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"The Origin of Specious Nonsense"

1…289290292294295…328

Comments

  • #8732
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    sephir0th wrote: »
    tumblr_m1bkv1ib691qigccso1_500.jpg
    That isn't quote mining ... it's truncation.:)


  • #8733
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,151 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    That isn't quote mining ... it's truncation.:)

    I see you didn't get the dictionary. Allow me to help, as you seem to be missing the point of the image.
    Quote Mining.

    The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy" or "quote mining", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #8734
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    koth wrote: »
    I see you didn't get the dictionary. Allow me to help, as you seem to be missing the point of the image.
    Please take your own advice and consult a dictionary ... the passage is truncated ... here is the full Ps14:1 ... this is it:-

    Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    The message is very clear once a full sentence is quoted.
    Quoting a partial sentence is truncation.
    wrote:
    Quote Mining.
    The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy" or "quote mining", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.

    I always quote full sentences with full references to allow everybody to see it's context.


  • #8735
    shizz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭shizz


    J C wrote: »
    Please take your own advice and consult a dictionary ... the passage is truncated ... here is the full Ps14:1 ... this is it:-

    Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    The message is very clear once a full sentence is quoted.
    Quoting a partial sentence is truncation.



    I always quote full sentences with full references to allow everybody to see it's context.

    Truncation means shortening a sentence to make it smaller. It doesn't necessarily mean taking something out of context to give it the appearance of backing up your argument, where as quote mining is exactly that.


  • #8736
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,151 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Please take your own advice and consult a dictionary ... the passage is truncated ... here is the full Ps14:1 ... this is it:-

    Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    The message is very clear once a full sentence is quoted.
    Quoting a partial sentence is truncation.

    I always quote full sentences with full references to allow everybody to see it's context.

    The response above shows that you've completely missed the point of the image and the clarification I provided.

    I never said that the text wasn't truncated. You just choose to focus as a distraction from the the actual meat of the image/post you replied to, i.e. the definition of quote mining.

    I do hope this has clarified your confusion. If you require any further assistance, don't hesitate to ask.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #8737
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Message from God ... just in:-

    RECALL NOTICE:
    The Maker of all Human Beings (GOD) is recalling all units manufactured, regardless of make or year, due to a serious defect in the primary and central component of the heart.
    This is due to a self-inflicted malfunction in the original prototype units code named Adam and Eve, resulting in the reproduction of the same defect in all subsequent units.
    This defect has been identified as "Subsequential Internal Non-morality," more commonly known as S.I.N., as it is primarily expressed.

    Some of the SIN symptoms include:
    1. Loss of direction
    2. Foul vocal emissions
    3. Amnesia of origin
    4. Lack of peace and joy
    5. Selfish or violent behavior
    6. Depression or confusion
    7. Fearfulness
    8. Idolatry
    9. Rebellion
    The Manufacturer, who is neither liable nor at fault for this defect, is providing factory-authorized repair and service free of charge to correct this defect.
    The Repair Technician, JESUS, has most generously offered to bear the entire burden of the staggering cost of these repairs. There is no additional fee required.
    The number to call for repair in all areas is: P-R-A-Y-E-R.

    Once connected, please upload your burden of SIN through the REPENTANCE procedure.
    Next, download ATONEMENT from Jesus, into the heart component.

    No matter how big or small the SIN defect is, Jesus will replace it with:
    1. Love
    2. Joy
    3. Peace
    4. Patience
    5. Kindness
    6. Goodness
    7. Faithfulness
    8. Gentleness
    9. Self control

    Please see the operating manual, the B.I.B.L.E. (BEST Instructions Before Leaving Earth) for further details on the use of these fixes.

    WARNING: Continuing to operate the human being unit without correction voids any manufacturer warranties, exposing the unit to dangers and problems too numerous to list, and will result in the human unit being permanently impounded at death. For free emergency service, call on Jesus.

    - GOD

    P.S. You may contact the Father any time by 'Knee mail'!

    Because HE Lives ... and Loves You!!!


  • #8738
    shizz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭shizz


    I think we broke him....


  • #8739
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,151 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Message from God ... just in:-

    RECALL NOTICE:
    The Maker of all Human Beings (GOD) is recalling all units manufactured, regardless of make or year, due to a serious defect in the primary and central component of the heart.
    This is due to a self-inflicted malfunction in the original prototype units code named Adam and Eve, resulting in the reproduction of the same defect in all subsequent units.
    This defect has been identified as "Subsequential Internal Non-morality," more commonly known as S.I.N., as it is primarily expressed.

