Only Second Class Education in Ireland?

La Madame

Hi - I don't know if this is the correct category for my question.
I have a daughter in the second year of secondary school.
We live in Ireland over 20 years and I somehow have my doubts about the educatioal system here. There are a few things which I find a bit strange.
One is that my child has four hours of religious education per week.
Second is that we have a french exchange Student here (she is 13) who had English as a foreign language since first year primary and Spanish and Latin (!) since 2 years. My daughter had Irish from first year primary and second language from first year secondary, German or French.
Another thing which made me think was the short story of a German exchange student in Irish Secondary. She was asked to answer a few questions in a French Test. (The questions were in French)She did this as she was used to in French.. the Teacher wrote: Please answer in English.
On a European Standard can Irish students compete?
real Opinions please - no Bertie Ahern Answers

Toto Wolfcastle

Moved from T&L. Not sure if this is the place for it so apologies if it's not.

prettygurrly

unfortunately i'd agree wholeheartedly with your post OP. Students have a lot of catching up to do in secondary to get on a par with the rest of the world by leaving cert. instead of introducing languages at age 6 or earlier, Ireland seems to be stuck on the Irish language bandwagon (which I do understand and do support but only up to a point). I started Irish properly at age 11 and sat the honours leaving cert exam and got a C2...
I went to a private prep school in Ireland that started French and Science from 3rd class onwards (and didn't focus on Irish for another two years). I was always stronger in French than most in my leaving cert class and am now a professional scientist, not surprising really.

IMO if you can get your kid into a private prep school what they learn there will stay with them because I attended a "normal" school for secondary but felt I had an excellent start because of the "primary" school I attended.

and I would also say that my bf's little brother apparently isn't getting much done in school as they are preparing for his confirmation.....in May! it's weeks away and he's missing lessons for singing practice. Should be done outside of school hours or only in RE time. ridiculous that they're letting the teaching slip for a confirmation that a kid only does to get money for. i could go on and on.

MightyBouche

La Madame wrote: »

On a European Standard can Irish students compete?

Absolutely not.

The education system in Ireland is extremely poor. The quality of teachers here is abysmal and the "recession" here means we will see the education system suffering even further. If your daughter is happy in her school, I would probably leave her there and ensure she does very well in the leaving cert and then send her to university in the UK or elsewhere.

MightyBouche

prettygurrly wrote: »

ridiculous that they're letting the teaching slip for a confirmation that a kid only does to get money for. i could go on and on.

It's the parent's fault for letting it happen, nay, encouraging the "confirmation".

You couldn't pay me to send my child to a school under the patronage of the Catholic Church in Ireland.

prettygurrly

MightyBouche wrote: »

and then send her to university in the UK or elsewhere.

I wouldn't slate all the universities in Ireland. The quality of students that Irish Universities gets is abysmal as you rightly point out but if you are a bright student and make the effort, you will be above the bar and that will stand to you when you apply for jobs around the world. There's still a good rep for Trinity and some of the larger universities, it totally depends what sector you're in. Whereas the UK has a large number of techs made into "universities" when in fact they are no where near the standard required so if OP is going to send his daughter to the UK then be super careful where you go.

prettygurrly

MightyBouche wrote: »

It's the parent's fault for letting it happen, nay, encouraging the "confirmation".

that's moving into the region of whether a confirmation should happen or not and that's a whole different conversation and not the one in this thread...a parent can push a confirmation but they have no control over whether a school lets children practise for the day during school hours. if he was my kid though i would be complaining definitely.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Manach

Some religious based institutions that had been one of the key drivers that provided excellent standard and low cost educational services to the poorer sections of Ireland. There was both the high standards as subject matter experts in the topics taught and the instillation of a ethos of life long learning to cope with the rigours of an evolving world.

goose2005

Poor language ability is common to all countries that are exclusively Anglophone.

