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RTE DTT format in NI?

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  • 19-08-2010 10:56am
    #1
    Benster
    Registered Users Posts: 657 ✭✭✭


    Hi folks, does anyone know if RTE will be broadcasting into NI in the same MPEG4 format as the South? Or would they downgrade it to MPEG2 to keep to the Freeview standard so they are still receivable on the majority of NI tellies?

    I have to pick a TV for the folks back home and I'm not sure if I should go for a newer MPEG4 tuner or the more widely available and cheaper MPEG2.

    Thanks,

    B.
    Tagged:


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    #2
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    There really isnt much in the difference these days between the price of MPEG2 and MPEG4 DVB-T products. Its what retailers think they can get away with charging! So you end up with a situation that MPEG2 and MPEG4 products arer no dearer than each other but how knowledgable the consumer is to what they are buying (extra bang for the buck). However because the UK are using a new platform its not just as simple as the diffrence betwenn MPEG2 and MPEG4.

    NI. Come 2012 you will have a few possible scenarios in northern Ireland whereby you will have the Freeview services in 2 compression formats on 2 different platforms. They are:

    1. Freeview Standard Definition stations (the majority) MPEG2 on DVB-T
    2. Freeview HD (MPEG4 on DVB-T2)
    3. Irish DTT (either MPEG2 or MPEG4). It is not known what compression format would be used within NI if TX sites are used within NI. Cross border reception (overspill) would be MPEG4 on DVB-T.

    So if you are looking for a TV that does all and you are buying a new TV anyhow I would suggest that you look at buying a Freeview HD TV which is DVB-T2 and is apparently backwards compatible with all other formats. They are pricey at the moment. You could also buy a Freeview HD set top box if not in the market for a new TV which will give you the same level of compatability at a lower cost.

    Its as futureproof as you will get for NI.


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    #3
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,503 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Benster wrote: »
    Hi folks, does anyone know if RTE will be broadcasting into NI in the same MPEG4 format as the South? Or would they downgrade it to MPEG2 to keep to the Freeview standard so they are still receivable on the majority of NI tellies?

    I have to pick a TV for the folks back home and I'm not sure if I should go for a newer MPEG4 tuner or the more widely available and cheaper MPEG2.

    Just to add to STB's post, the overspill transmission into NI will be DVB-T/MPEG-4, they won't be changing the standard. A newer DVB-T2 (freeview HD) TV should future proof your folks for Irish DTT and freeview HD in 2012.

    At the end of July the Minister said that Irish DTT "will also provide significant coverage throughout Northern Ireland". I assume he was referring to both the terrestrial and satellite service.

    Also in 2012 some of the Irish DTT channels may be available from the local transmitters in NI as per the MoU signed between the two governments last Feb. Ofcom said in a document this year that they had been tasked with finding space for these channels.

    For the moment if they will get the terrestrial overspill a DVB-T2 TV should do the job.


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    #4
    Benster
    Registered Users Posts: 657 ✭✭✭Benster


    Thaks for the responses lads.

    Was just talking to my da, he says they get their current analogue RTE signal from Carlingford, so I'm going to assume it'll be MPEG4 overspill. Would that be the Clermont Carn transmitter?


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    #5
    MACHEAD
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭MACHEAD


    Whither or not RTÉ will be carried on the Northern main Tx sites is still at the speculation stage. Highly unlikely that any of the relays will carry it, they won't even carry all the UK channels! If they do eventually go on the NI transmitters, and it's very much an 'if' at this stage as there'll be 'rights issues' to be sorted out, it's very likely it'll be using DVBt2. And of course overspill will be using the standard that applies in the rest of the country at the time of ASO.


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    #6
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,503 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    This was Ofcom's position earlier this year
    Northern Ireland MOU

    3.15 There are two agreements in place between the governments of the UK and the Republic of Ireland concerning the relay of Irish television services in Northern Ireland. The first is the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement of 10 April 1998. This committed the UK Government to exploring urgently the scope for achieving more widespread availability of Irish language television service TG4, in Northern Ireland. The second is the MOU on the reciprocal relay of television services, signed on 1 February 2010.

    3.16 Both governments wrote to their respective spectrum regulators (us in the UK, the Commission for Communications Regulation in the Republic) in May 2009 asking that the spectrum negotiations between the two countries aim to identify suitable interleaved spectrum whose preferred use would be the relay of an additional low-capacity, low-power DTT multiplex in Northern Ireland capable of carrying the three services RTÉ One, RTÉ Two and TG4 on the three Northern Ireland main transmitters. The UK Government has indicated it is minded to direct us for this purpose. Suitable spectrum would need to be identified and awarded in line with any such direction.

