Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Wild Bill

phil1nj wrote: »

His answer was (to paraphrase) you have 200k worth of wealth still attached to your home. The fact that you paid 300k for it is really tough cheese. But the 200k of "wealth" is fair game to be taxed. That appears to be his take and from some of his replies he is standing by it.

OK....so he's even more...eh...challenged than I thought? :cool:

Would you agree with Al's take on this Francie? Don't be coy!

TimmyoTooleI

Wild Bill wrote: »

TimmyoTooleI wrote: »

but there's certain sh&t we gotta do now

Exactly my point!

Then lets do it Bill. it's the go getters like you will get this country going again. Good on ya

alastair

phil1nj wrote: »

And would these offset costs accumulate interest and penalties? Because the way I'm reading it, once someone can not pay a property tax (for whatever reason), it gets applied against the final sale of the house which, incidentally , is the only way the person can access the "wealth" contained within the property, this is despite your stance that there is an immediate taxable wealth associated with the property. You could end up in a situation whereby the government gets a lions share of the value of the sale (an extreme case but then again who's to say it won't be the norm)?

Hardly seems right that a government can effectively take money from something that was bought and paid for long before this tax came in. What if a person on a low income lives in an area that suddenly becomes desirable to live in ( maybe they inherited / bought their parents house to stay in the area). I know you'll say that waivers/exemptions will be made for such situations but then you end up with a taxation system that will once again squeeze people who are in the middle (middle income earners with mortgages and slightly above average incomes). The usual suspects for every tax in this country.

That must be some property tax you expect, if you think it might outweigh the value of the house at point of sale! If an offset for those unable to pay was enforced, then no penalties should come into play - they're not attempting to evade the charge, so why would it? Again we don't know the plans - it could be that there's a simple exemption for those who prove inability to pay - just look to the models applied in the UK and Europe - no need to reinvent the wheel here.

Frank Black

Wild Bill wrote: »

(Unfortunately legally you own the house and they have a 'claim' on it...they make the rules you see)

Sadly, the divil is in the small print.

Any sign of an answer to my 300k question Francie? (I realize your reactions are so much slower than mine - but come on - fgs!)

Not an argument I entered during its first incarnation, nor one I intend to enter now. Found it a Bit boring and irrelevant to the actual issues tbh.

Suggest you find someone else to argue with.

Wild Bill

TimmyoTooleI wrote: »

Then lets do it Bill. it's the go getters like you will get this country going again. Good on ya

I'm right in front of ya Timmy!

Let's start by thrashing the house tax; the dominoes are all lined up after that!

Avante!

Wild Bill

black francis wrote: »

Suggest you find someone else to argue with.

Saturday morning Francie - I like an easy work-out.

TimmyoTooleI

Wild Bill wrote: »

TimmyoTooleI wrote: »

Then lets do it Bill. it's the go getters like you will get this country going again. Good on ya

I'm right in front of ya Timmy!

Let's start by thrashing the house tax; the dominoes are all lined up after that!

Avante!

You're getting confused Bill and misplacing that energy of yours. Focus.

Wild Bill

TimmyoTooleI wrote: »

You're getting confused Bill and misplacing that energy of yours. Focus.

Ah sheet!

And there was me thinking we were singing from the same hymn sheet - albeit me the songbird and you the crow

Bullseye1

Exactly. The government is more concerned with keeping the Croke Park Agreement intact than in helping the real economy. They have done nothing but put obstacles in the way of private sector business.

Wibbs wrote: »

That's the issue I have. I already pay for my electricity, gas, telephone, telly and pay for my refuse collection(and healthcare). I pay car tax to use the road and I'll happily pay a water charge for the production of my fresh water. A friend of mine who bought his own house(before the boom) paid for connection charges for his services which ran into the thousands, never mind the stamp duty which ran into the many thousands and never mind the many thousands he's paid and continues to pay in taxes associated with his mortgage. Now he, me and others are asked for more? For the local councils? My local council are about much use as tits on a bull and I'm living in the big schmoke.

OK we're broke? Streamline local councils, make them more efficient, reduce or stop the half billion euro a year that goes to overseas charity, reduce/streamline the costs involved with the arts/Irish language stuff. Thats before you look at streamlining the public service to remove the non jobs for the idiot sons of idiot sons. You'd save at least a billion with that lot. Of course that will barely register with the gombeen men and women.

I dunno we Irish are a strange lot. Drop us anywhere else in the world and we've built nations. Our private sector business men and women are bloody good(again mostly overseas), we have a wealth of talent out there going to waste and again going overseas, yet as far as governance and organisation in this country, we're like some tired old english comedians Paddy joke.

phil1nj

alastair wrote: »

just look to the models applied in the UK and Europe - no need to reinvent the wheel here.

