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Will the 'Troubles' ever happen again in N.Ireland?

  • 03-04-2012 12:33am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭


    Just curious, I hope to god It doesn't.

    Sorry If this is in the wrong forum (Did not know what forum to put it into)


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 214 ✭✭bensweeney


    A curious thing is happening, though perhaps not related to the OP. Now that there's (more or less) equality in the North, have some people decided they need to turn their victimhood and whinging somewhere else? Where's nearest - ah the south! Let's have a go at them for racial abuse.


    http://www.derryjournal.com/community/columnists/brolly-s-bites-north-men-south-men-comrades-all-my-arse-1-3674549


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Just curious, I hope to god It doesn't...

    of course they could - NI is a place where two broadly equal groups of people live who disagree fundamentally about where the future of the territory lies.

    now, the chances of serious conflict are much reduced when people have their civil and human rights respected, when they are 'comfortable', and where they are free to seek to persuade others of the rightness of their particular view - not to mention where there is a collective memory of the cost of conflict - but just like any other Ethno-National conflict in the world, its a couple of idiot politicians and a handful of nasty incidents away from flaring up.

    unless, of course, part of the GFA was removing the bits from the people of NI that make them like everyone else in the world...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 564 ✭✭✭thecommietommy


    bensweeney wrote: »
    A curious thing is happening, though perhaps not related to the OP. Now that there's (more or less) equality in the North, have some people decided they need to turn their victimhood and whinging somewhere else? Where's nearest - ah the south! Let's have a go at them for racial abuse.


    http://www.derryjournal.com/community/columnists/brolly-s-bites-north-men-south-men-comrades-all-my-arse-1-3674549
    Over 3,500 people were killed in the troubles with thousands maimed. There's hardly a family across the north who weren't affected in some way. But then if we were discussing say, the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974 and the calls by their relatives for a proper investigation, we'd still have some wannabe funny guy trying to dismiss it as victimhood and whinging.

    For those of us who lived through it all I can say is I hope to God we never have anything like it again.

    Alan_Lewis_Johnston__25326s.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    Over 3,500 people were killed in the troubles with thousands maimed. There's hardly a family across the north who weren't affected in some way. But then if we were discussing say, the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974 and the calls by their relatives for a proper investigation, we'd still have some wannabe funny guy trying to dismiss it as victimhood and whinging.

    For those of us who lived through it all I can say is I hope to God we never have anything like it again.

    Alan_Lewis_Johnston__25326s.jpg

    100%


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭Cork boy 55


    The probability of a full scale return to an armed conflict
    is very slim if the relative political and economic stability contines.*

    However the probability of a short-term sectarian outbreak of extreme violence is high IMO.
    for example Look at last summer at the rioting which saw two loyalist rioters shot and wounded by republicans
    Imagine if it had been two dead or twelve dead and the tit for tat killings
    that could have followed
    Police said there were gunshots from the republican Short Strand area, while loyalists also opened fire, but masked UVF members were blamed for starting the violence by attacking homes in the Catholic enclave.
    Two men on the loyalist side of the divide suffered gunshot wounds to the leg, officers confirmed.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/uvf-blamed-after-rioting-in-belfast-2300411.html

    The Government in the north should take major steps to deal with flashpoints intersections and the remaining controversial marches.
    The dissident groups appear to be in decline and hopefully they will call
    a ceasefire soon, however there is also a probability that they will get lucky and cause mayhem or some of the weapons floating around could be used by somone mental to carry out a spree killing or something which could kick things off. The governments should be more pro-active in bringing the dissidents into the fold, cut some deal or defeat them. They appear to me to be just hoping they go away and that normal policing will defeat them.

    *The relative economic stability and political stability could be interrupted by a number of factors
    The global economic picture is uncertain, Eurocrisis, middle east instability,
    energy suppiles, climate change, unknown unknowns, I could go on
    It's unlikey but we could be heading into a period of severe economic decline for an extended period. The current future is uncertain.
    So imagine something like North and south 30% decline in living standards
    unemployment at 20-30% north and south or even worse etc etc
    plenty of cannon fodder for a fight.

