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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #7142
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    black francis wrote: »


    Definition of 'Progressive Tax'
    A tax that takes a larger percentage from the income of high-income earners than it does from low-income individuals.



    So you're saying a flat-rate property tax is progressive?

    I would have have thought a 'progressive' income tax would be more likely to target high-income earners :rolleyes:

    Would you not have thought so?

    Guess not.


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    #7143
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Because it isn't to fund local authorities - it's to repay German Banks' gambling debts; and as the interest on that debt keeps rising and the economy remains in recession so the need for more debt repayments goes up.

    No, it's actually an attempt to close the gap between what we're spending and what we're earning.
    You can mention German banks as much as you like, the reality is we need to adjust our internal budget.
    Tax increases, reductions in public spending and hopefully growth will achieve this.
    You can howl at the moon about the unfairness of it all.
    The rest of us shall attempt to pick up the pieces.


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    #7144
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    ...it's to repay German Banks' gambling debts...

    Just out of curiosity, where is your actual legitimate proof of this?

    I see this bandied about a lot by the No-Campaigners and the SWP/Shinners but there seems to be nothing trustworthy out there about it.

    Just the usual Irish xenophobia because we can' man up and face the problems we created for ourselves?


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    #7145
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    So you're saying a flat-rate property tax is progressive?

    I would have have thought a 'progressive' income tax would be more likely to target high-income earners :rolleyes:

    Would you not have thought so?

    Guess not.


    No, I'm saying the opposite.

    Try to keep up.

    L0ui5e wrote: »
    Can I just make a point to the nay sayers here who are telling us all to cop on it's just €100, if you can't afford that blah blah..

    It has been stressed by politicians of all divides that this is a PROGRESSIVE tax and would you be happy to pay MULTIPLES of this in the years forward?


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    #7146
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    alastair wrote: »
    3.—(1) In the year 2012 and in each subsequent year thereafter, each person who, on the liability date of the year concerned, is the owner of a residential property shall, subject to this Act, pay to the relevant local authority the sum (in this Act referred to as a “house- 25 hold charge”) specified in accordance with this section.

    http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2011/7411/b7411s.pdf

    Thanks for the link.
    The Bill has no direct financial implications for the Exchequer as
    the revenue from the €100 household charge will be lodged to the
    Local Government Fund out of which funding will be provided by
    the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local
    Government to local authorities in the form of General-Purpose
    Grants.

    The government will be giving out the grants, not the local council.

    sonic85 wrote: »
    according to the irish times article i posted earlier it will go on house value:

    Under the commission’s proposed scheme a charge of €188 would be paid on houses valued at up to €150,000; €563 on houses between €150,000 and €300,000; €938 on houses up to €450,000; €1,313 on houses valued at up to €600,000; €1,699 on houses up to €750,000; €2,188 on houses valued at up to €1 million; €3,125 on houses up to €1.5 million and 0.25 per cent of the valuation on houses over that.

    who values the houses I wonder?


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    #7147
    sonic85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,214 ✭✭✭sonic85


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, where is your actual legitimate proof of this?

    I see this bandied about a lot by the No-Campaigners and the SWP/Shinners but there seems to be nothing trustworthy out there about it.

    Just the usual Irish xenophobia because we can' man up and face the problems we created for ourselves?

    this shit again. theres no we here. theres loads of people that played no part in the rubbish that went on in the boom. you cant tar everyone with the one brush


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    #7148
    Rowanvella199
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭Rowanvella199


    Im not going to pay it! It will be 100 no and in five years time we could be talking 1000! Also have you ever heard the term death by a thousand paper cuts


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    #7149
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    hondasam wrote: »
    The government will be giving out the grants, not the local authorities

    That's the way local authorities are funded here - central government provides them with annual budgets (aside from what they get from commercial rates etc). Nevertheless - 100% of the household charge goes, by law, to the local authorities.


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    #7150
    jonnygee
    Registered Users Posts: 589 ✭✭✭jonnygee


    black francis wrote: »
    No, it's actually an attempt to close the gap between what we're spending and what we're earning.
    You can mention German banks as much as you like, the reality is we need to adjust our internal budget.
    Tax increases, reductions in public spending and hopefully growth will achieve this.
    You can howl at the moon about the unfairness of it all.
    The rest of us shall attempt to pick up the pieces.