    3.17 There are some uncertainties in realising such a multiplex. The technical feasibility and the quality of available interleaved spectrum have both yet to be established. Because of these and other uncertainties, the option of carrying TG4 on the Digital 3&4 PSB multiplex in Northern Ireland after DSO in 2012 is being held open by DCMS. It is anticipated that RTÉ One, RTÉ Two and TG4 will, in any event, continue to be available in Northern Ireland after DSO by overspill from transmitters in the Republic. The extent of predicted coverage for this overspill has yet to be established.

    Northern Ireland

    4.13 Arqiva carried out a similar study in late 2007 looking into optimisation of the interleaved spectrum in Northern Ireland.This showed it was possible at that time to find channels for an additional DTT multiplex to be broadcast at each of the main stations in Northern Ireland. The multiplex would have reasonable coverage provided a robust transmission mode was used. However, this work predated more recent spectrum-planning work, including work on clearing the 800 MHz band. As mentioned above, we probably will not know the exact details of interleaved channels and locations that will be available for award until later in 2010. As mentioned in paragraphs 3.15-3.17, the Government has indicated it may direct us on the use of some such spectrum in Northern Ireland. Bearing this in mind, we are endeavouring to identify additional frequencies in the interleaved spectrum that might be suitable for other uses, such as local television.

    Northern Ireland

    4.65 Our June 2008 consultation also noted it might be possible to optimise interleaved spectrum in Northern Ireland and so improve coverage there. However, as with Scotland, we will not know the exact details of the geographic interleaved spectrum available for award until the conclusion of the international negotiations on clearing the 800 MHz band. Also, we will have to find suitable spectrum in line with any direction by the Government to establish a multiplex to carry Irish television services from the three Northern Ireland main transmitters.

    In paragraph 3.17 Ofcom states "It is anticipated that RTÉ One, RTÉ Two and TG4 will, in any event, continue to be available in Northern Ireland after DSO by overspill from transmitters in the Republic. The extent of predicted coverage for this overspill has yet to be established". If terrestrial overspill combined with Saorsat give almost complete coverage of NI there may not be a requirement to roll out the Irish channels from the local transmitters


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    #7
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    DTT from ROI is likely 60% to 70% population (not Geography).

    Saorsat didn't exist as an idea when the above was discussed. There is no reason why all of N.I. can't get the Irish Spot of Kasat. Maybe need a 55cm dish in North East Antrim if Ireland is good with 44cm.

    We will know if & when it launches. If I'm right about Saorview & Soarsat coverage in N.I. it's extremely unlikely Irish Government or RTE will pay for cost of carriage in N.I. Less likely UK would pay. I think at most TG4 will get carried as a political sop to you know who and given Saorview + Saorsat very possible nothing will be carried from ROI on N.I. DTT.

    Possibly an unpopular thought. I'm only trying to be realistic, not saying what SHOULD happen before anyone bites me.


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    #8
    lawhec
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    Replicating RTÉ DTT coverage in many parts of Northern Ireland after DSO would be a wasteful use of RF resources considering many places can receive adequate signals from transmitters in the Republic already. Belfast remains a sticking point, but other major centres of population don't struggle too much in general. Derry city is fine, Newcastle and Ballycastle are two notable black spots for present analogue coverage.

    The Saorsat proposal was/is a game changer with respect to the M.O.U. north of the border. Looking at the Saorsat thread, it looks like the hot spot of the Ireland beam fully covers areas around Enniskillen, Omagh and Strabane - once you go further north-east the signal tails off but even up to somewhere like Cushendall provided the receiving dish is large enough, interference from other beams shouldn't be a problem.

    I suspect there might be a low-powered TX set up at Divis to be aimed at Belfast as TG4 currently is for analogue, but that'll be it unless some sort of self-help scheme is employed at certain locations.

    Since the long term plan in the UK as a whole is to move to DVB-T2, the DVB-T MPEG4 transmissions of Rep. Ireland should not be an issue in the medium to long term future.


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    #9
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The spots are misleading Lawhec.
    AFAIK there are only 4 combinations of polarity and band used for all 80 spots (it's been mathematically proven that's all you need).

    The hard outline is the intended coverage. Assuming a 44cm is perfect at edge, then 66cm would allow for 3dB drop. The real limitation of coverage is the poor BER (interference) by receiving a different spot using same parameters of band & polarisation.
    120204.png
    Irish and French spot with matching parameters
    In a row
    Irish, The NI/Western Isles/Scotland, East Scotland.