Another thing which made me think was the short story of a German exchange student in Irish Secondary. She was asked to answer a few questions in a French Test. (The questions were in French)She did this as she was used to in French.. the Teacher wrote: Please answer in English.

Are you sure? I can remember the rule was question in English, answer in English, q in French, answer in French.

Manach wrote: »

Some religious based institutions that had been one of the key drivers that provided excellent standard and low cost educational services to the poorer sections of Ireland. There was both the high standards as subject matter experts in the topics taught and the instillation of a ethos of life long learning to cope with the rigours of an evolving world.

http://www.orwelltoday.com/duckspeak.shtml

RichardAnd

Generally speaking, there are two opinions that will be heard regarding the Irish education system. The first is that it is world class, the envy of of many and the peer of few. The second school of thought is that it is abysmally poor and antiquated. As with many things in life, there truth can be found betwixt the two.

In my honest opinion, the education system here is OK. Truth be told, the system does achieve a basic standard of tuition in most cases. We must be aware of the fact that education doesn't produce intelligence because there are a great many educated fools in the world and perhaps an even greater number of self taught geniuses. Most of what we known and learn as human beings will stem from heuristics so it is my opinion that formal education is an overrated and overly esteemed idea but that's a separate discussion.

What I would change about the Irish education system would be following:

1. The removal of Irish as a compulsory subject and the introduction of European language tuition.

2. The removal of religion and the introduction of modern social education that focuses on producing mature adults with mature attitudes on sex, social responsibility and ethics (all lacking in modern ireland).

3. A re-vamp of English teaching methodologies. Learning poems by rote and studying Shakespeare without understanding the meanings therein is a waste of time. The focus should be on literacy skills with time given to the study of real works of literature.

4. An overhaul of the mathematical curriculum. Again, the focus should be on reducing rote learning in favour of a proper understanding of mathematical principals.

5. Proper physical education. This is an overlooked area and the results can clearly be seen. Fitness training would do a world of good.

6. Cultural education. Not everything is about economics thus, I think it would be a fine thing if children were inducted into music or the arts at an early age.


The thing to remember is that even if steps conducive to the above being realised were started tomorrow, it would be many years before such a system was in place and many more besides before results would be seen.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

RichardAnd

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm not so sure. A big part of school is social as well as educational. I played hurling and football in school and I enjoyed it. I think sport and physical activity are important and healthy aspects to schooling.

Fair enough — but I do think we should be teaching economics and personal money management from an early age.

That's true, a point I forgot to raise.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

RichardAnd

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't think it is, or at least, it wasn't in my day (that makes me feel old!). When I played hurling, we would train three days a week after class had ended in the field by the school. We would miss class on match days but these didn't arise very often. Certainly, missing lessons regularly to attend sporting events is a bad idea but I think the occasional break from study does no harm.

techdiver

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I know this report is from the US, but it still is relevant.

http://www.activelivingresearch.org/files/Active_Ed.pdf

OldNotWIse

I agree with OP re language skills. Like a lot of Irish students, I began my Irish education at 5 years and obtained a B at ordinary level 13 years later... I started French at 13 years and Spanish at 16 years and obtained A1 and A2 at higher level... :eek:

Sudsy86

we used to skip religion classes in secondary school, as much as they would like to they cannot force students to attend as it is not a examination subject...We used to attend an english class instead(but not for the interest of learning) so we could complete our homework for the next day...This particular english teacher used to help us if we had questions...

We felt and this particular english teacher felt that out time was best suited to this then attending a religious class...

So my answer to OP would be to adv the teachers that you no longer wish for your daughter to attend a religion class and would prefer if she was allowed study in the Library instead or attended extra classes in a subject she is having dfficulty wth...

dpe

My kids are still babies so I live in hope this whole ridiculous level of religious education is pared back by the time they go to school, but I'm not optimistic. Unfortunately the only non-religious public alternative, Educate Together, doesn't really look like my cup of tea either; bit too happy-clappy for my liking.

