Only Second Class Education in Ireland?

La Madame · 25-03-2012 08:40PM #1

Hi - I don't know if this is the correct category for my question.
I have a daughter in the second year of secondary school.
We live in Ireland over 20 years and I somehow have my doubts about the educatioal system here. There are a few things which I find a bit strange.
One is that my child has four hours of religious education per week.
Second is that we have a french exchange Student here (she is 13) who had English as a foreign language since first year primary and Spanish and Latin (!) since 2 years. My daughter had Irish from first year primary and second language from first year secondary, German or French.
Another thing which made me think was the short story of a German exchange student in Irish Secondary. She was asked to answer a few questions in a French Test. (The questions were in French)She did this as she was used to in French.. the Teacher wrote: Please answer in English.
On a European Standard can Irish students compete?
real Opinions please - no Bertie Ahern Answers

Toto Wolfcastle · 25-03-2012 09:12PM

Moved from T&L. Not sure if this is the place for it so apologies if it's not.

prettygurrly · 25-03-2012 09:18PM

unfortunately i'd agree wholeheartedly with your post OP. Students have a lot of catching up to do in secondary to get on a par with the rest of the world by leaving cert. instead of introducing languages at age 6 or earlier, Ireland seems to be stuck on the Irish language bandwagon (which I do understand and do support but only up to a point). I started Irish properly at age 11 and sat the honours leaving cert exam and got a C2...
I went to a private prep school in Ireland that started French and Science from 3rd class onwards (and didn't focus on Irish for another two years). I was always stronger in French than most in my leaving cert class and am now a professional scientist, not surprising really.

IMO if you can get your kid into a private prep school what they learn there will stay with them because I attended a "normal" school for secondary but felt I had an excellent start because of the "primary" school I attended.

and I would also say that my bf's little brother apparently isn't getting much done in school as they are preparing for his confirmation.....in May! it's weeks away and he's missing lessons for singing practice. Should be done outside of school hours or only in RE time. ridiculous that they're letting the teaching slip for a confirmation that a kid only does to get money for. i could go on and on.

MightyBouche · 25-03-2012 09:21PM

La Madame wrote: »

On a European Standard can Irish students compete?

Absolutely not.

The education system in Ireland is extremely poor. The quality of teachers here is abysmal and the "recession" here means we will see the education system suffering even further. If your daughter is happy in her school, I would probably leave her there and ensure she does very well in the leaving cert and then send her to university in the UK or elsewhere.

MightyBouche · 25-03-2012 09:24PM

prettygurrly wrote: »

ridiculous that they're letting the teaching slip for a confirmation that a kid only does to get money for. i could go on and on.

It's the parent's fault for letting it happen, nay, encouraging the "confirmation".

You couldn't pay me to send my child to a school under the patronage of the Catholic Church in Ireland.

prettygurrly · 25-03-2012 09:25PM

MightyBouche wrote: »

and then send her to university in the UK or elsewhere.

I wouldn't slate all the universities in Ireland. The quality of students that Irish Universities gets is abysmal as you rightly point out but if you are a bright student and make the effort, you will be above the bar and that will stand to you when you apply for jobs around the world. There's still a good rep for Trinity and some of the larger universities, it totally depends what sector you're in. Whereas the UK has a large number of techs made into "universities" when in fact they are no where near the standard required so if OP is going to send his daughter to the UK then be super careful where you go.

prettygurrly · 25-03-2012 09:27PM

MightyBouche wrote: »

It's the parent's fault for letting it happen, nay, encouraging the "confirmation".

that's moving into the region of whether a confirmation should happen or not and that's a whole different conversation and not the one in this thread...a parent can push a confirmation but they have no control over whether a school lets children practise for the day during school hours. if he was my kid though i would be complaining definitely.