    So then is this household charge being introduced to fund local services this year, but next year the household charge will be abolished and another new tax called the property tax will be introduced to bridge the government defecit, so how will local services be funded next year. Im confused about this.


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    #7151
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Rowanvella199 wrote: »
    Im not going to pay it! It will be 100 no and in five years time we could be talking 1000! Also have you ever heard the term death by a thousand paper cuts

    If you've a gaff worth over €300k it looks like you could be paying that in a year or two alright. But did you think we could keep borrowing for year after year?


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    #7152
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    alastair wrote: »
    That's the way local authorities are funded here - central government provides them with annual budgets (aside from what they get from commercial rates etc). Nevertheless - 100% of the household charge goes, by law, to the local authorities.

    I know what you are saying but I honestly don't believe that's how it's going to work. I would like to see what Galway county collects and what is spent in Galway.


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    #7153
    sonic85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,214 ✭✭✭sonic85


    hondasam wrote: »
    who values the houses I wonder?

    i was wondering this myself. also there was this little nugget


    Fine Gael deputy for Donegal North East Joe McHugh said this morning the new system would take into account people’s ability to pay. "There are people living in houses that are of high value but simply cannot pay. That needs to be taken into account. We need to have a fair and equitable system that is not just based on valuations."

    so basically you could have people living in mansions that are supposed to be broke and will still only end up paying the same as somebody in an average bungalow. fair system my arse - pile of bollocks is what it is


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    #7154
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, where is your actual legitimate proof of this?

    I see this bandied about a lot by the No-Campaigners and the SWP/Shinners but there seems to be nothing trustworthy out there about it.

    Just the usual Irish xenophobia because we can' man up and face the problems we created for ourselves?

    You have proof of the contrary?


    There is a link about to be produced?


    Pardon us for being skeptical.


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    #7155
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    jonnygee wrote: »
    So then is this household charge being introduced to fund local services this year, but next year the household charge will be abolished and another new tax called the property tax will be introduced to bridge the government defecit, so how will local services be funded next year. Im confused about this.

    From the property tax. Same deal just more money and tiered/progressive.


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    #7156
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    hondasam wrote: »
    I know what you are saying but I honestly don't believe that's how it's going to work. I would like to see what Galway county collects and what is spent in Galway.

    One thing will be certain - what's collected in Galway will be a fraction of what it costs to run Galway.


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    #7157
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    alastair wrote: »
    One thing will be certain - what's collected in Galway will be a fraction of what it costs to run Galway.

    That's not the issue is it.


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    #7158
    tfitzgerald
    Registered Users Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭tfitzgerald


    When the TD 's drop their expense accounts and their wages to what the country can afford . Then I will consider paying but not until then


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    #7159
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    sonic85 wrote: »
    i was wondering this myself. also there was this little nugget


    Fine Gael deputy for Donegal North East Joe McHugh said this morning the new system would take into account people’s ability to pay. "There are people living in houses that are of high value but simply cannot pay. That needs to be taken into account. We need to have a fair and equitable system that is not just based on valuations."

    so basically you could have people living in mansions that are supposed to be broke and will still only end up paying the same as somebody in an average bungalow. fair system my arse - pile of bollocks is what it is

    That's how it works in most places. My parents live in what's become a very affluent area, and on a decent plot of land. They have lived there always. Their income is the state pension. They certainly would struggle to pay the suggested property tax band their house would warrant. Ability to pay needs to be taken into account.


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    #7160
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    hondasam wrote: »
    That's not the issue is it.

    Well - as you've been shown, the household charge goes nowhere but local authorities, and the amount generated is only a small portion of the actual running costs of the local aithorities, so what room for getting one over on the Galway charge payers do you envisage?


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    #7161
    sonic85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,214 ✭✭✭sonic85


    alastair wrote: »
    That's how it works in most places. My parents live in what's become a very affluent area, and on a decent plot of land. They have lived there always. Their income is the state pension. They certainly would struggle to pay the suggested property tax band their house would warrant. Ability to pay needs to be taken into account.

    well then fairness and equality goes right out the window then doesnt it? i read a thread here somewhere that mentioned the american system whereby if a person cant afford to pay the relevent taxes on a property they have to sell said property.

    asking someone who owns an average size bungalow to pay the same as someone who owns a large two storey house is not on


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    #7162
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    alastair wrote: »
    Well - as you've been shown, the household charge goes nowhere but local authorities, and the amount generated is only a small portion of the actual running costs of the local aithorities, so what room for getting one over on the Galway charge payers do you envisage?