    Some of the symptoms include:
    1. Loss of direction
    2. Foul vocal emissions
    3. Amnesia of origin
    4. Lack of peace and joy
    5. Selfish or violent behavior
    6. Depression or confusion
    7. Fearfulness
    8. Idolatry
    9. Rebellion
    The Manufacturer, who is neither liable nor at fault for this defect, is providing factory-authorized repair and service free of charge to correct this defect.
    The Repair Technician, JESUS, has most generously offered to bear the entire burden of the staggering cost of these repairs. There is no additional fee required.
    The number to call for repair in all areas is: P-R-A-Y-E-R.

    Once connected, please upload your burden of SIN through the REPENTANCE procedure.
    Next, download ATONEMENT from Jesus, into the heart component.

    No matter how big or small the SIN defect is, Jesus will replace it with:
    1. Love
    2. Joy
    3. Peace
    4. Patience
    5. Kindness
    6. Goodness
    7. Faithfulness
    8. Gentleness
    9. Self control

    Please see the operating manual, the B.I.B.L.E. (BEST Instructions Before Leaving Earth) for further details on the use of these fixes.

    WARNING: Continuing to operate the human being unit without correction voids any manufacturer warranties, exposing the unit to dangers and problems too numerous to list, and will result in the human unit being permanently impounded. For free emergency service, call on Jesus.

    - GOD

    P.S. You may contact the Father any time by 'Knee mail'!

    Because HE Lives ... and Loves You!!!

    I make a well intended offer of help and God gets passive aggressive on your behalf?

    that seems like a very childish response, especially when considered against the age of the deity. Of course the logical explanation is that it's another poor attempt at wit to deflect attention from the egg on your face.

    If you're unwilling to engage like an adult on this thread, why do you continue to post here?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #8740
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭RichieC


    J C wrote: »
    Message from God ... just in:-

    RECALL NOTICE:
    The Maker of all Human Beings (GOD) is recalling all units manufactured, regardless of make or year, due to a serious defect in the primary and central component of the heart.
    This is due to a self-inflicted malfunction in the original prototype units code named Adam and Eve, resulting in the reproduction of the same defect in all subsequent units.
    This defect has been identified as "Subsequential Internal Non-morality," more commonly known as S.I.N., as it is primarily expressed.

    Some of the SIN symptoms include:
    1. Loss of direction
    2. Foul vocal emissions
    3. Amnesia of origin
    4. Lack of peace and joy
    5. Selfish or violent behavior
    6. Depression or confusion
    7. Fearfulness
    8. Idolatry
    9. Rebellion
    The Manufacturer, who is neither liable nor at fault for this defect, is providing factory-authorized repair and service free of charge to correct this defect.
    The Repair Technician, JESUS, has most generously offered to bear the entire burden of the staggering cost of these repairs. There is no additional fee required.
    The number to call for repair in all areas is: P-R-A-Y-E-R.

    Once connected, please upload your burden of SIN through the REPENTANCE procedure.
    Next, download ATONEMENT from Jesus, into the heart component.

    No matter how big or small the SIN defect is, Jesus will replace it with:
    1. Love
    2. Joy
    3. Peace
    4. Patience
    5. Kindness
    6. Goodness
    7. Faithfulness
    8. Gentleness
    9. Self control

    Please see the operating manual, the B.I.B.L.E. (BEST Instructions Before Leaving Earth) for further details on the use of these fixes.

    WARNING: Continuing to operate the human being unit without correction voids any manufacturer warranties, exposing the unit to dangers and problems too numerous to list, and will result in the human unit being permanently impounded at death. For free emergency service, call on Jesus.

    - GOD

    P.S. You may contact the Father any time by 'Knee mail'!

    Because HE Lives ... and Loves You!!!

    Depression is a sin now? get...the **** out.

    Oh wait, I get it, it's a symptom of Sinning... get...the **** out.


