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Will the 'Troubles' ever happen again in N.Ireland?

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    #62
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Nodin wrote: »
    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Anyone who celebrates the terrorist campaign of the Provisional IRA must also hate the Ulster British- that stands to reason and to deny that is as childish as Junder's fib about knowing non-sectarian Orange men..

    I supported the PIRA campaign, and I do not "hate the Ulster British". Nor do I have any belief in this "full blooded gael" guff.
    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Go to Ulster and chat with Sinn Fein activists- yes their public announcements are all very PC and rosy but its a different story on the ground.

    So you've no evidence whatsoever with regards Sinn Fein policy then?

    If you supported the pira then you supported the murder of people from
    My community, I can only interpret that as hate for my community


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    #63
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    junder wrote: »
    The battle of the boyne which is the primary thing the orange order celebrates was not a Protestant vrs catholoc war I am afraid however the orange order is a Protestant orginization that by that definition celebrates the reformation, you can not be a roman catholic and celebrate the reformation since the reformation was a rejection of the very ideals that the roman catholic faith is founded on which is why the whole argument about the orange order not letting roman Catholics join is nonsense, you may as well accuse womens group of being sexist for not letting men join. I am not in the orange but I am in a flute band, one that is 130 Years old and I am very much looking forward to the 12th this year, especially as we will be wearing our new uniforms and trust me the only thing on my mind that day will be my sore feet as it's a very very long walk
    Why were people kicked out of the order for associating or socialising with catholics? Why is/was there a ban on a protestant married into a catholic family from joining?

    You don't kicked out of the orderfor associating or socialising with Catholics that's a myth, the ban on Marriage like many rules is not always strictly imposed


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    #64
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Im well aware than the Provisional movement wants the Ulster British off the island & that is something that I find unjust to put it mildly.
    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    Where did you get that idea?

    The big Provisional mantra during the troubles was 'Brits Out' so maybe that gave people the idea?


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    #65
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    LordSutch wrote: »
    The big Provisional mantra during the troubles was 'Brits Out' so maybe that gave people the idea?
    Brits means British soldiers!


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    #66
    blahfckingblah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭blahfckingblah


    junder wrote: »
    If you supported the pira then you supported the murder of people from
    My community, I can only interpret that as hate for my community

    well if you want to march with groups that have had links with loyalist paramilitarys then i can only interpret that as hate for my community


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    #67
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    Brits means British soldiers!

    Now you tell us :confused:

    Well I'm sure that many a Unionist might have thought that it was them they wanted out, them being British and all that.


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    #68
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    Brits means British soldiers!
    The biggest myth in all the conflict in Ulster. It does not mean British soldiers. It means the British people who live on Ulster soil.


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    #69
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Now you tell us :confused:

    Well I'm sure that many a Unionist might have thought that it was them they wanted out, them being British and all that.
    :confused::confused:


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    #70
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    The biggest myth in all the conflict in Ulster. It does not mean British soldiers. It means the British people who live on Ulster soil.

    The thing is that the Official IRA realized that if the British state withdrew there would be a blood bath and so called off their campaign. The Provisionals choose to continue and even engage in naked sectarian murders such as the Kingsmill massacre; yet they really want to claim that they have no ethnic hatred for the British people of Ulster?


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    #71
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    The biggest myth in all the conflict in Ulster. It does not mean British soldiers. It means the British people who live on Ulster soil.


    It was a slogan used by Irish republicans referring to their wish for there to be no British involvement in Ireland, including the British army and political involvement by Britain.People who live in Ulster who claim to be British are also Irish as Ulster is one of four provinces in the country of Ireland.


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    #72
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    realies wrote: »
    It was a slogan used by Irish republicans referring to their wish for there to be no British involvement in Ireland, including the British army and political involvement by Britain.People who live in Ulster who claim to be British are also Irish as Ulster is one of four provinces in the country of Ireland.

    Though they dont claim to be British- they are British!

    You could also argue that the Southern Irish are British given that they are from the British Isles- I suspect that if King James II had defeated William of Orange that everyone on the island would be happy to call themselves British today.