    The current relative political instability could be interrupted by a number of factors. The GFA is inhertently instable A better solution short
    of unification would have been repartition.
    Imagine the Scottish leaving union in 2014
    then imagine the souths economy taking off like a rocket
    then a border poll in 2018 passes by 51%.
    What will the 49% do? fight or accept.

    The governments north and south should act urgently to resolve the remaining flashpoint for violence issues to reduce the trigger factors
    • Marches
    • flashpoint intersections
    • remaining active armed elements.

    The Government in the south should not cutback on defense spending and numbers for the medium term future IMO


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Only the dissidents could start it again. Which is what they are trying to do but no one is taking the bait so far. The Ulster people seem more than happy now with the current set up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Only the dissidents could start it again....

    i don't agree - though i suppose it depends on your definition of 'dissidents' - mainstream political forces on either side could inflame the situation, or at the very least, make the situation extremely 'warm', and other issues like the possible break-up of the UK, a unification referendum, a traumatic failure of the Euro, or maybe a particularly savage 'spectacular' on the part of the hotheads on either side, could tip the situation over.

    the current detente is fragile, we're all extraordinarily lucky that bad as NI was, it didn't turn into a Bosnia-type conflagration - we should not assume that luck will prevent a rise in tensions, or that if it were to go to a societal wide conflict again, we'd be lucky again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,991 ✭✭✭el tel


    I don't think it will ever happen but come to the North over the 12th July and you will see that the sectarianism is alive and well and that the threat of "troubles-like" activity bubbles just under the surface. The dissidents are a specifically dangerious threat but thankfully they have zero support. IMO the greatest barrier to the country moving on in proper harmony is the existence of Orange Order and the annual opening of the festering wound which surround their celebrations.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    el tel wrote: »
    I don't think it will ever happen but come to the North over the 12th July and you will see that the sectarianism is alive and well and that the threat of "troubles-like" activity bubbles just under the surface. The dissidents are a specifically dangerious threat but thankfully they have zero support. IMO the greatest barrier to the country moving on in proper harmony is the existence of Orange Order and the annual opening of the festering wound which surround their celebrations.
    The Orange Order are a perfectly legal organisation. The dissidents though aren't. The PSNI isn't trying to hunt Orangemen and women down. So this isn't a good argument.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17596364


    Man and daughter 'critical' after shooting in north Belfast

    A man and his teenage daughter have been critically injured in a gun attack in north Belfast.

    The 47-year-old man and an 18-year-old woman were shot at Evelyn Gardens, off the Cavehill Road, after 08:30 BST on Tuesday.

    The woman has stomach and hand injuries. Her father has chest injuries and his condition has been described as life threatening.

    Police are looking into a possible link with a van found in the Oldpark area.

    The vehicle was found on fire at Ballymoney Street in the north of the city just before 09:00 BST.


    The police have appealed for witnesses to contact them.

    They especially want to hear from the occupants of a red car which was seen driving away from the area around the time of the shooting.

    SDLP councillor Nichola Mallon condemned the shooting.

    She said: "This shooting is a deeply worrying event in any case, but it is especially heinous given that it occurred at 8:30am, when people are travelling to school and work."

    Alliance councillor Billy Webb described it as a "vicious and callous attack on two people in a residential area".

    Evelyn Gardens, Salisbury Avenue and Hughenden Avenue have been closed.

    Enough said really


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    History says yes. Ireland unfree will never be at peace and all that. Even if the "dissident" support falls to one mad man in the cooley mountains throwing rocks into the Irish sea, history shows a cyclical pattern in support for freedom from british rule/unity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 668 ✭✭✭Pat D. Almighty


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    The Orange Order are a perfectly legal organisation. The dissidents though aren't. The PSNI isn't trying to hunt Orangemen and women down. So this isn't a good argument.

    Just because they are legal, doesn't mean they're not dangerous.

    The Orange Order are sectarian, and publicly too.

    The dissidents aren't, at least not publicly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    The Orange Order are a perfectly legal organisation. The dissidents though aren't. The PSNI isn't trying to hunt Orangemen and women down. So this isn't a good argument.

    Just because they are legal, doesn't mean they're not dangerous.