However, on the modern languages front, I doubt things would improve much even if religous studies and Irish were dropped tomorrow; the UK has a similar lamentable record in language education, and other Anglophone countries aren't much better, particularly for boys. Barely any of the boys at my school took a language all the way to GCSE level, and when I was at Uni of the three modern language courses available there were only two lads out of 90 students on the courses.

djpbarry

dpe wrote: »

Unfortunately the only non-religious public alternative, Educate Together, doesn't really look like my cup of tea either; bit too happy-clappy for my liking.

How do you mean? I'm genuinely curious.

dpe

djpbarry wrote: »

How do you mean? I'm genuinely curious.

I've been reading up about them a lot and and get the impression discipline can be pretty lax, and it expresses itself when ET kids go up to second level schools, which of course are usually more traditional.

Problem is of course that its all anecdotal and I'm sure it varies from one ET school to another, but I have read that kind of comment quite a few times now.

I'm going to find my kids' schooling pretty difficult no matter what tbh; I have real issues with the levels of religious indoctrination in the general school system (and I know I'm going to end up at odds with my partner who will be more concerned with the kids "fitting in" than my principles, which is of course how the whole racket works, the Irish Mammy Mafia) but as I said I'm not keen on kids running wild either.

RichardAnd

dpe wrote: »

I've been reading up about them a lot and and get the impression discipline can be pretty lax, and it expresses itself when ET kids go up to second level schools, which of course are usually more traditional.

Problem is of course that its all anecdotal and I'm sure it varies from one ET school to another, but I have read that kind of comment quite a few times now.

I'm going to find my kids' schooling pretty difficult no matter what tbh; I have real issues with the levels of religious indoctrination in the general school system (and I know I'm going to end up at odds with my partner who will be more concerned with the kids "fitting in" than my principles, which is of course how the whole racket works, the Irish Mammy Mafia) but as I said I'm not keen on kids running wild either.

I don't think it's a case of religious indoctrination. The teaching of religion seems to me to be more a case of cultural habit rather than the aim of spreading beliefs. I also wouldn't worry too much about fitting in. Unless you intend to send you children to a very rural school, I don't think many people would pay too much heed to your views on religion. You might miss out on the communion and confirmation days but to honest, is that such a bad thing?

dpe

RichardAnd wrote: »

I don't think it's a case of religious indoctrination. The teaching of religion seems to me to be more a case of cultural habit rather than the aim of spreading beliefs.

Yes but its also a massive waste of time that could be spent doing something more useful, and whether you like it or not, the whole thing still perpetuates the state sponsorship of a discredited institution (not FF, the other discredited institution).

RichardAnd wrote: »

I also wouldn't worry too much about fitting in. Unless you intend to send you children to a very rural school, I don't think many people would pay too much heed to your views on religion. You might miss out on the communion and confirmation days but to honest, is that such a bad thing?

I don't think so, but that's exactly the kind of "fitting in" the missus is on about. Its so breathtakingly hypocritcal; a fraction of parents actually believe all that rubbish but they still insist on the rite of passage for their kids. At least catholic kids in the UK don't get the ridiculous outfits (which I actually find quite creepy) and the bribery as well.

Erper

MightyBouche wrote: »

Absolutely not.

The education system in Ireland is extremely poor. The quality of teachers here is abysmal and the "recession" here means we will see the education system suffering even further. If your daughter is happy in her school, I would probably leave her there and ensure she does very well in the leaving cert and then send her to university in the UK or elsewhere.

agree...
but the funniest thing is that teachers were never able to deliver what's their job, but they are being paid enormous sum of money for it...

i know that i might be little of subject, but look at those private schools/colleges/universities , they all or increasing fees or putting fees that reject everyone for further education...
thats where country is getting in, paying stupid fees for students who dont care would they go to school or not...
and even worse, those private colleges are even worse, you pay them certain sum, they pretend that they deliver their tuitions even better than colleges, but in fact, their tuition is very, if not the worst ...
i have friend who's from outside of ireland, and he told me that system is his country is much more advanced than the system in here and students are getting into fields where they feel they can contribute. whit this in mind, it just shows how some eu countries are blinded by following some stupid declaration that doesnt helps students at al..
here, on the other hand, even if someone succeed to finish their school, he would definetly leave this country and use his knowledge where is acknowledged... thats where goverment is wrong and instead to use those students, they letting them go...

byhookorbycrook

The European languages programme in primary schools has been cancelled in the last budget.