  • #8741
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    No, I wouldn't be confusing anything. I was pointing out that separately to the massive amounts of evidence acquired through research into genetics, biochemistry and palaeontology, the existence of intermediate stages of eye development in extant creatures helps us to understand how an eye as complex as ours developed in the first place. Darwin himself said it best:

    "if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real."
    ... the main issue is that all of these different eyes ... have different functional genetic information that are tiny 'islands' of functionality in an 'ocean' of non-functional genetic combinatorial 'space' ... so how does NS 'cross' this non-functional space ... where every combination is just as useless as every other one?
    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Laws of Thermodynamics, eh?

    Maybe you could point out which of these you think causes a problem in what I've posted:

    0th Law: If system A and system B are individually in thermal equilibrium with system C, then system A is in thermal equilibrium with system B

    1st Law: Increase in internal energy of a system = heat supplied to the system - work done by the system.

    2nd Law: The entropy of any closed system not in thermal equilibrium almost always increases.

    3rd Law: The entropy of a system approaches a constant value as the temperature approaches zero.
    The Second Law ... is the reason why spontaneous systems don't decrease in entropy except with an intelligent input.

    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    No, not like that - like that!
    ... I think that it was 'not like this ... ... like that!!!':)
    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    I have already posted the origin of light sensitivity in C. elegans as well as the origin of opsin although you seem to have problems making it past the abstract. Like I have said, the evolution of photosensitivity is well understood and supported by research. Since actual research papers seem to be beyond your comprehension maybe these might be more suitable:

    Eyespot apparatus

    Evolution of the eye

    Failing that you may, as koth suggested, want to invest in a good dictionary instead. Baby steps, JC.
    Living processes ... including the sight cascade are observed to be highly complex, tightly specified functional systems ... just like their Human-manufactured analogues.
    Manufacturing processes don't use random changes to 'improve' the design or functionality of their products ... so why do you think that living processes are an exception to this fact?
    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    The only thing I realise about CFSI is that it is a meaningless term which you have been unwilling or unable to define, quantify or support and which you spout whenever anybody posts something to which you have no response.
    Complex Functional Specified Information is self-explanitory ... but if you prefer you may call it Genetic Information.

    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Who said anything about spontaneously. This isn't I Dream of Jeannie! This is a change that occurred gradually. OK, maybe I oversimplified the process but silly me, there I was thinking about you claiming to be a scientist. What a foolish assumption.
    Something that is impossible ... is still impossible ... no matter how long you give it!!!
    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    The lens of the eye developed through a gradual build-up of mucus secreting cells resulting in the development of a layer of transparent epithelial cells. The modern human lens is derived from epithelial cells which contain a high degree of crystallin.
    Are you for real???
    The supposed first creatures to develop were all water dwellers ... and therefore any mucus produced would simply be dissolved in the water.

    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Evidence supporting this can be seen throughout nature in dogs, cats and birds. If you own a dog or cat, you will have noticed (or maybe not) that dogs and cats have vestigial traces of what are known as nictitating membranes. These transparent third eyelids protect and moisten the eye while retaining visibility.
    The Human eyelid performs the same function.
    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Anyway, not that I expect you to read any of this but for anyone else interested in the evolution of the lens and the key components such as crystallin, some of the research:

    Molecular Evolution of the βγ Lens Crystallin Superfamily: Evidence for a Retained Ancestral Function in γN Crystallins?

    Eye evolution: Lens and cornea as an upgrade of animal visual system

    Genetics of crystallins: Cataract and beyond




    Wow, a blatant lie and a dishonest misrepresentation all rolled into one moronic comment.

    Firstly, Mendel discovered no such thing. Mutations can be beneficial as well as deleterious and I have already pointed that out to you here, here and here.
    The vary rare 'beneficial' mutations and the common deleterious ones all result in degraded genetic information.
    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Secondly, lots of posters here have already corrected your pathetic strawman about the directionality of evolution. Evolution is not a ladder upward toward humanity as you seem to think biologists claim or downward from supposed creation as you claim. It's more like a treadmill.
    ... I agree that Evolution is observed to be going round in circles ... or rapidly downhill!!!
    ... but that provides no evidence for the massive increase in functional genetic information observed between microbes and Man.


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    The rest of your post is just the same repetitive CFSI horse**** with no evidence offered as a counterargument so I'll leave it there. When you come up with some actual evidence, I'll still be here.
    ... and so will I ... when you come up with actual evidence for the spontaneous development of Complex Functional Specified Information.
    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Oh, and one final final comment on ad hominems. Since you either didn't understand or didn't read the link I provided let me make it simple for you.