    The Orange Order are sectarian, and publicly too.

    The dissidents aren't, at least not publicly.

    What is dangerous is disenfranchising people, say by constantly demonising an important part or parts of thier culture


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    It's hard to say. Having tasted a life relatively free of frequent bombings and gunmen on the streets I imagine the older generation would not be willing to see the North return to such violence as was seen during the troubles. It's up to them to educate the young now.

    While the Orange Order may not be doing anything illegal or violent it is certainly provocative. I personally witnessed the marches while staying a week in Bangor last year and speaking to those celebrating the march there is no animosity behind it. They simply see it as tradition. However it represents something powerful. While this tradition remains it will be a cause for resentment. How can peace be taught between communities when every year Protestants celebrate kicking Catholic arse at the Boyne?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    History says yes. Ireland unfree will never be at peace and all that. Even if the "dissident" support falls to one mad man in the cooley mountains throwing rocks into the Irish sea, history shows a cyclical pattern in support for freedom from british rule/unity.

    Ireland is free.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Richard wrote: »
    Ireland is free.

    you may think that, i may think that, 95% or so of the combined population may think that, but it doesn't take many people who don't think that - and it would work the same way in a post-unification society - to cause an awful lot of problems.


  • Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭dpe


    The most significant issue to impact the peace process will be the potential breakup of the UK. If Scotland decides on independence (I don't think they will personally; I think the whole referendum is a stalking horse for "Devo-Max" powers short of full independence), the very logic of a separate Northern Ireland starts to look shaky.

    The English won't want it (let's be honest, culturally NI was always a Scottish colony, not an English one), the Scottish will distance themselves from any discussion about NI saying its an issue for what remains of the Union, and the Republic won't be any economic shape to take NI on for a long time to come. The risk then becomes that NI is stuck in a political limbo and worse, an economic one. Poverty is a surefire way to bring back sectarian violence with a vengance.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Good post dpe, very interesting train of thought, although I dont think violence could reach pre 9/11 levels. Bombing would not be tolerated anymore by anybody, and US funds in particular would dry up overnight. Its all about self determination now, the gloomy days of violence are over.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    And yet we have a young girl and het father laying in intensive care because somebody decided to rake thier car with gun fire and this only after a couple of weeks after somebody was murdered by gun men


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Border-Rat


    The probability of a full scale return to an armed conflict
    is very slim if the relative political and economic stability contines.*

    However the probability of a short-term sectarian outbreak of extreme violence is high IMO.
    for example Look at last summer at the rioting which saw two loyalist rioters shot and wounded by republicans
    Imagine if it had been two dead or twelve dead and the tit for tat killings
    that could have followed.

    :pac:

    At least get your facts straight before trying this type of thing. The two 'loyalist rioters' were part of a UVF mob that descended on a housing enclave intent on burning out Catholics. The Catholics took refuge in a Chapel, which was fired upon by the UVF from behind armored PSNI 4x4's and luckily the bullets fell short and skipped off the Chapel grounds. The Provisional IRA, which was defending the Chapel/people from the roof, returned fire and several of the mob were hit. Boo hoo, the evil Provo terrorists returned fire. Funny this whole thing was never mentioned on RTE-Harris.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Only the dissidents could start it again. Which is what they are trying to do but no one is taking the bait so far. The Ulster people seem more than happy now with the current set up.

    What the dissidents want for Ireland- a Cuba or Libya on the edge of western Europe- is something the vast majority of the people on this island have absolutely no desire for. They would have a tough time imposing it on Fine Gael voters in the ROI. While Northern Ireland is likely to remain a part of the UK during the rest of all our life times the Nationalist population there is gaining more and more social power and indeed control- they have no practical reason to support an armed campaign at all now. Once 50 per plus 1 is reached by them though the Ulster British are in for a hard time- so when that happens you could see some type of Ulster British seperatist movement for the areas the counties they still have a majority in by that stage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,991 ✭✭✭el tel


    junder wrote: »
    And yet we have a young girl and het father laying in intensive care because somebody decided to rake thier car with gun fire and this only after a couple of weeks after somebody was murdered by gun men