Pride Fighter

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I think physical education should be taught. Fitness, healthy living and students given the opportunity to do sports not readily available like Soccer and GAA, fringe sports they would not normally have the chance to do. Also PE should be tied in with home economics and students taught proper nutrition and physical discipline. Just my 2 cents on it.

dpe wrote: »

I've been reading up about them a lot and and get the impression discipline can be pretty lax, and it expresses itself when ET kids go up to second level schools, which of course are usually more traditional.

Problem is of course that its all anecdotal and I'm sure it varies from one ET school to another, but I have read that kind of comment quite a few times now.

I'm going to find my kids' schooling pretty difficult no matter what tbh; I have real issues with the levels of religious indoctrination in the general school system (and I know I'm going to end up at odds with my partner who will be more concerned with the kids "fitting in" than my principles, which is of course how the whole racket works, the Irish Mammy Mafia) but as I said I'm not keen on kids running wild either.

Educate Together schools are generally better than most National Schools. They have an ethos of including the parents at every step, so the parents really ensure their child does their homework and the parents are actively involved in the running of the school. Also as ET schools are Co-Educational, the boys do better than those in boys only schools. I have read studies that state boys narrow the gap on girls when they are educated alongside girls.

Manach

goose2005 wrote: »

http://www.orwelltoday.com/duckspeak.shtml

Or you yourself might educate yourself to give a coherent answer instead of googling for it.

john reilly

what is the fixation with a foreign language, when most people speak english. what language would be appropriate? chinese. german. why?

djpbarry

john reilly wrote: »

what is the fixation with a foreign language, when most people speak english.

Most people in the world? I really doubt it. I'd be surprised even if most people in Europe could converse in English.

john reilly

djpbarry wrote: »

Most people in the world? I really doubt it. I'd be surprised even if most people in Europe could converse in English.

who mentioned the world. while it may not be most peoples first language it is certainly a major international language

La Madame

john reilly wrote: »

what is the fixation with a foreign language, when most people speak english. why?

it might make a person less parochial.

RichardAnd

dpe wrote: »

Yes but its also a massive waste of time that could be spent doing something more useful, and whether you like it or not, the whole thing still perpetuates the state sponsorship of a discredited institution (not FF, the other discredited institution).

We have plenty of dodgy institutions here in Ireland, sadly. My view of the church is warmer than that which most might hold as I've worked for them in the past and I have a priest for an uncle. I do agree however, that religion shouldn't be treated as something children have to learn. That being said, despite my stance as a non-catholic, I actually found religion to be quite interesting. There are good stories in the Bible, if nothing else.

I don't think so, but that's exactly the kind of "fitting in" the missus is on about. Its so breathtakingly hypocritcal; a fraction of parents actually believe all that rubbish but they still insist on the rite of passage for their kids. At least catholic kids in the UK don't get the ridiculous outfits (which I actually find quite creepy) and the bribery as well.

A good point. If your child is left out whilst the rest of his/her class is preparing for communion or confirmation, they will be marked out from their peers which isn't always a good experience for a child. In Dublin, this might not be so bad as there would likely be a few children from non-catholic backgrounds but in rural schools, this probably wouldn't be so. The word "pagan" comes to mind for some reason . . .

