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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #5972
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    It still would not surprise me to see a big surge of sheep into the slaughter house.

    Gosh. This tax is obviously far far more deadly than I'd given it credit for.


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    #5973
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    Gosh. This tax is obviously far far more deadly than I'd given it credit for.

    Well sheep are easily led to the point of slaughter.

    Im saying there could be a surge of registrations by people in a similar manner to the sheep analogy, (it wont all be people that think its a fair tax like you do) agreeing with what you said in a way. But even in agreeing, you argue. :D


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    #5974
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    black francis wrote: »
    What do you think would happen exactly after we burn the bondholders?

    Had we done so a year ago we'd be on the road to recovery now...rather than the road to ruin. Which we are -we simply cannot repay the debt; reality check.

    But the question is irrelevant to the democracy issue.

    We voted to ditch FF policies; for parties that would "burn the bondholders" and "renegotiate the bad deal" etc.

    We got a continuation of FF policy.

    That is not democratic. It makes a farce of so-called democracy.

    China has some good economic policies - it doesn't delude itself that it's democratic as well.

    The default isn't something I hope for; hope is irrelevant - default will occur because it must occur.

    The quicker it happens the less damage to the economy and to democracy. Let's:

    (1) refuse to pay the property tax
    (2) pay for everything we can in cash especially trades folk and professional services - dentists/doctors etc
    (3) shop anywhere (like NI) that doesn't contribute to the exchequer run by the current illegitimate Regime
    (4) Shop for food in Farmer's markets (it's healthier anyway)
    (5) Max out on car boot sales and barter where it's convenient to do so.
    (6)Take all your money out of the Irish banking system; buy gold or stuff the cash in a safe underground; whatever. Minimize your use of banks.
    (7)Don't tax your car - you'll never get caught with careful routing
    (8)Don't ever pay your first TV licence if you haven't already done so
    (9)Bombard the tax-office with endless queries and calls for re-checking - it costs and keeps them distracted.
    (10) In short do anything you can think of that costs the state money or deprives it and the banks of cash.

    This is like cutting out a cancer; a painful and dangerous step - but without which you'll die. In this case the life to be saved is Irish Democracy. :cool:


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    #5975
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Careful Wild Bill. Most people would consider that to be subversive to the State...


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    #5976
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Had we done so a year ago we'd be on the road to recovery now...rather than the road to ruin. Which we are -we simply cannot repay the debt; reality check.

    But the question is irrelevant to the democracy issue.

    We voted to ditch FF policies; for parties that would "burn the bondholders" and "renegotiate the bad deal" etc.

    We got a continuation of FF policy.

    That is not democratic. It makes a farce of so-called democracy.

    China has some good economic policies - it doesn't delude itself that it's democratic as well.

    The default isn't something I hope for; hope is irrelevant - default will occur because it must occur.

    The quicker it happens the less damage to the economy and to democracy. Let's:

    (1) refuse to pay the property tax
    (2) pay for everything we can in cash especially trades folk and professional services - dentists/doctors etc
    (3) shop anywhere (like NI) that doesn't contribute to the exchequer run by the current illegitimate Regime
    (4) Shop for food in Farmer's markets (it's healthier anyway)
    (5) Max out on car boot sales and barter where it's convenient to do so.
    (6)Take all your money out of the Irish banking system; buy gold or stuff the cash in a safe underground; whatever. Minimize your use of banks.
    (7)Don't tax your car - you'll never get caught with careful routing
    (8)Don't ever pay your first TV licence if you haven't already done so
    (9)Bombard the tax-office with endless queries and calls for re-checking - it costs and keeps them distracted.
    (10) In short do anything you can think of that costs the state money or deprives it and the banks of cash.

    This is like cutting out a cancer; a painful and dangerous step - but without which you'll die. In this case the life to be saved is Irish Democracy. :cool:

    You left out bank robbery and shoplifting. Might as well go the whole hog.


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    #5977
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Wild Bill, you're advocating total anarchy. I'm against the property tax but come on man.


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    #5978
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    seamus wrote: »
    Careful Wild Bill. Most people would consider that to be subversive to the State...

    ...or just standard forum warrior nonsense. I know where my vote lies.


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    #5979
    Africa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Africa


    In fairness, Wild Bill aint far off. We're toast already. Thanks to those dickbags in the dail. Yeah, I single handedly blame the politicians for not sorting out the banks when they should have. And leaving noone accountable. Useless gits. So yeah, nice list W.B.


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    #5980
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    ...or just standard forum warrior nonsense. I know where my vote lies.

    Id say warriors are out numbered by pristine perfect posters who are flawless.


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    #5981
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    mconigol wrote: »
    My point is that democracy caused it in the first place. Hence "turkeys voting for Christmas". People chose this path democratically.

    Just because you don't agree with a law doesn't make in undemocratic.

    Like I've said I'm opposed to the charge. Probably based on different opinions to a lot here but I still know that it is democratic.

    Clearly you don't understand that a fundamental and necessary part of democracy is that the people are entitled to be wrong? I don't think you really grasp the concept.