    I have two red lines.
    The one through Cornwall, West Wales and Western Scotland is where the BER gets bad no matter how big the dish is as the French Spot interferes.
    The short red line at the Western Isles (pointing at Iceland) is where the dish "gets big" due to less signal.

    So until service starts we don't know if Ballycastle to Larne (worst N.I. area) needs 55cm or 80cm dish. It's very likely almost none of Wales and Cornwall can get it once any services are on the Coloured in French sport. It's very likely all of N.I. can get it as the Dish for the Coloured Irish Spot is likely only 35cm to 45cm for good operation.

    Astra 2D only needs 43cm in Ireland. It's the other beams at 28E that need the 65cm (or really 80cm in extreme SW and NW). The kasat spot is likely better than Astra 2D and the SAME size dish at Ka band gets nearly twice the signal as 28.2E Ku.
    Also the 9E is higher elevation (29 degree vs 22.5) so less atmosphere path and less likelyhood of blocked signal from tree or building.

    Also all the spots are shown the same size. The Spacecraft has only four main aerials and creates the different spots by offset feeds. Since Ireland is 5W to 8W and more northern, the spots are going to be bigger and overlap more than shown compared to Southern Spots at 9E


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    #10
    Peddyr
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭Peddyr


    watty wrote: »
    The spots are misleading Lawhec.
    AFAIK there are only 4 combinations of polarity and band used for all 80 spots (it's been mathematically proven that's all you need).

    The hard outline is the intended coverage. Assuming a 44cm is perfect at edge, then 66cm would allow for 3dB drop. The real limitation of coverage is the poor BER (interference) by receiving a different spot using same parameters of band & polarisation.
    120204.png
    Irish and French spot with matching parameters
    In a row
    Irish, The NI/Western Isles/Scotland, East Scotland.

    I have two red lines.
    The one through Cornwall, West Wales and Western Scotland is where the BER gets bad no matter how big the dish is as the French Spot interferes.
    The short red line at the Western Isles (pointing at Iceland) is where the dish "gets big" due to less signal.

    So until service starts we don't know if Ballycastle to Larne (worst N.I. area) needs 55cm or 80cm dish. It's very likely almost none of Wales and Cornwall can get it once any services are on the Coloured in French sport. It's very likely all of N.I. can get it as the Dish for the Coloured Irish Spot is likely only 35cm to 45cm for good operation.

    Astra 2D only needs 43cm in Ireland. It's the other beams at 28E that need the 65cm (or really 80cm in extreme SW and NW). The kasat spot is likely better than Astra 2D and the SAME size dish at Ka band gets nearly twice the signal as 28.2E Ku.
    Also the 9E is higher elevation (29 degree vs 22.5) so less atmosphere path and less likelyhood of blocked signal from tree or building.

    Also all the spots are shown the same size. The Spacecraft has only four main aerials and creates the different spots by offset feeds. Since Ireland is 5W to 8W and more northern, the spots are going to be bigger and overlap more than shown compared to Southern Spots at 9E

    Hi Watty,

    If Saorsat is feasible in IOM, what would you estimate the size of dish needed? 80cm??


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    #11
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It's hard to say till we have an RTE transmission.
    Anything between 65cm and 110cm is plausable. Asumming the ratio of Irish Reception to French reception when anything on the french spot is on the same frequency in the band & polarisation the spots share.

    Maybe this time next year we will know for sure.


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    #12
    SRB
    Registered Users Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    Don' t forget, HD versions of the UK channels will also require spectrum, any extra muxes are more likely to end up being used for those, RTE DTT is already available to anyone using an enabled TX, apart from CC which is nulled. With the launch of BBC 1 HD I would not be at all surprised if Freeview HD arrives in NI sooner than 2012


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    #13
    egal
    Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭egal


    Is Holywell Hill nulled?


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    #14
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    Peddyr wrote: »
    Hi Watty,

    If Saorsat is feasible in IOM, what would you estimate the size of dish needed? 80cm??
    Did I hear someone say they might bring the "Little Extra" offset bracket back?Or am I talking nonsense?I automatically think I am ,so maybe I've answered my own question.


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    #15
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    If it works it will be a curved bar tilted and about 30cm long. Not little.


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    #16
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    watty wrote: »
    If it works it will be a curved bar tilted and about 30cm long. Not little.

    Thanks for that,my dish is behind the wood burning stove,may start a new thread,"Fire Sat".


