Any concrete costed measures for reducing €16 billon hole in the public finances?

28-03-2012 03:23PM

a good bit more efficiency and streamlining in public sector stuff with associated redundancies

the true cost of public sector pensions according to this was 100 billion
http://pibasure.ie/news/225-true-cost-of-public-sector-pensions-bill-hits-100bn-irish-independent

cut off pension increases, and have the pension based on average salary rather than at retirement (this would kill off anyone getting a big increase in their last year of employment and then getting a pension based on that)

pension increases in a defined benefit pension really jack up the costs, so something as simple as that would really save lots, as would the final pensionable salary issue

kippy · 28-03-2012 03:26PM

bluewolf wrote: »

a good bit more efficiency and streamlining in public sector stuff with associated redundancies

the true cost of public sector pensions according to this was 100 billion
http://pibasure.ie/news/225-true-cost-of-public-sector-pensions-bill-hits-100bn-irish-independent

cut off pension increases, and have the pension based on average salary rather than at retirement (this would kill off anyone getting a big increase in their last year of employment and then getting a pension based on that)

pension increases in a defined benefit pension really jack up the costs, so something as simple as that would really save lots, as would the final pensionable salary issue

Those changes have been introduced for new entrants.
I dont think those changes if introduced for current workers would bridge the current gap but the would surely ensure costs are kept down in future.
There is defo more room for maneuvering around pensions in the public sector but not as much as some would have you believe.

28-03-2012 03:31PM

It may have been introduced for new entrants, but there is still going to be a massive past service accrual which, including increases, will add up.
Even if it applies to new entrants, there is also still going to be escalation accruing on future service for current members.
I would be keen to get my own hands on their data, because I'd say a chunk of the pension cost could be killed off by the simple removal of escalation for everyone, and introducing salary averaging.

Here, 2 billion in 5 years:
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1023262.shtml

It also agrees with me that:

In advance its HR Leadership Summit at the Convention Centre Dublin, IBEC today called for much more radical reform of public sector pensions than currently proposed by government. The group said it welcomed new plans to reduce the cost of pensions for new recruits, but said reform must also extend to the pension arrangements of existing public sector workers. Such reform could reduce the government's pensions liabilities by over €20bn.

LeinsterDub · 28-03-2012 03:32PM

Invest in IT. A small spend done properly could save the government a fourtune . A person dies? Death cert is completed online by a GP and automatically the revenue commissioners know they have a possible inheritance tax to calculate. Social welfare stop all payments to the person so we don't end up with phantom 120 years old collecting a pension etc

Tipp Man · 28-03-2012 03:33PM

kippy wrote: »

Those changes have been introduced for new entrants.

First off there is supposed to be a ban on new entrants

Secondly I know that some positions have had this ban lifted, with good cause, but how many people in the current 300 or 310 or 320k employees are actually new entrants??

Damn all is the answer

kippy · 28-03-2012 03:43PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Invest in IT. A small spend done properly could save the government a fourtune . A person dies? Dead cert is completed online by a GP and automatically the revenue commissioners know they a possible inherance tax to calculate. Social welfare stop all payments to the person so we don't end up with phantom 120 years old collecting a pension etc

Well, it's not just about investing in IT.
The state has invested heavily in many IT projects, some good, and some just a complete waste of money, ill advised, badly project managed and oftentimes contracted out without fully understanding the implications. Lots of public money has been "wasted" in the investment in IT. As such its about the integrated investment in IT and the collective purchasing/tendering power of the state as a whole. Massive inroads appear to have been made into this in the past number of years however more still needs to be done.
There's a lot of room for a shared services model in relation to backend support services for areas such as IT, HR, Payroll, Procurement, however as we have seen with the HSE and other projects none of this has really be realised.

Another area that kills performance in the public sector is increments and performance management. There is very little linakge between performance and pay, with the effect that those who do little get paid the same as those that do a lot, with the long term implication that those that do a lot lose interest. (among other issues)

Again, I've posted on this countless times, with some serious thought put into the posts and whatever will be said on this thread has been said countless times in the past.
I had also a lot of thoughts about governance streamlining, why so many politicians in this country, etc etc?

The fact of the mater is however, once the troika are happy with progress, progress will be slow.
I suppose we could have cut the deficit in the space of two or three years (which being honest was the way I would have preferred it), and this would have had serious implications. Instead it looks like it will take us anything up to 8-10 years (unless there is a massive bounce, which I think is what the government are hoping for). This long drawn out time frame is in it self leading to depressed confidence, people afraid to spend any money in case they'll need it for some other charge next year etc.