    Do you know what the motive was? I don't and neither do the PSNI. It could well be unrelated to anything "troubles". There are frequent gun attacks in the Republic. It has become a way of modern life. Let's not jump to conclusions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    junder wrote: »
    And yet we have a young girl and het father laying in intensive care because somebody decided to rake thier car with gun fire and this only after a couple of weeks after somebody was murdered by gun men
    I don't want to speculate on a motive but that is unlikely to have been politically motivated.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    junder wrote: »
    And yet we have a young girl and het father laying in intensive care because somebody decided to rake thier car with gun fire and this only after a couple of weeks after somebody was murdered by gun men

    When somebodys shot, I'm still curious enough to actually see if anyone has a notion as to why...
    Mr Hales, who is well-known to the police in the city, is believed to have been the intended target. A source close to the city's underworld said: "He would have a lot of enemies."

    Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/man-and-daughter-hurt-in-shooting-16139688.html#ixzz1r5BlJNvs


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    junder wrote: »
    And yet we have a young girl and het father laying in intensive care because somebody decided to rake thier car with gun fire and this only after a couple of weeks after somebody was murdered by gun men
    I would echo the sentiment of other posters who make the point that it can't be known what the motive behind this attack was.

    Also while the incident is horrific and the family have my every sympathy I don't think it can be compared to the full scale carnage brought by 'The Troubles'.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,735 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    To answer the OP - Yes. The 'troubles' (or whatever term one uses) could easily revisit if the politicians take their eye off the ball for too long, or if the rest of the country decides that everything is all of a sudden sorted.

    I contend though - as mentioned already - go to some parts of the north during the height of the marching season and it doesnt look like anything has changed at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Just because they are legal, doesn't mean they're not dangerous.

    The Orange Order are sectarian, and publicly too.

    The dissidents aren't, at least not publicly.
    Everything in N.I is sectarian. Our power sharing agreement is built on sectarianism, our schools are sectarian. We have no opposition in stormont and will always have a Unionist or Nationalist party working with each other.

    People either vote Orange or Green. Doesn't matter what policies the parties have. Saying the Orange Order is sectarian when the whole country involves it isn't a good argument like I said. It is basic cherry picking.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    OS119 wrote: »
    you may think that, i may think that, 95% or so of the combined population may think that, but it doesn't take many people who don't think that - and it would work the same way in a post-unification society - to cause an awful lot of problems.

    If by that,you mean that if there was unification that some loyalists would say "Ulster isn't free", then you're absolutely right.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Everything in N.I is sectarian. Our power sharing agreement is built on sectarianism, our schools are sectarian. We have no opposition in stormont and will always have a Unionist or Nationalist party working with each other.

    People either vote Orange or Green. Doesn't matter what policies the parties have. Saying the Orange Order is sectarian when the whole country involves it isn't a good argument like I said. It is basic cherry picking.
    Partition itself was sectarian. The border is our biggest peace line. It wasn't until the 1950's that it no longer functioned to divide catholics and protestants. Maybe in the future people will stop voting for their colour and we can break down the biggest barrier or all.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Partition itself was sectarian..

    Not true- the Ulster British are their own ethnic group, their own nation and as such entitled to the same right to self determination as the Irish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    Not true- the Ulster British are their own ethnic group, their own nation and as such entitled to the same right to self determination as the Irish.
    At the time of partition they were not a nation. Initially Ulster was going to be kept by Britain buy surveys showed that 3 counties (Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan) had a significant Catholic majority so they were dropped.
    Partition happened along sectarian lines. "Northern Ireland, a protestant state for a protestant people".


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    At the time of partition they were not a nation. Initially Ulster was going to be kept by Britain buy surveys showed that 3 counties (Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan) had a significant Catholic majority so they were dropped.
    Partition happened along sectarian lines. "Northern Ireland, a protestant state for a protestant people".

    On the contrary the reason partition happened was because the Ulster British were clearly a separate nation to the Southern Irish. Religion did serve as a significator though for nationality- thats not to say that Northern Ireland wasnt governed terribly by the essentially Anglo-Irish elite that ceased control of it after partition.