Communion and confirmation are part and parcel of raising a child in Ireland. It's regarded as an auspicious occasion for the child and its parents and something of a rite of passage. I think many people have their children go through the sacraments simply out of tradition, the religious element is probably quite removed from their minds. It's like someone wanting to be married in a church for the setting even though they have no understanding nor the will to learn of the religious side of the occasion. I don't generally pay too much heed to what others do with their lives but it's my opinion that such behavior is disrespectful towards Catholics.

happyman81

Manach wrote: »

Some religious based institutions that had been one of the key drivers that provided excellent standard and low cost educational services to the poorer sections of Ireland. There was both the high standards as subject matter experts in the topics taught and the instillation of a ethos of life long learning to cope with the rigours of an evolving world.

At a guess, you are religous. Only blind faith could inspire such a nonsensical post.

RichardAnd

happyman81 wrote: »

At a guess, you are religous. Only blind faith could inspire such a nonsensical post.

On the contrary, he raises an excellent point. The Christian Brothers taught reading and writing to poorer sections of Irish society throughout the years. Without this aid, the said people would have had no access whatsoever to education and would have remained illiterate.

This is a lesson in itself. For all the ill deeds planted at the foot of the catholic church, it can not be said that no good every came from them. As with everything in life, there are two sides to each story.

happyman81

RichardAnd wrote: »

happyman81 wrote: »

At a guess, you are religous. Only blind faith could inspire such a nonsensical post.

On the contrary, he raises an excellent point. The Christian Brothers taught reading and writing to poorer sections of Irish society throughout the years. Without this aid, the said people would have had no access whatsoever to education and would have remained illiterate.

This is a lesson in itself. For all the ill deeds planted at the foot of the catholic church, it can not be said that no good every came from them. As with everything in life, there are two sides to each story.

Right, but is this thread about the modern education system, or Angela's Ashes? Because I could swear it was the former. Unless the OP is posting in a time warp.

OldNotWIse

john reilly wrote: »

who mentioned the world. while it may not be most peoples first language it is certainly a major international language

But not the only one.

djpbarry

john reilly wrote: »

who mentioned the world. while it may not be most peoples first language it is certainly a major international language

I don’t think anyone is disputing that. However, you stated quite categorically that most people speak English – I presumed you were referring to most people in the world (I believe the number of people on the planet who have English as a first or second language is around about one billion). What geographical region were you referring to?

john reilly

djpbarry wrote: »

I don’t think anyone is disputing that. However, you stated quite categorically that most people speak English – I presumed you were referring to most people in the world (I believe the number of people on the planet who have English as a first or second language is around about one billion). What geographical region were you referring to?

amazingly enough the regions closest to us spring to mind the u.k and then europe. if irish wasnt cumpulsory then what other language should take its place. would different schools be able to take their pick from the hundreds of languages spoken worldwide. that would make testing a bit difficult

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

seamus

As stated above, poor language ability is fairly common across Anglophone countries.

This is probably largely due to the fact that these countries place less importance on learning a foreign language simply because English is so widely used, but also due to the significant grammatical differences between English and the other major European languages. The most often cited one being the location of adjectives.

This creates a learning barrier when a child has only been exposed to English that makes it harder to grasp a European language. By contrast those with European language skills find it easier to grasp other European languages. Irish children who are fluent in Irish also tend to pick up additional languages quicker than children who only know Irish from school.

I don't see any reason why Irish should be abandoned in favour of another language. In reality all this would serve is to create a generation of kids with poor French (for example), rather than a generation with poor Irish like we have now. Improve the teaching of Irish, and language skills in general will improve.

I think exposure is probably the main issue. In anglophone countries, there is virtually zero exposure to other languages in daily life. In other countries, particularly western countries, the significant influence of the UK and US means that the english language continually interjects in media and advertising such that some english can be picked up without even trying.

By contrast, you never see ads in any other language except English in this country. On a very rare occasion there might be something in Irish, and some shops have Polish signs, but they wouldn't be something which everyone would see every day.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

djpbarry

john reilly wrote: »

amazingly enough the regions closest to us spring to mind the u.k and then europe.