Anyway, good luck debating this one lads.

kippy · 28-03-2012 03:49PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

First off there is supposed to be a ban on new entrants

Secondly I know that some positions have had this ban lifted, with good cause, but how many people in the current 300 or 310 or 320k employees are actually new entrants??

Damn all is the answer

Indeed, there is. The point is, that this fundamental change to the pension arrangements of public servants will have long term benefits to the state. The 10% reduction in pay and the changed pension arrangements will make the cost of the state employing someone to be a lot lower than it is now.

The fact is, that any changes to existing serving staffs pensions won't have an effect on the deficit, until they retire. The only way you can effect the deficit now is to change the pension arrangements of current public sector pensioners.

When people hear about public sector pensions they automaticilly think of the "headline" figures, 300K lump sum and 50K a year type pensions, guys who never paid a penny towards them and get the COAP on top of that, when the truth is often very different.

What will happen for current public sector workers is the taxing of their lump sum pensions but that wont have a major effect on the current deficit.

kincsem · 28-03-2012 03:58PM

2,600 quangos. Reduce to 100.

Who takes up the slack? What slack?

relax carry on · 28-03-2012 04:02PM

kincsem wrote: »

2,600 quangos. Reduce to 100.

Who takes up the slack? What slack?

Have you actually thought about which ones to cut and which ones to keep? How much will it save and what do you do with the staff?

28-03-2012 04:05PM

kippy wrote: »

Indeed, there is. The point is, that this fundamental change to the pension arrangements of public servants will have long term benefits to the state. The 10% reduction in pay and the changed pension arrangements will make the cost of the state employing someone to be a lot lower than it is now.

The fact is, that any changes to existing serving staffs pensions won't have an effect on the deficit, until they retire. The only way you can effect the deficit now is to change the pension arrangements of current public sector pensioners.

It'll have a massive effect whether now or on retirement. It will have a massive effect on the funding rate needed to be paid by the govt for funding the scheme overall.
I don't know their practice on funding it, but it would bring the rate down a good bit.

It appears they pay 2 billion a year into it
http://pibasure.ie/news/380-lenihan-to-keep-close-eye-on-pension-fund-returns-irish-independent

this is part of what could be reduced.

When people hear about public sector pensions they automaticilly think of the "headline" figures, 300K lump sum and 50K a year type pensions, guys who never paid a penny towards them and get the COAP on top of that, when the truth is often very different.

What I think of is the figures I see every day working in DB.

Tipp Man · 28-03-2012 04:06PM

kippy wrote: »

Indeed, there is. The point is, that this fundamental change to the pension arrangements of public servants will have long term benefits to the state. The 10% reduction in pay and the changed pension arrangements will make the cost of the state employing someone to be a lot lower than it is now.

The fact is, that any changes to existing serving staffs pensions won't have an effect on the deficit, until they retire. The only way you can effect the deficit now is to change the pension arrangements of current public sector pensioners.

When people hear about public sector pensions they automaticilly think of the "headline" figures, 300K lump sum and 50K a year type pensions, guys who never paid a penny towards them and get the COAP on top of that, when the truth is often very different.

What will happen for current public sector workers is the taxing of their lump sum pensions but that wont have a major effect on the current deficit.

Why are you only talking about pensions, especially future pensions?

I would like to see current salaries and current pensions cut

To cure the future pensions timebomb - get rid of the defined benifit penion - bring in a defined contribution

Edit - that means for current workers also

KeithAFC · 28-03-2012 04:07PM

1 child per family policy is something which should perhaps be looked at. I ain't sure if the economic climate now can support larger families.

A cut in social welfare also is another good point which I have seen mentioned. Less put into foreign aid. For example, Palestine and the €7.5 million provided to Palestine by Irish Aid in 2007. Look to lower that. That is a lot of money which could be used for the Irish people in the Irish Republic.

Tax the rich a bit more.

Tipp Man · 28-03-2012 04:07PM

relax carry on wrote: »

Have you actually thought about which ones to cut and which ones to keep? How much will it save and what do you do with the staff?

Firstly i think the number of quangoes is in the 800-900 range - but whose counting - the government certainly aren't

If you don't know what to do with the staff then get rid of them - very simple

Tipp Man · 28-03-2012 04:09PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

1 child per family policy is something which should perhaps be looked at. I ain't sure if the economic climate now can support larger families.