Permabear · 25-03-2012 11:13PM

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Manach · 26-03-2012 12:10AM

Some religious based institutions that had been one of the key drivers that provided excellent standard and low cost educational services to the poorer sections of Ireland. There was both the high standards as subject matter experts in the topics taught and the instillation of a ethos of life long learning to cope with the rigours of an evolving world.

goose2005 · 26-03-2012 09:40AM

Poor language ability is common to all countries that are exclusively Anglophone.

Another thing which made me think was the short story of a German exchange student in Irish Secondary. She was asked to answer a few questions in a French Test. (The questions were in French)She did this as she was used to in French.. the Teacher wrote: Please answer in English.

Are you sure? I can remember the rule was question in English, answer in English, q in French, answer in French.

Manach wrote: »

Some religious based institutions that had been one of the key drivers that provided excellent standard and low cost educational services to the poorer sections of Ireland. There was both the high standards as subject matter experts in the topics taught and the instillation of a ethos of life long learning to cope with the rigours of an evolving world.

http://www.orwelltoday.com/duckspeak.shtml

RichardAnd · 26-03-2012 10:06AM

Generally speaking, there are two opinions that will be heard regarding the Irish education system. The first is that it is world class, the envy of of many and the peer of few. The second school of thought is that it is abysmally poor and antiquated. As with many things in life, there truth can be found betwixt the two.

In my honest opinion, the education system here is OK. Truth be told, the system does achieve a basic standard of tuition in most cases. We must be aware of the fact that education doesn't produce intelligence because there are a great many educated fools in the world and perhaps an even greater number of self taught geniuses. Most of what we known and learn as human beings will stem from heuristics so it is my opinion that formal education is an overrated and overly esteemed idea but that's a separate discussion.

What I would change about the Irish education system would be following:

1. The removal of Irish as a compulsory subject and the introduction of European language tuition.

2. The removal of religion and the introduction of modern social education that focuses on producing mature adults with mature attitudes on sex, social responsibility and ethics (all lacking in modern ireland).

3. A re-vamp of English teaching methodologies. Learning poems by rote and studying Shakespeare without understanding the meanings therein is a waste of time. The focus should be on literacy skills with time given to the study of real works of literature.

4. An overhaul of the mathematical curriculum. Again, the focus should be on reducing rote learning in favour of a proper understanding of mathematical principals.

5. Proper physical education. This is an overlooked area and the results can clearly be seen. Fitness training would do a world of good.

6. Cultural education. Not everything is about economics thus, I think it would be a fine thing if children were inducted into music or the arts at an early age.

The thing to remember is that even if steps conducive to the above being realised were started tomorrow, it would be many years before such a system was in place and many more besides before results would be seen.

Permabear · 26-03-2012 10:28AM

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RichardAnd · 26-03-2012 10:36AM

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm not so sure. A big part of school is social as well as educational. I played hurling and football in school and I enjoyed it. I think sport and physical activity are important and healthy aspects to schooling.

Fair enough — but I do think we should be teaching economics and personal money management from an early age.

That's true, a point I forgot to raise.

Permabear · 26-03-2012 10:40AM

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RichardAnd · 26-03-2012 10:47AM

Permabear wrote: »

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I don't think it is, or at least, it wasn't in my day (that makes me feel old!). When I played hurling, we would train three days a week after class had ended in the field by the school. We would miss class on match days but these didn't arise very often. Certainly, missing lessons regularly to attend sporting events is a bad idea but I think the occasional break from study does no harm.

techdiver · 26-03-2012 10:54AM

Permabear wrote: »

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I know this report is from the US, but it still is relevant.

http://www.activelivingresearch.org/files/Active_Ed.pdf

OldNotWIse · 26-03-2012 10:58AM

I agree with OP re language skills. Like a lot of Irish students, I began my Irish education at 5 years and obtained a B at ordinary level 13 years later... I started French at 13 years and Spanish at 16 years and obtained A1 and A2 at higher level... :eek:

Sudsy86 · 26-03-2012 12:26PM

we used to skip religion classes in secondary school, as much as they would like to they cannot force students to attend as it is not a examination subject...We used to attend an english class instead(but not for the interest of learning) so we could complete our homework for the next day...This particular english teacher used to help us if we had questions...

