatible" with it. This will ensure that people are getting the correct message about products that they are thinking of buying, and not the incorrect one - which at the moment is coming from BOTH ends of the scale: the liars wanting to make a quick buck and the scaremongers saying that UN-certifed products are not compatible.

If you tell someone that a product is only partially compatible, then they are more likely to ask why that is and just what functions or future features they would miss out on if they made the purchase they were thinking of. Not only that, but it is also more likely that would then ask what it is precisely that they need to look out for in order to make sure that they buy a "fully compatible" product (if that is in fact what they are after).

TL;DR

The line that "Only Saorview products can be described as receiving Saorview" needs to stop as at best: it confuses people and limits their purchasing options and at worst: leads them right into the hands of people who will sell them products such as single tuner T2 PVRs, without disclosing to them the possible future shortcomings of such a purchase.

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

Single tuner T2 PVRs? Like what?

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/HUMAX-HD-FOX-T2-FREEVIEW-HD-PVR-500GB-EXTERNAL-HDD-/330499549382

The reason I used Single Tuner devices as an example was because I know people that bought such devices on Amazon and Ebay and thought that, because they could now record two channels at once, that they would be always be able to do so. Multimuxs meant squat to them and that is the point here: that in order for people to become more aware of just which specifications they need look out for, with regards to specific Saorview functions & features, "partial compatibility" needs to be talked about more, instead of this regurgitating of the same tired lines such as: 'If it's not certified by Saorview then it won't work with Saorview'.

Do you even know DVB-T2 is?

Nah, just thought I'd mention it for the craic like.

Why would someone in the west of Ireland want to spend £163 on that Humax?

I have no idea, you would have to ask them. I am not the one making any claims here that they SHOULD buy that Humax, it's others making claims that they SHOULDN'T buy it and I asked why - still have no answer to it other than fiscal empathy!

watty wrote: »

By definition a PVR has at least two tuners and an internal HDD. A one tuner box able to record is is a Set-box receiver with a Recording feature. It's not a real PVR.

Not only are you going to trying to impose a set of restrictions of just when it is that a set-top-box can be spoken of as "receiving Saorview" - but now you're are going to also lay down a criteria that a receiver must meet in order for me (or anyone else I take it) to be able to refer to it as a PVR??

Just so as we're clear here watty - as far as I am concerned, if someone has an Ariva 120 with a USB stick stuck in it's jaxxy, which they use to record to, well then as far as I am concerned: they own a PVR! If someone is using Windows Media Center and receiving Saorview via a T2 NanoStick, which is hooked up to their laptop via a leopardskin coated USB extension cable, that's wrapped around a dead goat and held out the window by a naked chimp to get the best reception, then as far as I'm concerned: they own a PVR too.

Peter Rhea wrote: »

People are free to research & buy whatever they like, but if a complete stranger asks me for advice, I'll recommend Saorview approved every time.

I have no problem with that, but you say it like you think I would - not sure why, as I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with someone recommending whatever it is that they wish to. It's the blanket statements that I take issue with. Where people are told they can't say they are receiving Saorview on non-certified devices, even though they are or dare mention a box as working "like a dream" without being accused of misleading people, that's what I'm objecting to and think I have made quite clear just why that is at this stage.

Why do you think your approach lessens confusion?

I have already said:

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

If you tell someone that a product is only partially compatible, then they are more likely to ask why that is and just what functions or future features they would miss out on if they made the purchase they were thinking of. Not only that, but it is also more likely that would then ask what it is precisely that they need to look out for in order to make sure that they buy a "fully compatible" product (if that is in fact what they are after).

@ Mr Biscuits

You seem fairly interested in the difference between Freeview HD and Saorview specification. This discussion has come up before by the way.

The document linked in that post is missing right now, but Watty had downloaded it at the time and uploaded to his site, Techtir. A copy is here.

As you can see even Teracom had question marks over some of the differences between Nordig and Freeview HD. Add to that, that Ireland have a modified Nordig spec with the addition of MHEG5 and a few other things and it muddies the waters even further.

From a selling point of view I would be recommending Saorview certified as the responsibility then lies with Saorview if there are any problems (thankfully I dont sell anything!).

Non certified but perceived compliance products do have to be taken with a pinch of salt (have to be gunthered for the epg for example).

If RTE changed their audio codec to HE-AAC tomorrow we would see a lot of STBs and IDTVs killed, so my hope for now is that they wont.

Bottom line, just because its working now, doesn't mean that RTE will change something within their spec that would inadvertetly kill grey boxes or non certified equipment tomorrow. You then become dependant on the box manufacturer issuing a fix which is not always possible through language problems, no backup software writers or hardware limitations.

I place my trust in RTE at the moment that they wont tweak and expose the gaps!

On PVRs.... Freeview HD has DRM, be aware.
On Single tuner PVRs ..... IF Mux 2 comes on then single tuners will not be able to record off one mux and view another, regardless of the software or tuner module.