New Household Tax - Boycott

AlekSmart · 19-03-2012 12:53pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

We were forced into nothing. Your post is nothing but emotive rabble. You mention being in line with Europe but fail to address that point, you seem to think the government isn't "us" and you refuse to contribute a frankly insultingly low amount to attempt to get back on track. This is not mentioning the selling out soul nonsense - I truly hope that people who do not pay with your type of intent are prosecuted to the fullest extent available under the law.

The final sentence is the real sticking point here.

Will there be any enforcement ?

We have currently an Ireland in which perhaps 50% of it's adult population see themselves as victims in some way or form.

This grouping appear to have little regard for the fact that it was their democratic choice,freely exercised over several decades to elect Governments as they saw fit.

Instead of any attempt at self-interrogation,we are now constantly treated to renderings of Ochón ochón as we proffess communal ignorance of what our Governmental policies were.

Whilst abberant bankers and their policies contrtibuted immensely to our present position,we cannot escape the fact that a vast array of ordinary Joe Soaps willingly partook in a wild orgy of borrowing,spending and high living over several years.

Now it;s payback time and nobody wants to know...?

Permabear · 19-03-2012 1:44pm

This post has been deleted.

Valmont · 19-03-2012 2:01pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I think it's a great tax and should probably be higher in all honesty.

Nobody is stopping you from paying a higher amount than the rest of us. Will you be writing a larger cheque?

FreudianSlippers · 19-03-2012 2:01pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

The final sentence is the real sticking point here.

Will there be any enforcement ?

We have currently an Ireland in which perhaps 50% of it's adult population see themselves as victims in some way or form.

This grouping appear to have little regard for the fact that it was their democratic choice,freely exercised over several decades to elect Governments as they saw fit.

Instead of any attempt at self-interrogation,we are now constantly treated to renderings of Ochón ochón as we proffess communal ignorance of what our Governmental policies were.

Whilst abberant bankers and their policies contrtibuted immensely to our present position,we cannot escape the fact that a vast array of ordinary Joe Soaps willingly partook in a wild orgy of borrowing,spending and high living over several years.

Now it;s payback time and nobody wants to know...?

Well, my statement is something of a misnomer as they will not actually have to prosecute anyone to get the money as they will simply put a charge for the amount (to include the late payment amount) on the property. There is summary procedure available against people who commit other offences under the Act.

Valmont wrote: »

Will you writing a higher cheque in that case? I doubt it somehow.

Yes, if it was €1000 I'd still have paid it.

RichardAnd · 19-03-2012 2:05pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Can you clarify, then: do you have moral objections to paying motor tax on a car that you wholly own? You were guilty of hyperbole anyway, because the example you offered was unrealistic. There are a lot of things that many people here would disagree with, but that doesn't make it any less repugnant for a TD who shares their views to encourage them to break the law.

I'm late getting back to this as I was away for the weekend.

Firstly, I've never given motor tax a whole lot of thought as I don't own a car and when I was in college, I borrowed my mother's car so I've never paid motor tax. What do I think about it, well in the same sense that I don't like handing over tax when I see such waste, I wouldn't be keen on paying motor tax when I know that there is no promise that the revenue will be spent to maintain roads. Permabear outlines this issue perfectly so I will sum it up; demonstrate real reforms and savings, then look for more tax.

As to your accusation of hyperbole, I don't want to get into that too much as it's an aside issue. What I will say is that it is wise to question every action of those in power because the day that a population do everything their rulers tell them to do without question, that is the day true freedom dies.

Permabear · 19-03-2012 2:10pm

This post has been deleted.

Valmont · 19-03-2012 2:11pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Yes, if it was €1000 I'd still have paid it.

Why don't you write a cheque for €1000 euro then? Asking to be told to pay more tax is a strange way of going about things.

FreudianSlippers · 19-03-2012 2:17pm

Valmont wrote: »

Why don't you write a cheque for €1000 euro then? Asking to be told to pay more tax is a strange way of going about things.

Is it? I don't like paying tax, but a flat tax on everyone is better than the shíte I currently deal with paying tax for a quarter of the country to collect their social welfare payments.

We need a property tax and I will pay it. It makes no sense to argue that I should voluntarily pay more because I would be willing to pay more if they requested it.

oscarBravo · 19-03-2012 2:23pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The average taxpayer isn't demanding those things. The average taxpayer is carping on about bondholders and the IMF.