    But in a democracy, the policies people vote for are not entitled to be ignored - whether you like them or not. When that happens the ruling Regime loses it's legitimacy - the legitimacy on which a state's laws are based.

    And a law pushed by an illegitimate Regime is in fact an attack on the people. Such as the house tax. And in this case an attack backed by threats of violence (as all laws are).

    So, we have an illegitimate regime threatening violence against the majority of the population.

    It's almost enough to get me out on the street protesting. But I think working to deprive the Regime of revenue is a more fruitful activity; still protests help if they use up huge policing resources and deter tourists, inward investment etc.

    Remember; first we must remove the cancer - then, and only then, comes the recovery :cool:


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    #5982
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    seamus wrote: »
    Careful Wild Bill. Most people would consider that to be subversive to the State...

    And I care? :rolleyes:

    It is our duty to oppose undemocratic Regimes.The fact that most people (if it's true - we'll see when default looms larger) are happy to cheer on the Arab Spring but lose their moral clarity when faced with local fascism is for them to ponder.


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    #5983
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    alastair wrote: »
    You left out bank robbery and shoplifting. Might as well go the whole hog.

    I would never advocate activities that break the code of Common Law.


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    #5984
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    mconigol wrote: »
    My point is that democracy caused it in the first place. Hence "turkeys voting for Christmas". People chose this path democratically.

    Just because you don't agree with a law doesn't make in undemocratic.

    Like I've said I'm opposed to the charge. Probably based on different opinions to a lot here but I still know that it is democratic.

    Clearly you don't understand that a fundamental and necessary part of democracy is that the people are entitled to be wrong? I don't think you really grasp the concept.

    But in a democracy, the policies people vote for are not entitled to be ignored - whether you like them or not. When that happens the ruling Regime loses it's legitimacy - the legitimacy on which a state's laws are based.

    And a law pushed by an illegitimate Regime is in fact an attack on the people. Such as the house tax. And in this case an attack backed by threats of violence (as all laws are).

    So, we have an illegitimate regime threatening violence against the majority of the population.

    It's almost enough to get me out on the street protesting. But I think working to deprive the Regime of revenue is a more fruitful activity; still protests help if they use up huge policing resources and deter tourists, inward investment etc.

    Remember; first we must remove the cancer - then, and only then, comes the recovery :cool:

    So just to be clear - you're standing over your right to be wrong (full marks there), and all laws are violence. And this government are illegitimate because they ignored your right to be wrong.

    Glad that's all cleared up.


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    #5985
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    I would never advocate activities that break the code of Common Law.

    Ha Hah! A 'freeman' - you win a prize for checking all the 'escape to fantasy' boxes!

    I refuse your contract - do you stand on your oath?


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    #5986
    demanufactured
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭demanufactured


    Article 40.5 of the Constitution declares that the dwelling of a citizen in Ireland is inviolable and shall not be entered forcibly except save in accordance with law. This means that no one, including the Gardai (Irish police force), may enter the place where you live without a warrant or other legal authority to enter. Now the legal authority the warrant with is not lawful unless you constent to stand under such private law.
    Tax is NOT Common Law , Common Law is that which is Lawful not Legal, i.e the law of the land, which only covers, bodily harm, theft, loss of injury, murder etc...... Tax is not covered within this.

    Consent: An agreement to something proposed and differs from assent. Consent supposes, 1. a physical
    power to act; 2. a moral power of acting; 3. a serious and determined and free use of those powers.
    Consent is either express or implied. Express when it is given viva voce, or in writing; implied, when it is
    manifested by signs, actions or facts, or inaction or silence, which raise the presumption that the consent has
    been given.
    Let’s suppose that someone comes up to you and says, “I am your government, pay me taxes.” And
    you then pay, have you not accepted their claim that they are your government? If a demand is made, it rests upon a claim. Meeting the demand means you have accepted the claim. The word ‘accept’ implies ability to ‘reject’. When you reject their claim the demand has no foundation. At that point the claim has to be either abandoned or defended. Defending a claim means that they, as human beings, have to use words.
    Consent is not the same as assent. It doesn’t require a positive affirmation from you. It is just as easily
    achieved through your silence as it is through your words.
    The Supreme Court of Ireland ruled that since Ireland enjoys a Common Law Jurisdiction, the
    government’s power to govern comes from the consent of the governed. They did not say consent of the
    majority of the governed, either.
    As I understand it, the only form of government recognized as lawful in Ireland is a representative
    one, and representation requires mutual consent. I cannot act as your agent without your say so; the reverse is also true. If you create a situation where you do not have a representative, then no one can claim that you have a government. If you do not have a government, who has the right to claim they are your government agent? Who has the right to claim that you are a member of that particular society when the defining characteristic of a societal member is the fact that they have consented to being represented?
    Denying consent is not all that difficult; all you have to do is give notice and make them aware that he or she
    is no longer your representative. You simply fire them and tell them you will exist outside of the legislative
    framework. Since they are only allowed to provide service to the public with respect to the legislative
    framework, and you are no longer part of that framework, they can no longer lawfully provide you with their
    ‘services’.

    Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011- is an act of law, and can only be governed through consent, its as simple as that, read up on The Law and the difference between legal and lawful, consent is how the private law of the Irish Government is governed


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    #5987
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Hooray! all the freemen bolloxology in one convenient thread.

    Maritime laws ftw.


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    #5988
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    alastair wrote: »
    Hooray! all the freemen bolloxology in one convenient thread.

    Maritime laws ftw.

    So when you can't talk sense, or refute something above, you come out with this post?

    Right! :pac:


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    #5989
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    alastair wrote: »
    Hooray! all the freemen bolloxology in one convenient thread.

    Maritime laws ftw.

    Your equally guilty of spouting blue shirt bollox too, just to be fair.


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    #5990
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Biggins wrote: »
    So when you can't talk sense, or refute something above, you come out with this post?

    Right! :pac:

    How exactly do you refute this fantasyland nonsense. Or maybe you subscribe to it too?


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    #5991
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Your equally guilty of spouting blue shirt bollox too, just to be fair.

    Not really. If I call you a FF shill, does it make it true? I've already made quite clear that I'm not a FG supporter.


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    #5992
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    alastair wrote: »
    Wild Bill wrote: »

    So just to be clear - you're standing over your right to be wrong (full marks there), and all laws are violence. And this government are illegitimate because they ignored your right to be wrong.

    Glad that's all cleared up.

    No, I'm standing over the right of the majority to be wrong. Not my right to be wrong.

    All laws are ultimately enforced by the threat of violence; the average 7 year old can join the dots on that. :rolleyes:

    This Regime is illegitimate because it ignored the mandate it was elected on and adopted policies which were utterly rejected by the electorate.

    That is why Ireland is no longer a democratic state.


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    #5993
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    alastair wrote: »
    Not really. If I call you a FF shill, does it make it true? I've already made quite clear that I'm not a FG supporter.

    Lol,


    FF you say? :pac:

    Never voted FF in my life!


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    #5994
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    alastair wrote: »
    Ha Hah! A 'freeman' - you win a prize for checking all the 'escape to fantasy' boxes!

    Hmmmm...that isn't an argument. I doubt you'll be laughing when the soup kitchens start appearing on the streets.


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    #5995
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    alastair wrote: »
    How exactly do you refute this fantasyland nonsense. Or maybe you subscribe to it too?

    No, I don't subscribe to your posts at all. :pac:

    Was in the local post office this morning and there was s stack of the Household charge forms out (and signposted on a glass screen as available).
    I asked the staff member how many had they seen many taken just out of curiosity - they said they had seen only one taken!
    Make of that what you will.


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    #5996
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    alastair wrote: »

    No, I'm standing over the right of the majority to be wrong. Not my right to be wrong.

    All laws are ultimately enforced by the threat of violence; the average 7 year old can join the dots on that. :rolleyes:

    This Regime is illegitimate because it ignored the mandate it was elected on and adopted policies which were utterly rejected by the electorate.

    That is why Ireland is no longer a democratic state.

    You are aware this is a republic, and not a democracy, yeah? And that we continue to employ a representational democratic electoral process for selecting our government. We mandate our government with the power to, eh govern, for the duration of their office. Nothing has changed in that regard - even if your freeman fiction suggests otherwise.


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    #5997
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Biggins wrote: »
    No, I don't subscribe to your posts at all. :pac:

    Ah hah ha! I see what you did there! Very clever. About as clever as buying into freeman myths.


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    #5998
    toexpress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭toexpress


    Shenshen wrote: »
    It's €100, that's around €8.33 a month.

    I'm finding it absolutely baffling how people can get worked up over this, yet will happily spend as much on a single drink on a night out....

    Get a grip. Seriously.

    I would be fairly hacked off over this for the simple reason that when things were booming here I listened to the advice and I bought property. At the time I paid stamp duty, the tax levied against a property in this country, the one off payment that we all made when buying property.

    Now that Fianna Fail dropped is into Sh*t Creek, gave the old canoe a real good push having robbed us of our paddle (probably sent out to Germany in hock for the debts like) I have to pay out a new property tax. I also fall liable for the charge on investment property. I also have to pay the €200 NPPR fee.

    Also this year that property tax is €100 but next year it is likely to be considerably more.


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    #5999
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Lol,


    FF you say? :pac:

    Never voted FF in my life!

    No? and yet you know better than I do about my own position?


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    #6000
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Biggins wrote: »
    No, I don't subscribe to your posts at all. :pac:

    Was in the local post office this morning and there was s stack of the Household charge forms out (and signposted on a glass screen as available).
    I asked the staff member how many had they seen many taken just out of curiosity - they said they had seen only one taken!
    Make of that what you will.

    You were signing on?


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    #6001
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    alastair wrote: »
    Hooray! all the freemen bolloxology in one convenient thread.


    That's not an argument either.

    One of your fellow-travelers here made a post commenting that there were only about 100 real (by his definition) anti-house tax posters in a thread of 5,000 posts.

    He forgot to point out that maybe 3,000 of those posts come from about three or for people.

    And I reckon you win the prize for writing most while saying least.;)


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