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    #17
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    STB wrote: »
    So if you are looking for a TV that does all and you are buying a new TV anyhow I would suggest that you look at buying a Freeview HD TV which is DVB-T2 and is apparently backwards compatible with all other formats. They are pricey at the moment. You could also buy a Freeview HD set top box if not in the market for a new TV which will give you the same level of compatability at a lower cost.

    Its as futureproof as you will get for NI.
    At present,I'm receiving the 3 Welsh freeview hd channels perfectly on a T2 receiver,the standard freeview channel's and all the irish mpeg4 channels including the RTENL HD test.
    So theres no "apparently" about it.

    The tv's are not pricey at all actually.
    They are quite comparative.

    par example

    http://www.richersounds.com/product/led-tv/lg/42le5900/lg-42le5900


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    #18
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Deleted User wrote: »
    At present,I'm receiving the 3 Welsh freeview hd channels perfectly on a T2 receiver,the standard freeview channel's and all the irish mpeg4 channels including the RTENL HD test.
    So theres no "apparently" about it.

    Black Briar I didnt include the word apparent for no reason. I know you cant resist the odd dig, but I genuinely couldnt stand over saying its that straight forward, its not.

    What happens if RTE start switching on some, any or all of the preferences specified in the Irish DTT (Nordig plus extras) as opposed to those specified in the UK Dbook spec v6.1. Also, outside of Nordig specs there are additional mandatory requirements for Ireland set out in page 7 of this RTE minimum spec document.

    Just because your clearing DTT now you should not presume that your DVB-T2 TV is compliant with Irish DTT. If you were was selling TVs specifically for Irish DTT you would have to able to stand over that "no apparent about it".

    Especially if or when broadcast flags set in Irish DTT at the moment change from the basic setting of 0x1 - Digital Television Service.

    Remember what happened to the Panasonics Combo ranges when RTENL were broadcasting the 0x16 Advanced Codec Spec, it crippled them, because Pani were taking a very narrow view on the DBook spec ?

    What about the behaviour of non UK stations with country descriptors set to that of other than UK ?

    You or I do not know what RTENL will turn on or off that could effect the performance of something that is written to UK Dbook 6.1 standard until its happened. And RTE NL wont care because Ireland has a different published specification. Certainly Freeview HD will not be available when the country profile is changed to Ireland - is there even that option, I'm sure there isnt - as I am sure that the manufacturers would be as quick to say that is manufactured for the UK!

    Bearing in mind the clarification and modifications made by RTE to Nordig, see page 3-5 of this document which sets out the difference between UK Dbook V6+ and Nordig 2+ for both DVB-T and DVB-T2

    http://www.teracom.se/Documents/Produkter/Irdtesting/Teracom%20DTT%20receiver%20FAQ%202010-06%20008.pdf
    The tv's are not pricey at all actually.
    They are quite comparative.

    par example

    http://www.richersounds.com/product/led-tv/lg/42le5900/lg-42le5900

    Are they ? Par example - DVB-T MPEG4 products for a 42" start at £399 (as in comparison to £699 for dvb-t2)

    http://www.moneysupermarket.com/c/shopping/sp/audio-video-and-tv/plasma-tvs/


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    #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Firstly,there are never any digs here,just robust debate and clarifications.
    If someone thinks something is untrue or needs clarification,they say and why.Then someone else says something different or agrees and so it goes on.
    It's not possible for nicknames to have digs [though people behind nicks do try sometimes,I can assure you I don't].
    Besides as posters don't use real names and we could be anybody,then whats said here should never be personal.
    So if I'm offending you,thats not meant.

    STB wrote: »
    Certainly Freeview HD will not be available when the country profile is changed to Ireland - is there even that option, I'm sure there isnt - as I am sure that the manufacturers would be as quick to say that is manufactured for the UK!
    Actually the sagemcom does have a country setting for Ireland.
    Bearing in mind the clarification and modifications made by RTE to Nordig, see page 3-5 of this document which sets out the difference between UK Dbook V6+ and Nordig 2+ for both DVB-T and DVB-T2

    http://www.teracom.se/Documents/Produkter/Irdtesting/Teracom%20DTT%20receiver%20FAQ%202010-06%20008.pdf
    I'm not as pessimistic as you that RTE will decide at this stage on a system that causes that substantial a conflict between the viewer in Lifford and the viewer in Strabane.
    I'd agree that they might but with one month of testing to go before the official start I doubt it.