A cut in social welfare also is another good point which I have seen mentioned. Less put into foreign aid. For example, Palestine and the €7.5 million provided to Palestine by Irish Aid in 2007. Look to lower that. That is a lot of money which could be used for the Irish people in the Irish Republic.

Tax the rich a bit more.

this isn't China we don't need a 1 child policy - things aren't that bad yet

Tipp Man · 28-03-2012 04:11PM

bluewolf wrote: »

It'll have a massive effect whether now or on retirement. It will have a massive effect on the funding rate needed to be paid by the govt for funding the scheme overall.
I don't know their practice on funding it, but it would bring the rate down a good bit.

It appears they pay 2 billion a year into it
http://pibasure.ie/news/380-lenihan-to-keep-close-eye-on-pension-fund-returns-irish-independent

this is part of what could be reduced.

What I think of is the figures I see every day working in DB.

Aren't pensions paid from current expenditure so there is no "plan"

The pension reserve was supposed to be rainy day money to cover this timebomb which is going to hit us - but it was not directly linked to anybody's pension

harmoniums · 28-03-2012 04:12PM

This ones a bit controversial.

Ban cash, only allow paper transaction.
Enforce VAT collection

kippy · 28-03-2012 04:13PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

Why are you only talking about pensions, especially future pensions?

I would like to see current salaries and current pensions cut

To cure the future pensions timebomb - get rid of the defined benifit penion - bring in a defined contribution

Edit - that means for current workers also

And you would be happy to get rid of the defined benefit COAP as well?

kippy · 28-03-2012 04:16PM

bluewolf wrote: »

It'll have a massive effect whether now or on retirement. It will have a massive effect on the funding rate needed to be paid by the govt for funding the scheme overall.
I don't know their practice on funding it, but it would bring the rate down a good bit.

It appears they pay 2 billion a year into it
http://pibasure.ie/news/380-lenihan-to-keep-close-eye-on-pension-fund-returns-irish-independent

this is part of what could be reduced.

What I think of is the figures I see every day working in DB.

It's empty at the moment and I beleive thats the general pensions pot (including OAP pensions)
I was under the impression that up until the NTMA came into existence pensions were funded from income, with no plan in place.
I believe the NPRF was created to assist in funding pensions down the line alright.

28-03-2012 04:17PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

Aren't pensions paid from current expenditure so there is no "plan"

The pension reserve was supposed to be rainy day money to cover this timebomb which is going to hit us - but it was not directly linked to anybody's pension

I wasn't sure, which is why I found that link - there is a national pensions fund and they do pay into it. An actuarial study which I linked earlier showed the funding rate to be about 30%.

Most public servants only pay around 5pc of their salary to fund their pensions, but the State ends up paying an equivalent of an additional 30pc of their salaries to cover the generous pensions, the study finds.

I know there has been no practice of having actuarial valuations for the public pensions as there is for private DB schemes, but I have a hazy recollection they might be starting

in any case, there are regular payments as shown in the link
and even if in worst case, kippy's posts about it only affecting soon to retire pensioners were true, it's still a big overall saving that could be made

bamboozle · 28-03-2012 04:27PM

read a few weeks back the dept of finance staff spent 70k last year on ringing 11850 despite having access to google and telephone directories. so my suggestion would be to hand running of govt departments to the trioka cause if the idiots in charge allow avoidable expendature like that they cant be trusted.

get rid of the Irish Army - pointless
Abolish the seanad, reduce dail eireann by 30 seats.
Sell state jets
any former politicians in receipt of state pensions found to have been acting corruptly while in office to lose their pensions.
No state pensions to kick in until 65 years of age - applicable to all politicians, army & gardai.
Continue moratorium in civil & public service hiring except for doctors, nurses & teachers (once average class size reduces to 34 kids per class)
reduce social welfare payments by 10% across the board, by a further 20% for long term unemployed/dole scroungers and by a further 40% for anyone under age of 25.
Means test childrens allowance & reduce existing allowance by 25%.
immediately stop all payments/grants to RTE, CIE & Bus Eireann.
Reduce overseas aid by 75%.

kippy · 28-03-2012 04:32PM

bluewolf wrote: »

I wasn't sure, which is why I found that link - there is a national pensions fund and they do pay into it. An actuarial study which I linked earlier showed the funding rate to be about 30%.