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    #73
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    junder wrote: »
    If you supported the pira then you supported the murder of people from
    My community, I can only interpret that as hate for my community

    ...which would be akin to saying that somebody wishing to see the end of the current Syrian regime hated the Syrian people.


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    #74
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    The thing is that the Official IRA realized that if the British state withdrew there would be a blood bath and so called off their campaign. The Provisionals choose to continue and even engage in naked sectarian murders such as the Kingsmill massacre; yet they really want to claim that they have no ethnic hatred for the British people of Ulster?
    Kingsmill was a sectarian murder with no political links. The PIRA disowned and denounced the group who carried it out and they were never heard from again.


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    #75
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    Hamlet Or Hecuba wrote: »
    The thing is that the Official IRA realized that if the British state withdrew there would be a blood bath and so called off their campaign. The Provisionals choose to continue and even engage in naked sectarian murders such as the Kingsmill massacre; yet they really want to claim that they have no ethnic hatred for the British people of Ulster?


    That's an untruth,The officials called a ceasefire after killing a young local british soldier home on leave in Derry and also after the bombing in aldershot in response to bloody sunday,The then Dublin leadership of the party also knew that they had no support from northern nationalists as they swanked around Gardiner street talking bull**** while the nationalist people where attacked and murdered by pro british loyalist murder gangs.Since then the OIRA has never had any significant support in the six counties.


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    #76
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    Kingsmill was a sectarian murder with no political links. The PIRA disowned and denounced the group who carried it out and they were never heard from again.

    Its come officially however that it was PIRA guns that were used- I think that might have even admitted it at this stage? Read Brendan Hughes's memoirs- he is relatively honest on the actual ethnic violence of the PIRA in 1970s Belfast.


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    #77
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    realies wrote: »
    That's a lie,The officials called a ceasefire after killing a young local british soldier home on leave in Derry and also after the bombing in aldershot in response to bloody sunday,The then Dublin leadership of the party also knew that they had no support from northern nationalists as they swanked around Gardiner street talking bull**** while the nationalist people where attacked and murdered by pro british loyalist murder gangs.Since then the OIRA has never had any significant support in the six counties.

    Untrue- that made up the majority of the Republican movement until their ceasefire. And sorry the fact that they realized what British withdrawal would mean and the danger of an all out inter-communal blood bath played the main role in their decision.


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    #78
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    The thing is that the Official IRA realized that if the British state withdrew there would be a blood bath and so called off their campaign. The Provisionals choose to continue and even engage in naked sectarian murders such as the Kingsmill massacre; yet they really want to claim that they have no ethnic hatred for the British people of Ulster?

    Were it an "ethnic" conflict in the minds of the protagonists it would have been a far more bloody affair.

    It was the opinion of some that there would a greater level of conflict, it was the opinion of others (amongst them the provisional movement) that such would not be the case.

    Have you any evidence to show that the provisional strategy was carried out with a belief that the conflict would increase in scale?


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    #79
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    realies wrote: »
    It was a slogan used by Irish republicans referring to their wish for there to be no British involvement in Ireland, including the British army and political involvement by Britain.People who live in Ulster who claim to be British are also Irish as Ulster is one of four provinces in the country of Ireland.

    But really, it must have been very off putting to have been British (Ulster Unionist) and to have "Brits Out" being chanted at every Republican Rally, surely if you are/were British it must have given you the impression that they wanted you (A Brit) out as they chanted, and surely if the Republicans had any love for their fellow British/Ulstermen they would'nt have chanted Brits Out! for fear of giving them the wrong impression.

    Imagine if Loyalist rallies had chanted "Irish Out" Irish out - Irish out > meaning Irish terrorist groups out of course (and not Irish Nationalists). I am sure there would be many an Irish person who may (correctly) have thought that the Loyalists meant Irish people out!


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    #80
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Nodin wrote: »
    Were it an "ethnic" conflict in the minds of the protagonists it would have been a far more bloody affair.

    It was the British Army that was standing in the way of an all out blood bath. Something you want to ignore but never the less true.