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Everything in N.I is sectarian. Our power sharing agreement is built on sectarianism, our schools are sectarian. We have no opposition in stormont and will always have a Unionist or Nationalist party working with each other.

    People either vote Orange or Green. Doesn't matter what policies the parties have. Saying the Orange Order is sectarian when the whole country involves it isn't a good argument like I said. It is basic cherry picking.

    Keith its possible to a Unionist or Loyalist without being sectarian but its not possible to be an Orange man without being sectarian.

    I dont think Sinn Fein is a sectarian organization as such also- they dont hate your people because of religion but because you are not pure blooded gaels.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Border-Rat


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Everything in N.I is sectarian. Our power sharing agreement is built on sectarianism, our schools are sectarian. We have no opposition in stormont and will always have a Unionist or Nationalist party working with each other.

    People either vote Orange or Green. Doesn't matter what policies the parties have. Saying the Orange Order is sectarian when the whole country involves it isn't a good argument like I said. It is basic cherry picking.

    Two schools I had experience with - the Catholic one never mentioned the troubles or Protestantism. The 'mixed'/majority Protestant one had an unhealthy obsession with Roman Catholicism and the Pope. The actual Pope. I found it disturbing and very unsettling. No, everything isn't sectarian. Maybe thats how things are forced on your end.

    Are there tricolours flying inside Chapels? No, but the same can't be said for Union Jacks inside Protestant Churches. Which explains a lot about my school experiences TBH.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Keith its possible to a Unionist or Loyalist without being sectarian but its not possible to be an Orange man without being sectarian.

    I dont think Sinn Fein is a sectarian organization as such also- they dont hate your people because of religion but because you are not pure blooded gaels.
    I know that. I know the problem Sinn Fein has with the Ulster people loyal to the Union. But what I was saying is the whole set up in Northern Ireland is built around politics. Orange or Green.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    MyKeyG wrote: »
    junder wrote: »
    And yet we have a young girl and het father laying in intensive care because somebody decided to rake thier car with gun fire and this only after a couple of weeks after somebody was murdered by gun men
    I would echo the sentiment of other posters who make the point that it can't be known what the motive behind this attack was.

    Also while the incident is horrific and the family have my every sympathy I don't think it can be compared to the full scale carnage brought by 'The Troubles'.

    Tell that to the family. as for the motive initial reports suggest dissident republicans targeting an alleged drug dealer


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Border-Rat wrote: »
    Two schools I had experience with - the Catholic one never mentioned the troubles or Protestantism. The 'mixed'/majority Protestant one had an unhealthy obsession with Roman Catholicism and the Pope. No, everything isn't sectarian. Maybe thats how things are forced on your end.

    Are there tricolours flying inside Chapels? No, but the same can't be said for Union Jacks inside Protestant Churches. Which explains a lot about my school experiences TBH.
    The Tri colour was used during the Troubles on IRA coffins being moved into Chapels. So yes, it does happen. I don't see the big issue regarding the Union flag being in Protestant churches in the United Kingdom. Perhaps you might not like it but then again, that isn't up to you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Everything in N.I is sectarian. Our power sharing agreement is built on sectarianism, our schools are sectarian. We have no opposition in stormont and will always have a Unionist or Nationalist party working with each other.

    People either vote Orange or Green. Doesn't matter what policies the parties have. Saying the Orange Order is sectarian when the whole country involves it isn't a good argument like I said. It is basic cherry picking.


    I agree, Bit like the way things where in the south between FG/FF back in the day, Eventually this bitterness will slide away and hopefully new parties might emerge in the not so distant future one hopes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Everything in N.I is sectarian. Our power sharing agreement is built on sectarianism, our schools are sectarian. We have no opposition in stormont and will always have a Unionist or Nationalist party working with each other.

    People either vote Orange or Green. Doesn't matter what policies the parties have. Saying the Orange Order is sectarian when the whole country involves it isn't a good argument like I said. It is basic cherry picking.

    Keith its possible to a Unionist or Loyalist without being sectarian but its not possible to be an Orange man without being sectarian.

    I dont think Sinn Fein is a sectarian organization as such also- they dont hate your people because of religion but because you are not pure blooded gaels.