We felt and this particular english teacher felt that out time was best suited to this then attending a religious class...

So my answer to OP would be to adv the teachers that you no longer wish for your daughter to attend a religion class and would prefer if she was allowed study in the Library instead or attended extra classes in a subject she is having dfficulty wth...

dpe · 26-03-2012 02:23PM

My kids are still babies so I live in hope this whole ridiculous level of religious education is pared back by the time they go to school, but I'm not optimistic. Unfortunately the only non-religious public alternative, Educate Together, doesn't really look like my cup of tea either; bit too happy-clappy for my liking.

However, on the modern languages front, I doubt things would improve much even if religous studies and Irish were dropped tomorrow; the UK has a similar lamentable record in language education, and other Anglophone countries aren't much better, particularly for boys. Barely any of the boys at my school took a language all the way to GCSE level, and when I was at Uni of the three modern language courses available there were only two lads out of 90 students on the courses.

djpbarry · 26-03-2012 02:40PM

dpe wrote: »

Unfortunately the only non-religious public alternative, Educate Together, doesn't really look like my cup of tea either; bit too happy-clappy for my liking.

How do you mean? I'm genuinely curious.

dpe · 26-03-2012 03:28PM

djpbarry wrote: »

How do you mean? I'm genuinely curious.

I've been reading up about them a lot and and get the impression discipline can be pretty lax, and it expresses itself when ET kids go up to second level schools, which of course are usually more traditional.

Problem is of course that its all anecdotal and I'm sure it varies from one ET school to another, but I have read that kind of comment quite a few times now.

I'm going to find my kids' schooling pretty difficult no matter what tbh; I have real issues with the levels of religious indoctrination in the general school system (and I know I'm going to end up at odds with my partner who will be more concerned with the kids "fitting in" than my principles, which is of course how the whole racket works, the Irish Mammy Mafia) but as I said I'm not keen on kids running wild either.

RichardAnd · 26-03-2012 03:46PM

dpe wrote: »

I've been reading up about them a lot and and get the impression discipline can be pretty lax, and it expresses itself when ET kids go up to second level schools, which of course are usually more traditional.

Problem is of course that its all anecdotal and I'm sure it varies from one ET school to another, but I have read that kind of comment quite a few times now.

I'm going to find my kids' schooling pretty difficult no matter what tbh; I have real issues with the levels of religious indoctrination in the general school system (and I know I'm going to end up at odds with my partner who will be more concerned with the kids "fitting in" than my principles, which is of course how the whole racket works, the Irish Mammy Mafia) but as I said I'm not keen on kids running wild either.

I don't think it's a case of religious indoctrination. The teaching of religion seems to me to be more a case of cultural habit rather than the aim of spreading beliefs. I also wouldn't worry too much about fitting in. Unless you intend to send you children to a very rural school, I don't think many people would pay too much heed to your views on religion. You might miss out on the communion and confirmation days but to honest, is that such a bad thing?

dpe · 26-03-2012 03:59PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

I don't think it's a case of religious indoctrination. The teaching of religion seems to me to be more a case of cultural habit rather than the aim of spreading beliefs.

Yes but its also a massive waste of time that could be spent doing something more useful, and whether you like it or not, the whole thing still perpetuates the state sponsorship of a discredited institution (not FF, the other discredited institution).

RichardAnd wrote: »

I also wouldn't worry too much about fitting in. Unless you intend to send you children to a very rural school, I don't think many people would pay too much heed to your views on religion. You might miss out on the communion and confirmation days but to honest, is that such a bad thing?