    This is an ad-hominem fallacy:

    You're wrong BECAUSE you're an idiot.


    This is what I have been saying:

    You're wrong AND you're an idiot.


    See the difference?
    ... all I see there is an idiot ... talking to himself!!!:)


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  • #8742
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,151 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Have you just asked oldrnwsr to prove creationism for you? :confused:

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #8743
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    RichieC wrote: »
    Depression is a sin now? get...the **** out.

    Oh wait, I get it, it's a symptom of Sinning... get...the **** out.
    ... depression has many causes ... but sometimes it can be a symptom of a guilty conscience.

    Interesting that the Boards prevents sinning ... by automatically preventing the use of foul language.:)


  • #8744
    shizz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭shizz


    J C wrote: »
    ... depression has many causes ... but sometimes it can be a symptom of a guilty conscience.

    Interesting that the Boards prevents sinning ... by automatically preventing the use of foul language.:)

    Except the difference is our moderators are seen to actively censor and prevent that "sin". Where as your god sits on his hole and demands you don't sin through a 2000+ year old book right?

    oh also moderators are real. Can't forget that now.


  • #8745
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    The best part of J.C.s previous nonsense was that he basically said God made a mistake.


  • #8746
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,138 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    J C wrote: »
    All of the Creation Scientists that I know are honourable decent people, of the highest intellectual and moral probity.

    Cough... Kent Hovind... Cough


  • #8747
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭RichieC


    phutyle wrote: »
    Cough... Kent Hovind... Cough

    No true scotsman!1`11


  • #8748
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    shizz wrote: »
    Except the difference is our moderators are seen to actively censor and prevent that "sin". Where as your god sits on his hole and demands you don't sin through a 2000+ year old book right?

    oh also moderators are real. Can't forget that now.
    Yes God gives you the freedom to repent of your sin ... or not.

    He also doesn't prevent you sinning ... you have to do that yourself ... with His assistance ... if you ask Him.


  • #8749
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭RichieC


    J C wrote: »
    Yes God gives you the freedom to repent of your sin ... or not.

    He also doesn't prevent you sinning ... you have to do that yourself ... with His assistance ... if you ask Him.

    Is this a discussion on evolution or your thread to parody religious evangelism?


  • #8750
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,151 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Yes God gives you the freedom to repent of your sin ... or not.

    He also doesn't prevent you sinning ... you have to do that yourself ... with His assistance ... if you ask Him.

    that's just gross!:eek:

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #8751
    shizz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭shizz


    J C wrote: »
    Yes God gives you the freedom to repent of your sin ... or not.

    He also doesn't prevent you sinning ... you have to do that yourself ... with His assistance ... if you ask Him.

    Hold on. He doesn't prevent me from sinning yet I have to do it myself with his assistance? Riiiiiiight.

    JC, the only person responsible for me not sinning is myself. If you think you need a higher power to help you with that then It's a bit worrying.


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  • #8752
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    So... How about that mathematically robust definition of cfsi that J C keeps failing to provide?

    I mean, it's fun and all to watch him say incredibly stupid things, but he keeps straying off topic in his haste to avoid admitting his dishonesty and endless stream of ad hominems. Real ad hominems now, none of the stuff J C is whining about. That stuff is generally backed up with evidence, and can't be called an ad hominem by anyone with a shred of integrity...


  • #8753
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Also, that bit where J C said depression was a result of sin? That's pretty despicable, and you owe a very big damn apology to everyone for such an amazing display of asshattery.


  • #8754
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Sarky wrote: »
    Also, that bit where J C said depression was a result of sin? That's pretty despicable, and you owe a very big damn apology to everyone for such an amazing display of asshattery.

    I think he's long sunk below the level of contempt. I doubt anyone would seriously take offence from his ridiculousness.


  • #8755
    Evade
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,897 ✭✭✭Evade


    J C wrote: »
    The number to call for repair in all areas is: P-R-A-Y-E-R.
    The CNN tip line is about to get some weird messages.


  • #8756
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭swampgas


    J C wrote: »
    Message from God ... just in:-

    RECALL NOTICE:

    <waffle>

    The Manufacturer, who is neither liable nor at fault for this defect, is providing factory-authorized repair and service free of charge to correct this defect.