This may come as a shock, but there are quite a lot of people in Europe who are not comfortable conversing in English:

http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_243_en.pdf

john reilly wrote: »

if irish wasnt cumpulsory then what other language should take its place.

French, German or Spanish would probably make the most sense (although I don't think anyone is arguing that Irish should be replaced), but you're looking at this from a very narrow perspective - someone who is multilingual finds it much easier to pick up new languages relative to a monolingual person. That's before we even consider the fact that a lot of European languages are quite similar. For example, if you speak Spanish, picking up Italian is going to be relatively straightforward. If you speak German, then Dutch, Flemish, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish are all going to seem pretty intuitive.

As Seamus alludes to above, English-speakers find it difficult to pick up new languages if they haven’t been exposed form an early age, possibly because English isn’t really naturally related to other European languages – it’s more of a bastardisation of a variety of languages, a reflection of the waves of invaders that Britain received over the years.

Kinski

La Madame wrote: »

One is that my child has four hours of religious education per week.

There's a lengthy report on RTE's website today on this issue. The Catholic Church apparently insisted that the amount of time devoted to religious instruction (and the amount of time given over to sacramental preparations) should be the same in multidenominational schools as in Church-controlled primary schools, despite the reservations of some parents and teachers.

In practice, this has meant that multidenominational schools have had to split children into seperate groups at certain times of year.

Some Muslim parents (countering all those stereotypes depicting average Muslims as a bunch of inflexible dogmatists intent on imposing their beliefs on everyone) expressed "surprise that 30 minutes every day has to be devoted to religion. They say they would prefer this 30 minutes to be devoted to some other subject and say religious education could be left to the family."

That view seems most reasonable to me, and I find it surprising to see the authorities still bending over backwards to facilitate the transmission of Catholic teachings during school-hours (not to mention all the time lost to Holy Communion and Confirmation preparations). 30 minutes of religion every day? Even God took one day of the week off.

Duggys Housemate

This thread is a bit depressing. As a graduate of 1992, I think the Leaving Cert was on par with the rest of the world, and better then the US and Englan for sure. I didn't care about the religious stuff, in school that was effectively a civics class, it wasn't taught by religious teachers, as we had none. I liked it.

English wasn't "rote", it was compare and contrast, and essays.
History wasn't rote, it was compare and contrast, or you were asked whether a war was "inevitable". You had to know the dates, but essay answers were required.
I did PE, and it was (though unexamined) taken seriously.
Maths was tough, and harder than my first year of mathematics in college in a mathematical degree.
Applied maths was easier.
Irish was like English, essays etc.
French was more conversational, but not easy.
Physics was a bit rote, but that was the experiments. ( Describe how you would do this experiment). By necessity I expect.
Economics was fairly tough too.

I did the hard stuff, apparently. There were "rote subjects" but nobody has mentioned them here, biology is - by necessity also - rote.

So what happened? Why did we replace this with nonsense, if this is what happened.

Duggys Housemate

Kinski wrote: »

There's a lengthy report on RTE's website today on this issue. The Catholic Church apparently insisted that the amount of time devoted to religious instruction (and the amount of time given over to sacramental preparations) should be the same in multidenominational schools as in Church-controlled primary schools, despite the reservations of some parents and teachers.

In practice, this has meant that multidenominational schools have had to split children into seperate groups at certain times of year.

Some Muslim parents (countering all those stereotypes depicting average Muslims as a bunch of inflexible dogmatists intent on imposing their beliefs on everyone) expressed "surprise that 30 minutes every day has to be devoted to religion. They say they would prefer this 30 minutes to be devoted to some other subject and say religious education could be left to the family."