I don't think so, but that's exactly the kind of "fitting in" the missus is on about. Its so breathtakingly hypocritcal; a fraction of parents actually believe all that rubbish but they still insist on the rite of passage for their kids. At least catholic kids in the UK don't get the ridiculous outfits (which I actually find quite creepy) and the bribery as well.

Erper · 26-03-2012 04:11PM

MightyBouche wrote: »

Absolutely not.

The education system in Ireland is extremely poor. The quality of teachers here is abysmal and the "recession" here means we will see the education system suffering even further. If your daughter is happy in her school, I would probably leave her there and ensure she does very well in the leaving cert and then send her to university in the UK or elsewhere.

agree...
but the funniest thing is that teachers were never able to deliver what's their job, but they are being paid enormous sum of money for it...

i know that i might be little of subject, but look at those private schools/colleges/universities , they all or increasing fees or putting fees that reject everyone for further education...
thats where country is getting in, paying stupid fees for students who dont care would they go to school or not...
and even worse, those private colleges are even worse, you pay them certain sum, they pretend that they deliver their tuitions even better than colleges, but in fact, their tuition is very, if not the worst ...
i have friend who's from outside of ireland, and he told me that system is his country is much more advanced than the system in here and students are getting into fields where they feel they can contribute. whit this in mind, it just shows how some eu countries are blinded by following some stupid declaration that doesnt helps students at al..
here, on the other hand, even if someone succeed to finish their school, he would definetly leave this country and use his knowledge where is acknowledged... thats where goverment is wrong and instead to use those students, they letting them go...

byhookorbycrook · 26-03-2012 04:14PM

The European languages programme in primary schools has been cancelled in the last budget.

Pride Fighter · 26-03-2012 06:09PM

Permabear wrote: »

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I think physical education should be taught. Fitness, healthy living and students given the opportunity to do sports not readily available like Soccer and GAA, fringe sports they would not normally have the chance to do. Also PE should be tied in with home economics and students taught proper nutrition and physical discipline. Just my 2 cents on it.

dpe wrote: »

I've been reading up about them a lot and and get the impression discipline can be pretty lax, and it expresses itself when ET kids go up to second level schools, which of course are usually more traditional.

Problem is of course that its all anecdotal and I'm sure it varies from one ET school to another, but I have read that kind of comment quite a few times now.

I'm going to find my kids' schooling pretty difficult no matter what tbh; I have real issues with the levels of religious indoctrination in the general school system (and I know I'm going to end up at odds with my partner who will be more concerned with the kids "fitting in" than my principles, which is of course how the whole racket works, the Irish Mammy Mafia) but as I said I'm not keen on kids running wild either.

Educate Together schools are generally better than most National Schools. They have an ethos of including the parents at every step, so the parents really ensure their child does their homework and the parents are actively involved in the running of the school. Also as ET schools are Co-Educational, the boys do better than those in boys only schools. I have read studies that state boys narrow the gap on girls when they are educated alongside girls.

Manach · 26-03-2012 06:45PM

goose2005 wrote: »

http://www.orwelltoday.com/duckspeak.shtml

Or you yourself might educate yourself to give a coherent answer instead of googling for it.

john reilly · 26-03-2012 09:37PM

what is the fixation with a foreign language, when most people speak english. what language would be appropriate? chinese. german. why?

djpbarry · 26-03-2012 11:03PM

john reilly wrote: »

what is the fixation with a foreign language, when most people speak english.

Most people in the world? I really doubt it. I'd be surprised even if most people in Europe could converse in English.

john reilly · 27-03-2012 07:20AM

djpbarry wrote: »

Most people in the world? I really doubt it. I'd be surprised even if most people in Europe could converse in English.

who mentioned the world. while it may not be most peoples first language it is certainly a major international language

La Madame · 27-03-2012 08:06AM

john reilly wrote: »

what is the fixation with a foreign language, when most people speak english. why?

it might make a person less parochial.

Only Second Class Education in Ireland?

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