    Are they ? Par example - DVB-T MPEG4 products for a 42" start at £399 (as in comparison to £699 for dvb-t2)

    http://www.moneysupermarket.com/c/shopping/sp/audio-video-and-tv/plasma-tvs/
    Yes the price of older spec tv's is going through the floor right now.But from what I can see it's only the mickey mouse sets that are as low as that one you quoted.Currys have a similar offer.
    Theres a very good reason for that,HD has launched,LED has launched and the cobweb tv's willl soon not be wanted.
    Also plasma telly's are going out of fashion even quicker-though personally I've always liked them.
    I love LED's though.
    I showed you an LED tv,a far superior product than the list in money supermarket.
    You should compare like with like and if you want the modern led tv whether mpeg 4 or freeview hd,you'll pay a similar price now.
    The cheapest mpeg4 led 42 on richer is £600 and it's the last of the current lot.
    You can get a sharp 42" led freeview hd for the same price £600

    Anyhow Lets agree to disagree untill october one and we see what spec saorview launches at.


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    #20
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    I was explaining why I was using the word apparent. I was not arguing with you (infact it was a note for the OP).

    I am hopeful that DVB-T2 UK products would do the magic for Ireland as although they probably wont be certified with Saorview sticker they would at least offer more options for consumers.

    It would also mean that we have more compatible products on the market than incompatible products like we have now. Unfortunately that there are still many many MPEG2 products to shifted by retail chains onto the poor ill informed Irish consumer that could ensure a longer life for legacy products which means more money being spent and the clutter of set top boxes.

    Their are differences - lets see how it plays out next March/April which is when I speculate that we will see HD and the second mux and the real in place service.

    BTW. The reason that DVB-T MPEG4 products are cheaper and more freely available is

    • They are not suitable for HD in the UK as they have nominated a diffrent platform for HD than the rest of Europe and are being dumped (hooray - Ireland as a dumping ground benefits for once).
    • They are widely manufactured for the large MPEG4 DVB-T market.
    It has nothing to do with old technology. LED might of course be cutting edge - I just cant justify the price tag at the moment.


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    #21
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It has something to do with old technology in that led's are the new type of TV and at circa £600 in the UK are a bargain now.
    But yes the whole dumping of mpeg4 standard tv's is helping.
    Cutting edge LED's may be, but pricewise,they're a fraction of what the spec of the day tv's were a year or two ago.
    Soon every tom dick and harry will have one.

    That bit said,I think we're on similar enough pages just lost a bit in each others translation at times.Thats web fora for you.
    Face to face is different when into this kind of nitty gritty.


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    #22
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    They are not LED TVs, Those cost 100,000's they are LED backlit LCDs. Some LEDs backlights are better than CFLs and some are worse.


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    #23
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    watty wrote: »
    They are not LED TVs, Those cost 100,000's they are LED backlit LCDs. Some LEDs backlights are better than CFLs and some are worse.
    I notice that some tv's are advertised as "Full LED",as opposed to edge.how confusing the whole thing must be for the public.Most folk never got their head round "Full HD",HD Ready,Plasma, LED ,Freesat ,Freeview,FreeviewHD,Mped 2 and 4.
    Guess it keeps people in jobs an Japan.


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    #24
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Also Red, Green and Blue LEDs backlights with light slots matching LCD filter stripes are more expensive but superior to "white" LED backlight. Both are "full" back lights. Some LED backlights are less even than CFL.


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    #25
    amorset
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭amorset


    I maybe going off topic but Ive just updated my channel list on my Mpeg2 Panno TV and its picked up RTE TV and Radio around 800 channel numbers.
    However I can only hear it, no picture. Will this be the way it stays ?

    I live in Tyrone and picking up analogue RTE from Truskmore.


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    #26
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    yes. You might not get sound later either if it's AAC to save space when they are doing HD.


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    #27
    John mac
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭John mac


    amorset wrote: »
    I maybe going off topic but Ive just updated my channel list on my Mpeg2 Panno TV and its picked up RTE TV and Radio around 800 channel numbers.
    However I can only hear it, no picture. Will this be the way it stays ?

    I live in Tyrone and picking up analogue RTE from Truskmore.

    yes it will stay that way, rte is mpeg4,

    so not compatible with your mpeg2 tv.


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    #28
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,503 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    amorset wrote: »
    However I can only hear it, no picture. Will this be the way it stays ?

    Yes as the 2 lads said previously but if you upgrade in future to a freeview-HD DVB-T2/MPEG-4 TV or STB it should allow you to watch Irish DTT and future proof you for freeview-HD in 2012.


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    #29
    amorset
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭amorset


    OK, Thanks for the info.
    Was going to hold out for a freeview+ HD PVR (or nearest equivalent available)for the 2012 switch in the north but knowing Irish DTT is available now tempts me to buy a basic set top now. (I currently use a VCR's tuner to view RTE !)


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