That view seems most reasonable to me, and I find it surprising to see the authorities still bending over backwards to facilitate the transmission of Catholic teachings during school-hours (not to mention all the time lost to Holy Communion and Confirmation preparations). 30 minutes of religion every day? Even God took one day of the week off.

Yeah, whatever. Indeed that time should be non-religious, although I think it should be free time ( I had very little) but it is just a new Atheist bug bear. Fixing that "issue" would do nothing to stop the decline in standards.

And it is clearly true that Catholic schools produce better students than techs in Ireland, and do so in England too - better than comprehensives.

Its 30 minutes a day on average.

Kinski

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Its 30 minutes a day on average.

Still means 2.5hrs over the week, no matter how schools divide it up.

This thread is a bit depressing. As a graduate of 1992, I think the Leaving Cert was on par with the rest of the world, and better then the US and Englan for sure. I didn't care about the religious stuff, in school that was effectively a civics class, it wasn't taught by religious teachers, as we had none. I liked it.

At second level, we had seperate civics and religion classes, but I was only ever taught civics in first year - after that, it became Double Maths, but was listed as Civics on the timetable to satisfy departmental requirements.

I did PE, and it was (though unexamined) taken seriously.

This was always a bugbear of mine. My secondary school didn't even employ one qualified PE teacher until I was in third year. Up until then, I had to be content with chasing shadows in games of gaelic and soccer, sports which no-one ever attempted to even teach me how to play (a fellow student showed me how to kick a football before any PE teacher did.) By my final year in school, I had simply stopped showing up for the class.

Physical fitness is hugely important, and I think it should be taught through a properly structured, well-planned curriculum, one which also manages to remain responsive to the individual needs of pupils. All this "Get out there lads and lasses and play football!" stuff is a waste of time.

Duggys Housemate

Kinski wrote: »

S
This was always a bugbear of mine. My secondary school didn't even employ one qualified PE teacher until I was in third year. Up until then, I had to be content with chasing shadows in games of gaelic and soccer, sports which no-one ever attempted to even teach me how to play (a fellow student showed me how to kick a football before any PE teacher did.) By my final year in school, I had simply stopped showing up for the class.

Wow. We did have a proper PE teacher, which mean pilates in the winter, rugby, gaelic, and football in spring and autumn. But half the class was proper PE, warmups and running regardless. WE also did some athletics and circuit training outdoors once the football related nonsense was over. As someone who has two left feet, but is fit, that was my preferred PE classes.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

djpbarry

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

So what happened? Why did we replace this with nonsense, if this is what happened.

It’s 12 years since I did the leaving cert and, based on what you’ve described, I don’t think things had changed radically in 8 years. I suspect that a big part of the problem is that kids were more driven in the past. I remember there were only about 5 people in my honours maths class in 6th year (and it was a similar story for physics and chemistry) and I went to a decent sized-school – most of my peers had decided very early on that they couldn’t do higher level. So, they didn’t bother. They just wanted to take the path of least resistance to get out of school, get some sort of third level qualification (didn’t matter what in many cases) and start making easy money. I also acted as a maths tutor for leaving cert students when I was in university, and I encountered the same kind of attitude very frequently – “Why do I need to do honours maths? I don’t need it to get into <insert random course here.>”

EDIT: Permabear's post above appears to support all this.

So, I don’t think the problem is that teaching standards have dropped so much as students were aiming for the “easy” subjects to maximise their CAO score. I expect that this trend will reverse in the coming years to some extent as the likes of science, maths and engineering courses become more popular again.

All that said, there is obviously plenty of scope for modernisation in Irish education.

djpbarry

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

We did have a proper PE teacher, which mean pilates in the winter...

I think it's fair to say that experience of school-time pilates in early 1990's Ireland puts you in the extreme minority.

Duggys Housemate

Well, maybe it was just standard Gymnastics. But it was this kind of stuff for sure.

http://pilates.about.com/od/pilatesmat/tp/BeginnerExercises.htm

we also jumped those horse things. Potentially mortifying.