    I know plenty of orange men who are not sectarian met a few republicans who would love to see the ethnic cleansing of the unionist community


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Border-Rat wrote: »
    The 'mixed'/majority Protestant one had an unhealthy obsession with Roman Catholicism and the Pope. The actual Pope. I found it disturbing and very unsettling.

    I have found this too and yes it is disturbing- it is very off putting for a lot of people on mainland UK who otherwise would sympathetic to the Loyalist cause. A lot of Ulster Protestants seem actually to see hedonistic liberal secularism as being a much prefered option to Roman Catholicism (and one has to wonder even Anglo-Catholicism?- something that the Orange Order in England have been militantly opposed for years, even picketing pilgrimages to Walsingham).


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    under wrote: »
    I know plenty of orange men who are not sectarian met a few republicans who would love to see the ethnic cleansing of the unionist community


    So your point being that there are sectarian republicans as there are sectarian loyalists/unionists, Nothing new there.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Border-Rat


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    The Tri colour was used during the Troubles on IRA coffins being moved into Chapels. So yes, it does happen. I don't see the big issue regarding the Union flag being in Protestant churches in the United Kingdom. Perhaps you might not like it but then again, that isn't up to you.

    Those are one-offs. The Union Jack hanging inside a Church is a permanent fixture and inadvertently or deliberately makes the religion a political one. Having grown up in two mixed schools during the troubles I can say that sectarianism was a definite feature - including bald-faced sectarianism towards minors from teachers. At least three times I was approached by a teacher and asked to confirm my religion.

    Drumcree, Holycross and McGuinness becoming Minister for Education were for my fellow Catholic pupils and I 'defensive' in nature, to put it one way in state schools.


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    junder wrote: »
    I know plenty of orange men who are not sectarian met a few republicans who would love to see the ethnic cleansing of the unionist community

    Im well aware than the Provisional movement wants the Ulster British off the island and that is something that I find unjust to put it mildly- I support the right of self determination for your people, but please be honest how can someone be a member of the Orange Order, who's very reason for being is to oppose Catholicism and to celebrate the taking away of Religious liberty from British Catholics and not be sectarian?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Border-Rat wrote: »
    Those are one-offs. The Union Jack hanging inside a Church is a permanent fixture and inadvertently or deliberately makes the religion a political one. Having grown up in two mixed schools during the troubles I can say that sectarianism was a definite feature - including bald-faced sectarianism towards minors from teachers. At least three times I was approached by a teacher and asked to confirm my religion.

    Drumcree, Holycross and McGuinness becoming Minister for Education were for my fellow Catholic pupils and I 'defensive' in nature, to put it one way in state schools.
    I don't see what you find so wrong about hanging a flag in a church which is attended by Unionists?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭tfitzgerald


    I think that the main thing is that the killing has stopped. In time I think new parties will spring up and the old sectarian politics will die out I think a lot of the younger people want all this hatred put behind them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    Im well aware than the Provisional movement wants the Ulster British off the island
    Where did you get that idea?
    Noone logically thinks that unionists can somehow be repatriated to their ancestoral homes! The main focus is on including them in Irish society and not excluding them in an enclave in the north east.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ........... but because you are not pure blooded gaels.

    And what do you base that on?


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Where did you get that idea?
    Noone logically thinks that unionists can somehow be repatriated to their ancestoral homes! The main focus is on including them in Irish society and not excluding them in an enclave in the north east.

    The PIRA knew that if the British state withdrew their would be a communal blood bath- and yet they carried out a terrorist campaign for long years to get the British state to do just that. Given their insistence on a 32 county Republic what other conclusions can we draw?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,543 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    It all depends on whether SF can continue to garner support of the younger generations of nationalists within Northern Ireland who wish to see the creation of a United Ireland - and that all depends on whether the GFA can actually deliver a United Ireland. If SF were to lose support of such adolescents to the likes of the 32CSM and RSF then the likelihood of violence in the future increases, in my view.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The PIRA ..........can we draw?

    Sorry, could you get back to me on this.....
    I dont think Sinn Fein is a sectarian organization as such also- they dont hate your people because of religion but because you are not pure blooded gaels.

    What is that statement based on?


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