    Anyone else find it amusing that the omnipotent creator needs a disclaimer clause? :D


  • #8757
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    J C wrote: »
    ... the main issue is that all of these different eyes ... have different functional genetic information that are tiny 'islands' of functionality in an 'ocean' of non-functional genetic combinatorial 'space' ... so how does NS 'cross' this non-functional space ... where every combination is just as useless as every other one?

    OK, I'm going to say this for the last time. Following this I will ignore any of these type of comments you make, just so we're clear. First, natural selection is a deterministic process not a random one. Secondly, until such time as you are willing to both quantify and support your CSFI/CFSI/FSIC/CIFS etc. then there's no point commenting on it.


    J C wrote: »
    The Second Law ... is the reason why spontaneous systems don't decrease in entropy except with an intelligent input.

    Where does the 2nd Law mention spontaneous. The 2nd law applies to closed systems, which the earth isn't.

    And seeing as you mention it, you're confusing order with entropy. We have already observed instances where an increase in order is associated with an increase in entropy.

    http://www.sciencemag.org/content/285/5426/394.short

    http://www.sciencemag.org/content/279/5358/1849.short

    http://ajp.aapt.org/resource/1/ajpias/v68/i12/p1090_s1?isAuthorized=no

    So maybe you'd like to try that one again?

    J C wrote: »
    Living processes ... including the sight cascade are observed to be highly complex, tightly specified functional systems ... just like their Human-manufactured analogues.
    Manufacturing processes don't use random changes to 'improve' the design or functionality of their products ... so why do you think that living processes are an exception to this fact?

    Stop talking ****e, JC.

    Natural selection has formed the basis of many manufacturing processes. You might want to read these before making any more stupid comments:

    Genetic algorithm

    List of genetic algorithm applications

    Computer-automated design

    Evolutionary computing

    and here is Richard Dawkins explaining how it works:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok_tcAEbHHw


    J C wrote: »
    Complex Functional Specified Information is self-explanitory ... but if you prefer you may call it Genetic Information.

    So you're saying that DNA is your idea of the CFSI implanted by your "intelligent designer" aka the Christian God? Really?

    J C wrote: »
    Are you for real???
    The supposed first creatures to develop were all water dwellers ... and therefore any mucus produced would simply be dissolved in the water.

    Did you leave your brain at the door before posting that? Do you have any idea how stupid it looks? I guess not.

    Mucus does not dissolve in water. In fact in many cases, the mucus secreted by aquatic creatures reacts to water, expanding in volume and becoming stickier. Lots of aquatic creatures secrete external mucus, particularly bony fish and hagfish. Do some reading and stop making such idiotic comments.

    Mucus

    Hagfish


    J C wrote: »
    The Human eyelid performs the same function.


    And? So? Therefore?

    What does what you have just said have anything to do with my last post?


    J C wrote: »
    The vary rare 'beneficial' mutations and the common deleterious ones all result in degraded genetic information.

    Stop repeating the same lies over and over. If you had read "The Evolution of Biological Complexity" which I posted you would see that not to be the case.

    Even by the criteria of information theory these mutations count as an increase in genetic information.

    J C wrote: »
    ... all I see there is an idiot ... talking to himself!!!:)

    Excuse me?

    Oh, and before I forget
    J C wrote: »
    Atheistic Humanism is also a faith-based belief (in the non-existence of God).
    All Faiths are seeking after truth ... and I believe that Christianity has the truth.

    No, JC, atheism is not a faith, neither is atheistic humanism. Most people here don't believe in a god. They do not positively believe that there are no gods. You should try and understand the difference between those two positions.

    You can believe in the truth of Christianity all you want. Unfortunately you don't have any evidence, do you? After all, Paul said it best in 1 Corinthians 15:

    "If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised."

    Christianity stands or falls with the resurrection. Without evidence for that you're stuffed!


    Doc_Savage wrote: »
    anyone else loving the way JC has changed "evidence" to "unambiguous evidence" since oldrnwisr has started putting up those belters of posts?

    Thanks Doc. The thing is though I think when JC says unambiguous evidence he means evidence he can't explain away using creationism but since he's a master of cognitive dissonance management I can't see that happening.


  • #8758
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    J C wrote: »
    ... OK ... we're not Elephants ... we're not Crocodiles ... and we're not Apes.
    We're Specially Created Humans ... and that is why we drive cars ... debate Evolution on the Boards.ie ... and none of the other creatures will ever do so.