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    #81
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Nodin wrote: »
    Have you any evidence to show that the provisional strategy was carried out with a belief that the conflict would increase in scale?

    A yes Im sure once the British government said it was going to withdraw than the Unionist community would simply roll over and discover that they were really Irish in the Irish nationalist sense all along....Yeah right...If they said that tomorrow you would see something a lot more massive than the Loyalist paramilitaries because it would cross all classes and all shades of opinion in the Ulster British community.


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    #82
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Its come officially however that it was PIRA guns that were used- I think that might have even admitted it at this stage? Read Brendan Hughes's memoirs- he is relatively honest on the actual ethnic violence of the PIRA in 1970s Belfast.
    Where else do guns come from??
    Anyway I think we can all condemn what happened at Kingsmill but it has little to to with the armed struggle.


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    #83
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    It was the British Army that was standing in the way of an all out blood bath. Something you want to ignore but never the less true.

    That doesn't respond to what I asked. You stated -

    The PIRA knew that if the British state withdrew their would be a communal blood bath- and yet they carried out a terrorist campaign for long years to get the British state to do just that

    and
    The thing is that the Official IRA realized that if the British state withdrew there would be a blood bath and so called off their campaign. The Provisionals choose to continue............

    Do you have any evidence to show that the Provisional movement carried on a campaign, thinking that the end result of a British withdrawal would result in a bigger and more violent conflict?

    I'm also awaiting some proof of this "full blooded gael" thing.


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    #84
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Untrue- that made up the majority of the Republican movement until their ceasefire. And sorry the fact that they realized what British withdrawal would mean and the danger of an all out inter-communal blood bath played the main role in their decision.


    Goulding was trying to make the IRA a more political organisation and in particular to end the abstentionist policy. While initially the OIRA was the larger of the two groups, the PIRA quickly gained new recruits, and some former members of the OIRA, to become the largest Republican paramilitary organisation in Ireland

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/oorgan.htm#oira


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    #85
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Nodin wrote: »
    Do you have any evidence to show that the Provisional movement carried on a campaign, thinking that the end result of a British withdrawal would result in a bigger and more violent conflict?
    .

    Were the Provisionals retarded? No they werent.

    Were they fighting for British withdrawal? Yes they were.

    What other evidence to do you need?


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    #86
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Were the Provisionals retarded? No they werent.

    Were they fighting for British withdrawal? Yes they were.

    What other evidence to do you need?

    I'm sorry, thats just nonsense. You've made a number of extreme and specific claims thus far and have failed to provide a single piece of evidence to back them up.


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    #87
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    realies wrote: »
    It was a slogan used by Irish republicans referring to their wish for there to be no British involvement in Ireland, including the British army and political involvement by Britain.People who live in Ulster who claim to be British are also Irish as Ulster is one of four provinces in the country of Ireland.
    I disagree and so do hundreds of thousands of other people. We all know about the slogan and its meaning who live up here.


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    #88
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    Kingsmill was a sectarian murder with no political links. The PIRA disowned and denounced the group who carried it out and they were never heard from again.
    It recently came out that the group who did it was the PIRA. They just tried to cover it up. But that isn't the real issue to be honest for this thread.


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    #89
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    blahfckingblah wrote: »
    junder wrote: »
    If you supported the pira then you supported the murder of people from
    My community, I can only interpret that as hate for my community

    well if you want to march with groups that have had links with loyalist paramilitarys then i can only interpret that as hate for my community

    I dont march with any groups linked to loyalist paramilitary


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    #90
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    MOD NOTE:

    Just a reminder, this thread is about whether or not the Troubles could happen again in Northern Ireland. So this should be a rather forward-looking thread; I'm not sure why we are talking about the 1920s.

    I will also add that posters should not attribute beliefs or statements to political parties that are currently in government unless they are willing to back them up.


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    #91
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    junder wrote: »
    I am not in the orange but I am in a flute band, one that is 130 Years old and I am very much looking forward to the 12th this year

    Do us a favour and rip down any of those K.A.T. flags on the bonfires. Or give out profusely to anyone you hear singing bad things about the rest of us :p


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