Let's look at the UK, it's the most common example people use with their council charges etc. Am I right in saying that this council charge goes towards general upkeep and refuse collection (and other such services )? Well if so then that rules out the proposed Irish system being the same. The council don't collect my refuse, they don't look after the estate I live in nor do they do pretty much anything else (never seen a street sweeper/guy with a brush) cleaning the paths in front of my house etc. They don't do much I'm afraid as far as I can see. They will however start knocking on people's doors for this charge when it isn't paid. Class

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/council-staff-to-knock-on-doors-for-100-house-charge-3060116.html

alastair

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Exactly. The government is more concerned with keeping the Croke Park Agreement intact than in helping the real economy. They have done nothing but put obstacles in the way of private sector business.

Saying it doesn't make it true. There have been cuts/redundancies/salary reductions right across state sector spending, the Croke Park Agreement has responsibilities as well as commitments - its not a one-way arrangement, and I'm finding no more obstacles placed in the way of my business than before things went tits up (aside from the private sector ones of credit and cash flow).

alastair

phil1nj wrote: »

Well if so then that rules out the proposed Irish system being the same.

Go and check out where your local authority has been spending its budget - because it's public information. UK rates may well be more than what you will be asked for in the tiered property tax, and are definitely more than the €100 you're liable for this year. The fact that no-one sweeps your road isn't really the point - the actual services that are being provided need to be paid for, and currently we're not paying enough to cover those services. I'm making a wild guess here, but I'd say not every road in the uk gets the sweep treatment either.

TwoShedsJackson

They will not wear uniforms but will have to carry and produce photo identification.

"We want the local authorities to be on the ground," a spokesman said.


"Come April 2, local authorities will start knocking on doors. The legislation provides for the local authorities to decide when it initiates court proceedings and we don't want people to get into legal action which can be costly.

"It's a matter for local authorities to decide what areas to targets. Staff will carry the appropriate identification."

The number of inspections to be carried out will be decided by individual councils, which will also decide how many staff to allocate to the task. Officials will be drawn from various council departments.

If they don't know who's paid how do they know where to 'target'? Or will it be a case of calling to the middle-class and working poor areas first?

Can't see them trawling around Darndale or Jobstown knocking on doors and asking for €100 Still, they'll have to ring me on my mobile first if they want me to answer the door, the days of opening the door to randomners are long gone - if it's not those twats from Airtricity it's travellers or kids looking for money in the guise of 'sponsorship'. Sod off the lot of you.

2pack

I live in the country and have our own water well, septic tank which we maintain ourselves
have no bins as pay at dumping site and the road in to our place you think a bomb hit it.
The council have not touched it in 17 years and never seen ever working on it. I pay my motor tax and its increased too and my car is wrecked going in and out this road and the only time i will see them now is (like the politicians) on the doorstep when they are looking for something from you, it wont be to do anything for you,what a cheek, il put the dog on them

Im told the government do not have the money for upkeep of the roads etc in my area so whats the hell would i pay this charge for.
Nothing will be done or nothing will change in my area as money will go elsewhere.
These scare tactics wont bother me,Im not paying and will go to court.. im just cant believe how low this government will stoop to but FineGael were always lowlifes and as for labour they not worth talking about.

Bullseye1

alastair wrote: »

Saying it doesn't make it true. There have been cuts/redundancies/salary reductions right across state sector spending, the Croke Park Agreement has responsibilities as well as commitments - its not a one-way arrangement, and I'm finding no more obstacles placed in the way of my business than before things went tits up (aside from the private sector ones of credit and cash flow).

We are still borrowing way too much to pay public expenditure with less people working and expected to pay more tax.

They have increased VAT in one of the worst global recessions in history. People are too frightened to spend and now they will spend less.

They have gone back on their promise to do away with upward only rent because NAMA has too much commercial property on their books.

They promised to tackle the commercial rates issue. Some businesses are expected to pay over €100,000 at the beginning of the financial year. What do they get for it? They already pay extra for water, they pay their own ESB, heating, refuse waste collection, recycling charges, etc. Some businesses could employ 2-3 people extra a year on the rates they pay. These people in turn would pay tax.

They are now going to make companies responsible for paying people's sick leave. They already brought in legislation for them to provide pensions, yet are doing nothing about the over inflated public sector pension bill.

They brought in legislation about the health and safety issues about driving to work. Why was that necessary and why put more nonsense on thr shoulders of business.

They have done nothing about working on Saturday and Sunday. Why should those days be any different from the other 5 days?

They are only concerned about not upsetting the unions. Why do we have unions for government and the public sector in general. I can understand the need in the private sector.

Wild Bill

alastair wrote: »

GThe fact that no-one sweeps your road isn't really the point - the actual services that are being provided need to be paid for

Wrong :mad:

That actual Public Servants are what "need to be paid for" here.