    We are apes JC. By every measurable definition of the term ape, we are apes and sticking your fingers in your ears isn't going to change that. But me repeatedly saying it isn't going to have much effect probably so I'd better show you instead.


    The Concordant Evidence for Human Evolution



    1. Chromosomal fusion as evidence of common ancestry

    I'm going to start with this because it's something that I've covered previously. I'm not going to go through the details of it again. If you wish to read it you can do so here or here. Instead I will post the research supporting it which I neglected to do last time.


    Origin of human chromosome 2: an ancestral telomere-telomere fusion

    Evidence for an ancestral alphoid domain on the long arm of human chromosome 2

    The origin of human chromosome 2 analyzed by comparative chromosome mapping with a DNA microlibrary

    Ask A Geneticist - Why the fusion of chromosome 2 is not explained by common design


    2. Endogenuous Retroviruses

    For this point and the next I'm going to discuss some points that I first raised in the other evolution thread.

    The first of these is endogenuous retroviruses (ERV). ERVs are single-stranded RNA viruses that inject a portion of their genome into the host DNA through a process of reverse transcription. Unlike HIV, for example, these viruses are capable of infecting germline cells and so get passed on to the next generation. By examining these sequences in humans and comparing them with sequences found in other apes we can see a clear pattern of common descent.

    erv.png

    The reason that ERVs demonstrate evidence for common descent is simple. Since the virus is endogenuous, it is retained in all descendant branches. So all offspring of an ancestral creature will retain the same ERV strain. If the descendants of a creature diverge and become disparate groups, then each group can pick up a new or mutated ERV which will then be retained in that branch only.
    Let's say that we have a crown species for all mammals (theria) which we'll call mammalia commonalis. This picks up an exogenuous virus which infects its germ cells. We'll call this virus ERV1. Now, a couple of steps down the line, we have a split between glires and euarchonta. Here, the crown species for glires which we'll call glirus originalis acquires a new virus, ERV2. Next, another few steps down the line, simiiformes diverge from tarsiiformes, with the simiiformes crown species, which we'll call simius primus acquiring a new virus, ERV3.
    So when we look at humans, what do we expect to find. We should find a copy of ERV1 which we share with all other mammals, and a copy of ERV3 which is shared only by other simiiformes, but we should not expect to find a copy of ERV2. Also if we look at another species in the same group as us, say chimpanzees, we should not expect to find a copy of ERV2 there either.
    Humans, at this point, have 30,000 such ERV sequences in our genome and the evidence we have gathered from comparative genomic analysis of these sequences demonstrates our common descent with other species.

    Primer on ERVs:

    Endogenuous retrovirus

    Research papers:

    Differences in HERV-K LTR insertions in orthologous loci of humans and great apes

    Genomewide screening for fusogenic human endogenous retrovirus envelopes identifies syncytin 2, a gene conserved on primate evolution

    Human Endogenous Retrovirus Family HERV-K(HML-5): Status, Evolution, and Reconstruction of an Ancient Betaretrovirus in the Human Genome


    If you want a more specific example of this type of evidence, here is some material on Bornavirus. (Disclaimer: Bornavirus is a non-retroviral RNA virus and so different from the ERVs detailed above but has still replicated in the same fashion)

    Bornavirus

    Borna disease

    Endogenous non-retroviral RNA virus elements in mammalian genomes


    3. Chromosomal errors

    This section deals with shared chromosomal errors in primates. Sometimes, because our bodies are not that great at copying our genetic information when it comes time for reproduction, an error will be introduced which can render a gene or larger portion of the chromosome useless.
    Take, Down's syndrome for example. This is caused by three copies of chromosome 21 being included in the foetus instead of two. Down's isn't the only trisomy syndrome in medicine but it's the most common since chromosome 21 is the smallest chromosome and the only one which the human genome can safely accomodate in triplicate. It is also highly age dependent with the chances of Down's occurring during pregnancy dropping from 1 in 200,000 for a 19 year-old female to 1 in 50 for a 39 year-old.