I know there has been no practice of having actuarial valuations for the public pensions as there is for private DB schemes, but I have a hazy recollection they might be starting

in any case, there are regular payments as shown in the link
and even if in worst case, kippy's posts about it only affecting soon to retire pensioners were true, it's still a big overall saving that could be made

When was that study done Blue wolf?
When all figures realated to pension are summed up current public sector workers pay between 11 and 14 percent of their salaries towards the public sector portion of their pension. Their final pension is inclusive of the COAP as well, so this is often ignored in any calculations.
Again, I dont suggest that pensions should be left alone, they are a very big part of overall spend.
Anyway, Im finished on this thread, way too much de ja vu.

28-03-2012 04:37PM

kippy wrote: »

When was that study done Blue wolf?
When all figures realated to pension are summed up current public sector workers pay between 11 and 14 percent of their salaries towards the public sector portion of their pension. Their final pension is inclusive of the COAP as well, so this is often ignored in any calculations.
Again, I dont suggest that pensions should be left alone, they are a very big part of overall spend.
Anyway, Im finished on this thread, way too much de ja vu.

Calculations are generally based on pensionable salary which does indeed take into account the COAP

the link said the study was new in November 2011
http://pibasure.ie/news/225-true-cost-of-public-sector-pensions-bill-hits-100bn-irish-independent

11-14% of salaries is simply not enough to fund these benefits, which is why the govt must pay an additional 30% as quoted.

The reason I keep on about pensions is that I'm not talking about redundancies (although these are probably quite necessary) cutting salaries (ditto, for highest paid people), I'm not talking about severely cutting pensions, I'm not talking about removing the TFLS - I am highlighting that a very simple cut of escalation on pensions could save a lot of money. And it's something people would hardly feel.

kippy · 28-03-2012 04:44PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Calculations are generally based on pensionable salary which does indeed take into account the COAP

the link said the study was new in November 2011
http://pibasure.ie/news/225-true-cost-of-public-sector-pensions-bill-hits-100bn-irish-independent

11-14% of salaries is simply not enough to fund these benefits, which is why the govt must pay an additional 30% as quoted.

The reason I keep on about pensions is that I'm not talking about redundancies (although these are probably quite necessary) cutting salaries (ditto, for highest paid people), I'm not talking about severely cutting pensions, I'm not talking about removing the TFLS - I am highlighting that a very simple cut of escalation on pensions could save a lot of money. And it's something people would hardly feel.

I'd agree broadly with that summation, however I feel that we have major issues with pensions in general in this country, some people get too much, some too little, very few fund any section of their state pension. The biggest issue with the public sector pension, is the link to final salary as opposed to linking to average salary over service, this is what pushes up the funding costs and means that overall the worker does not fund as much of the final pension pot as they should.
I suppose the 5% used in that article is the amount paid towards the total pot which is a fair figure.

Overall, I think the pension arrangements of public and private sector as well as state pensions need to be completly overhauled (I have stated this in the past)

Thats a very interesting article btw, I hadnt see it before. It looks very accurate and covers more accurately than any I have read before the reality of the situation.

John Doe1 · 28-03-2012 04:46PM

sell our kids into slavery?

KeithAFC · 28-03-2012 04:59PM

John Doe1 wrote: »

sell our kids into slavery?

The kids will never be better than the grown up man..:pac:

europa11 · 28-03-2012 05:00PM

~ Merge the services of our 40 or so City and County Councils into no more than 7 Regional Authorities.
If anyone cribs re G.A.A. identity, etc. tell 'em that our 'counties' were by and large British creations anyway (that should bring the Shinners on side or at least keep them quiet for once).

~ Quangos, immediate cull of at least 60% with review of all remaining ones.

~ Cut all politicians/CS Pensions until age 65 (as mentioned earlier) and ditto regarding comments to scrap "Irish Aid", although I.A. offices should remain open to accept inward donations.

~ Scrap the Croke Park Agreement. Actually don't scrap it, shred it.

~ Career criminals to be sent to less comfortable island-based WW2 style prison huts off atlantic coast (Charlies' island could be first). Sell prisons in urban areas or convert to schools/museums.

~ Free Legal Aid system review, limit use of FLA to no more than three per person in lifetime, habitual criminals might think twice about running up convictions if paying for their briefs.

~ Privatise Cork and Shannon Airports.

~ Stop paying for the building of UK motorways (i.e. Derry to Aughnacloy), this promise was made by Bertie. Infact(a), any deals struck by that cnut should be reviewed regarding costs.

~The Seanad - kill it off now.