    It's not just Galway it's every county. We cannot be sure the money will be spent in the way we would like it to be, it's not as if the government are not capable of telling us lies now is it.
    Anyway it's an unfair tax on workers, everyone should pay it regardless of their circumstances or no one pay it.
    You can be sure our houses will go up in value next year when the hit us with new charges.


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    #7163
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    sonic85 wrote: »
    well then fairness and equality goes right out the window then doesnt it? i read a thread here somewhere that mentioned the american system whereby if a person cant afford to pay the relevent taxes on a property they have to sell said property.

    asking someone who owns an average size bungalow to pay the same as someone who owns a large two storey house is not on

    why should the size of your house matter? some people who live in small houses might use more water than people in big houses etc. House size should not matter.


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    #7164
    jonnygee
    Registered Users Posts: 589 ✭✭✭jonnygee


    So where has the money that all the local authorities were being allocated from central government prior to this new charge being imposed gone?


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    #7165
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    hondasam wrote: »
    It's not just Galway it's every county. We cannot be sure the money will be spent in the way we would like it to be, it's not as if the government are not capable of telling us lies now is it.

    Local authority spending decisions are made at local authority level - central govt just decides what budget they get.

    The law says quite clearly that this hpusehold charge money goes only to local authorities - don't know what room for lies exists in that scenario.


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    #7166
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    jonnygee wrote: »
    So where has the money that all the local authorities were being allocated from central government prior to this new charge being imposed gone?

    One example, last year Galway Co, Council awarded 2 pen pushers 20K in bonuses for the good work done by the litter wardens. The wardens who actually did the work got protective notice at the same time because the council could not guarentee their wages could be paid due to lack of funds.


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    #7167
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    jonnygee wrote: »
    So where has the money that all the local authorities were being allocated from central government prior to this new charge being imposed gone?

    You understand that there's a general shortfall in tax revenues across the board? Local authorities have been reliant on foreign borrowings since the arse fell out of the economy - same as the rest of public spending. This is part of the attempt to become self- sufficient again.


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    #7168
    sonic85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,214 ✭✭✭sonic85


    hondasam wrote: »
    why should the size of your house matter? some people who live in small houses might use more water than people in big houses etc. House size should not matter.

    of course the size of your house matters.

    who said anything about water? thats a seperate issue. you have a big house you pay more thats the way it works. otherwise the whole thing is a waste of time. like i said its unfair to suggest people living in small bungalows have to pay the same as someone in a huge two storey or dormer.

    my gran for example lives in a small cottage. do you think then that she should pay the same rate as someone who went off in the boom and built a house for 350 or 400,000 just because that person now turns around and says im broke? whats fair about that?


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    #7169
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    sonic85 wrote: »
    of course the size of your house matters.

    who said anything about water? thats a seperate issue. you have a big house you pay more thats the way it works. otherwise the whole thing is a waste of time. like i said its unfair to suggest people living in small bungalows have to pay the same as someone in a huge two storey or dormer.

    my gran for example lives in a small cottage. do you think then that she should pay the same rate as someone who went off in the boom and built a house for 350 or 400,000 just because that person now turns around and says im broke? whats fair about that?

    Maybe 350,000 to 400,000 was the price of a small cottage at the time..:rolleyes:


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    #7170
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    sonic85 wrote: »
    of course the size of your house matters.

    who said anything about water? thats a seperate issue. you have a big house you pay more thats the way it works. otherwise the whole thing is a waste of time. like i said its unfair to suggest people living in small bungalows have to pay the same as someone in a huge two storey or dormer.

    my gran for example lives in a small cottage. do you think then that she should pay the same rate as someone who went off in the boom and built a house for 350 or 400,000 just because that person now turns around and says im broke? whats fair about that?

    Why should I pay more because I have a big house? It cost me more to run my house so I pay more anyway.
    What exactly am I paying for again if it's to do with the size of my house?


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    #7171
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    hondasam wrote: »
    Why should I pay more because I have a big house? It cost me more to run my house so I pay more anyway.
    What exactly am I paying for again if it's to do with the size of my house?

    Begrudgery perhaps?


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