    3a - Human chromosome 6
    One of the more recent examples of common descent based on chromsomal analysis is the study of a neocentromere on human chromosome 6. An ancient chromosome at some point about 17 million years ago moved position and was rendered functionless. This change is shared in primates and the various mutations in the centromere sequence allowed the chromosome to be dated to between 17 and 23 million years ago. The image below is a simplified version of the graphic presented in the paper which shows how the analysis from each primate allowed the phylogeny of the original centromere to be determined.

    chromosomephylogenetics.png

    Original paper:

    Evolutionary descent of a human chromosome 6 neocentromere: A jump back to 17 million years ago

    Some primers on neocentromeres:

    Neocentromeres: New Insights into Centromere Structure, Disease Development, and Karyotype Evolution

    Chromosomal dynamics of human centromere function

    Centromere repositioning in mammals


    3b - Vitamin C synthesis

    Humans, despite being "specially created" according to creationists are replete with examples of inferior construction. We can't see as far as eagles. We can't see at night as well as cats and nocturnal creatures. A lot of these features can be catalogued quite easily. Some of them, however, are a bit more esoteric. For example, Vitamin C is incredibly important for our health. A deficiency in it leads to scurvy. However, humans, along with other primates and guinea pigs, lack the ability to synthesise Vitamin C, unlike other mammals.
    We have studied the conditions for Vitamin C synthesis in other mammals and isolated the gene responsible for it, the gulono-γ-lactone oxidase gene which converts glucose to ascorbic acid using an enzyme driven multi-stage process. In humans and other primates, this gene has been rendered functionless and is now just a pseudogene.
    Such an "unambiguous" finding is perfectly in keeping with the prediction of common descent but is entirely contradictory to the creationists suggestion that humans were "specially created."

    Primer:

    Vitamin C biosynthesis in different species

    Research:

    Cloning and chromosomal mapping of the human nonfunctional gene for L-gulono-gamma-lactone oxidase, the enzyme for L-ascorbic acid biosynthesis missing in man.

    Random nucleotide substitutions in primate nonfunctional gene for l-gulono-γ-lactone oxidase, the missing enzyme in l-ascorbic acid biosynthesis

    Immunologic evidence that the gene for L-gulono-gamma-lactone oxidase is not expressed in animals subject to scurvy

    There are many more examples of pseudogenes and other copying errors but to treat them with any level of detail would take pages and pages so instead I'll leave you with another primer:

    Pseudogene


    4. Morphology

    Morphological evidence, for those who don't already know is the comparison of creatures based on the similarity of physical features. Morphological evidence is some of the earliest evidence in favour of evolution and it remains the most visually striking, like this sequence of skulls:

    hominids2.jpg


    When viewed on a linear chronological scale, this kind of descent with modification as predicted by evolution can be seen clearly.

    However, morphological evidence is not just an intuitive measurement based on how much we think these skulls look alike. When we subject the similarities to rigorous mathematical scrutiny the phylogenic relationship predicted by evolution is confirmed.

    Inferring hominoid and early hominid phylogeny using craniodental characters: the role of fossil taxa


    What I have presented above is merely a tiny snapshot of the many overlapping evidences for common descent. The evidence for common descent is as unambiguous as it gets with multiple independent verification methods all confirming the prediction of evolution. Common design answers none of the evidence and as we have seen is directly contradicted by it.


  • #8759
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Clicking thanks on your posts oldrnwisr, isn't sufficient enough for the time you have take to write them. If you're not a lecturer on evolutionary biology, you should be. That way, you'll be speaking to a target audience that actually listens to you in an intellectually honest manner, unlike J C.

    Every single point J C has made has been refuted throughout this thread. He is simply data-mining Answers in Genesis. Look at any of his replies on any topic, and go to the website - you can be sure as hell that what he is writing, is a carbon copy of these creationist websites. He doesn't actually understand what he is typing, that's why it's so easy for you to correct every single sentence he writes.


  • #8760
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Calling what J C does "data-mining" does a great disservice to the nature of data, which are generally the result of measurement and investigation, rather than the creationist method of flinging alphabet soup at the wall and making a paper from whatever symbols stick.


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  • #8761
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Sarky wrote: »
    Also, that bit where J C said depression was a result of sin? That's pretty despicable, and you owe a very big damn apology to everyone for such an amazing display of asshattery.
    ... this is what I actually said ...
    J C wrote: »
    ... depression has many causes ... but sometimes it can be a symptom of a guilty conscience.
    (Emphasis in original) ... You're the despicable one ... lying about what I said ... so it you who owes the apology!!:(


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