~ Close a few more embassies.

bamboozle · 28-03-2012 05:13PM

europa11 wrote: »

~ Merge the services of our 40 or so City and County Councils into no more than 7 Regional Authorities.
If anyone cribs re G.A.A. identity, etc. tell 'em that our 'counties' were by and large British creations anyway (that should bring the Shinners on side or at least keep them quiet for once).

~ Quangos, immediate cull of at least 60% with review of all remaining ones.

~ Cut all politicians/CS Pensions until age 65 (as mentioned earlier) and ditto regarding comments to scrap "Irish Aid", although I.A. offices should remain open to accept inward donations.

~ Scrap the Croke Park Agreement. Actually don't scrap it, shred it.

~ Career criminals to be sent to less comfortable island-based WW2 style prison huts off atlantic coast (Charlies' island could be first). Sell prisons in urban areas or convert to schools/museums.

~ Free Legal Aid system review, limit use of FLA to no more than three per person in lifetime, habitual criminals might think twice about running up convictions if paying for their briefs.

~ Privatise Cork and Shannon Airports.

~ Stop paying for the building of UK motorways (i.e. Derry to Aughnacloy), this promise was made by Bertie. Infact(a), any deals struck by that cnut should be reviewed regarding costs.

~The Seanad - kill it off now.

~ Close a few more embassies.

if we did the opposite of what bertie did we'd be well on the way to recovery.

great point re the FLA.

Wibbs · 28-03-2012 05:41PM

relax carry on wrote: »

Thanks for that. Any idea how much that would close the 16 billon gap by? And do you think there would be much opposition?

It would make us more efficient. This would help grow the economy. Particularly if we looked closer at other costs that are anti enterprise(fuel and leccy prices for a start). Yes there would be opposition, but the fact is folks we're boned and we have to start somewhere.

As for the troika and the EU, I think we still need to play hardball. We held a good hand a year ago and fcuk all has actually changed though it's not at the top of the news. Spain is contracting and her dole queues are getting longer particularly among young people 18-30. That's really bad and worse than the overal stat looks, bad enough as it is. Portugal is in a well dodgy fiscal state and Italy is in a holding pattern, as for Greece... The risk of contagion is most certainly still there and we should use that to get better deals on these debts IMHO.

KeithAFC wrote: »

1 child per family policy is something which should perhaps be looked at. I ain't sure if the economic climate now can support larger families.

We've one of the lowest populations densities in the EU(as do yourselves in Ulster). We've also one of the highest if not the highest birth rates. Italy for example are not even replacing themselves. Indeed I'll put money down now that this stat will stand to us down the line. It's effectively what started the celtic tiger before it went nuts. A large babyboomer wave came along between the mid 80s-90's and they needed housing and services etc.

A cut in social welfare also is another good point which I have seen mentioned. Less put into foreign aid. For example, Palestine and the €7.5 million provided to Palestine by Irish Aid in 2007. Look to lower that. That is a lot of money which could be used for the Irish people in the Irish Republic.

Would that Palestine was the most of it..Palestinian aid is a drop in the bucket Keith. The most up to date figure I read was well over half a billion to overseas aid.

Tax the rich a bit more.

Difficult as the rich will just move. That's what too many on the extreme left neglect to understand. This will reduce investment in the country and reduce the impetus too create wealth and therefore jobs and industry in the first place. If I had a good idea and backing why set up in a country where more of your earnings will be taken away? Bad plan.

kincsem · 28-03-2012 06:06PM

relax carry on wrote: »

Have you actually thought about which ones to cut and which ones to keep? How much will it save and what do you do with the staff?

Is that information available, or is it difficult to gather? I'd say it is difficult to gather.

From Wiki: Ireland in 2006 had more than 800 quangos, 482 at national and 350 at local level, with a total of 5,784 individual appointees and a combined annual budget of €13 billion. Remember the presidential election? One of the candidates had quite a few nice little appointments.
Shane Ross wrote that it is now 2,600+ quangos and the boards stuffed with political appointees. That is a tripling of quangos is a few years. A list here http://quangos-ireland.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Irish_Quangos but no staff numbers or costs surprisingly.

You would probably need to "freedom of information act" every one of the quangos to find out what they do (or don't do).

I doubt that list is complete but searching with the word "food" gives

Scientific Committee of the Food Safety Authority
Food Safety Authority of Ireland
Food Safety Promotion Board
Food Safety Consultative Council

c_man · 28-03-2012 06:06PM

Get rid of a sh!tload of the councils around the country. It's madness the amount of government that seems to be needed for a relatively small population.

Any concrete costed measures for reducing €16 billon hole in the public finances?

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