Those same people and politicians providing crap services with the bit of cash left after their grossly excessive wage and pension bills have been paid from the borrowed money.

username123

phil1nj wrote: »

They will however start knocking on people's doors for this charge when it isn't paid.

Knocking on doors? Between the hours of 9-5 seeing as its PS staff. Sure who will be home? People with exemptions?

Not to mention the obvious - but who answers the door to strangers these days?

Wild Bill

Could I (humbly) suggest you all put Al on your ignore-lists and leave him to me?

That way we'll make progress. You can argue the facts with the (very few) serious posters on the pro-Regime side and I'll deal with Al et al?

Division of labour increases productivity :cool:

phil1nj

alastair wrote: »

The fact that no-one sweeps your road isn't really the point - the actual services that are being provided need to be paid for, and currently we're not paying enough to cover those services. I'm making a wild guess here, but I'd say not every road in the uk gets the sweep treatment either.

Oh but that is the point. People are being asked to pay for "services" that the local authority provides. This has been met by the same question over and over again -what services? There is no evidence of any of these services being put in to place in or around the estate I live in (ok, the lights come on at night but I'm sure a small % of my excessive income tax and USC payment goe towards that). IMHO, maybe a better idea would have been to set it at around 700Euro for the year (give or take an adjustment depending on location, services required by individual payers etc) and this charge should have covered refuse charges, water charges and general upkeep of the local area. At least then people might, just might feel like they are getting value for money and not being bent over a chair once again.

Also, if this charge is for council/local authority services like you say (because the government have told you they would be with their extensive leaflet/radio campaign) why isn't everyone expected to pay? Including those in council houses,renting, living in unfinished estates and on mortgage interest relief? Do these people not avail of the same services in an area that others do -parks, libraries etc? Why were these people exempted? As you said yourself the fact you may not actually see these services in action does not negate the fact that they have to paid for........by some it seems, not all though:rolleyes:.

phil1nj

username123 wrote: »

Knocking on doors? Between the hours of 9-5 seeing as its PS staff. Sure who will be home? People with exemptions?

Not to mention the obvious - but who answers the door to strangers these days?

Good point. Also if they do start knocking on doors outside of the hours of 9 to 5 surely some sort of overtime payment will kick (Public Service workers and all). yet another cost that will detract from the overall take of this charge.

And what happens if no-one answers? Do you get a slip through your door saying that a council inspector called but you weren't in but he/she did observe evidence of a HOUSE on the property so pay up or its off to court with you (bigger version of the TV license strategy) :D:D:D

hondasam

Ghandee wrote: »

I only asked because I'm interested in how many PS/CS workers are contributing to this thread.

Why does it matter where people work? we all have to pay regardless whether we are PS/CS.

hondasam

Bullseye1 wrote: »

They brought in legislation about the health and safety issues about driving to work. Why was that necessary and why put more nonsense on thr shoulders of business.

They have done nothing about working on Saturday and Sunday. Why should those days be any different from the other 5 days?

They are only concerned about not upsetting the unions. Why do we have unions for government and the public sector in general. I can understand the need in the private sector.

Health and safety is important. Why should people work Saturday/Sunday for less pay, do you think people who work shift work should not get paid extra for it? It is unsociable working hours no matter how you look at it. I'm talking about night shift work here.
Anyone can join a union it's not just the Public service.

Killed

There's no entitlement in legislation for any extra money for a Saturday anyway.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Ghandee

hondasam wrote: »

Why does it matter where people work? we all have to pay regardless whether we are PS/CS.

well, it matters a bit.

Some of the taxes we pay in private sector, goes towards paying PS/CS salaries and pensions.

Less tax payments from us, would eventually have to trickle down to less pay/pension cuts to them.

I'm not bashing anyone working in these sectors, but they can hardly be considered as 100% impartial.

Let's call a spade a spade here.

alastair

Aquila wrote: »

and if the monies received were to be solely ring fenced for local services.

They are (or at least for local authorities - they decide what to spend them on)

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

well, it matters a bit.

Some of the taxes we pay in private sector, goes towards paying PS/CS salaries and pensions.

Less tax payments from us, would eventually have to trickle down to less pay/pension cuts to them.

I'm not bashing anyone working in these sectors, but they can hardly be considered as 100% impartial.

Let's call a spade a spade here.

Load of cobblers. The taxes that public/private sector workers pay also go towards services that benefit you - no-one is impartial as to where their taxes go - we all rely on them.

melekalikimaka

this thread amuses me, its like a magnet for keyboard warriors

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

alastair

Aquila wrote: »

Waste/squandered until that is fixed no matter what revenue is given to local authorities there wont be change.

Well - that's why you get to vote for your local representatives - don't like the job they're doing - vote someone else in.