As I said earlier: if the most vocal opponents of this tax were advocating deep and painful austerity in its place, I might have some respect for their views. The fact that most of the same people who are advocating tax evasion are also complaining about austerity speaks for itself.

oscarBravo · 19-03-2012 2:29pm

RichardAnd wrote: »

...in the same sense that I don't like handing over tax when I see such waste, I wouldn't be keen on paying motor tax when I know that there is no promise that the revenue will be spent to maintain roads.

I'm not keen on being denied a PAYE tax allowance despite paying every cent of my income tax through the PAYE system. I'm not keen on being forced to pay PRSI, but being denied almost every social welfare benefit that accrues to most PRSI contributors. I'm not keen on being assessed for income tax as a single person, while my income is included in a means test of my co-habiting partner.

I'm also not keen on waste. But I'm not fooling myself that tax evasion is a legitimate response to any of these things.

...it is wise to question every action of those in power because the day that a population do everything their rulers tell them to do without question, that is the day true freedom dies.

I've never suggested for a moment that people shouldn't question the government. I've suggested that they shouldn't break the law.

If you can't distinguish between exercising your democratic right (and, indeed, duty) to hold the government to account and tax evasion, I'm not sure I can help you.

Permabear · 19-03-2012 3:19pm

This post has been deleted.

FreudianSlippers · 19-03-2012 3:33pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I think what we need to do is exactly that. Start from scratch, look at the big picture and create a balanced budget. See how painful that looks and reassess. If public sector workers aren't happy with pay reductions, then they can assess whether it's better for them to find alternative employment in the private sector.

The average public servant simply should not expect to earn wages of €50,000+. The average unemployed person should not expect entitlements that rival the returns from a low-wage job. In other countries, eliminating such excesses would not be called "austerity" — it would be common sense.

"Austerity" is a label created and manipulated by the Irish far-left to describe modest cuts to the costs of running the state, which increased by a whopping 140 percent between 2000 and 2008. It's a bit like describing someone going on a diet after years of binge eating as starving herself.

Agreed. At a bare minimum we should cut public sector pay to private sector or European levels. A unified public sector pay grading would be of use as well IMO.

The public, however, is far more concerned about attempting to control private sector pay which is ludicrous.

Valmont · 19-03-2012 4:46pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The public, however, is far more concerned about attempting to control private sector pay which is ludicrous.

I take this point to be a good indicator of the relative hopelessness of the situation, to be honest.

Bullseye1 · 19-03-2012 4:50pm

Will this tax also give us membership to unions

bmaxi · 19-03-2012 6:29pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Is it? I don't like paying tax, but a flat tax on everyone is better than the shíte I currently deal with paying tax for a quarter of the country to collect their social welfare payments.

What unmitigated arrogance.
Presumably if you lose your job you won't be collecting Social Welfare payments then, or are you employed in the public service? I'm pretty sure the vast majority of that quarter of the population would prefer if circumstances were different.

FreudianSlippers · 19-03-2012 6:36pm

bmaxi wrote: »

What unmitigated arrogance.
Presumably if you lose your job you won't be collecting Social Welfare payments then, or are you employed in the public service? I'm pretty sure the vast majority of that quarter of the population would prefer if circumstances were different.

Self-employed and not entitled to the dole. All the more reason to be annoyed. Whilst I'm sure many on social welfare wished they were gainfully employed, I wouldn't dare say it is a "vast majority". We have two options, stop paying massive levels of social welfare or collect more tax - since we have a populist movement we have chosen to tax. Income tax is already as high as it can really go before you start causing more damage to the economy, road tax went up, VAT went up and now we will be required to pay a property tax.

I don't want to pay high income tax nor do I want to pay this household charge or a property tax; so hold your pithy "arrogance" garbage (BTW, if I am arrogant, I have that right if I so choose). I am, after all, saying that while I don't agree with high social welfare payments, I accept that the majority of people in this country do and as that is the case I must pay more tax - which I do because I recognise that is the way this system works. You now require me to not only pay over half my income in taxes but to enjoy doing it? :rolleyes:

nice_guy80 · 19-03-2012 8:52pm

As a public sector employee I generally agree that many public salaries and penions have gotten way out of line with the real economy

However, for the majority of public sector employees that is not the case

Good loser · 19-03-2012 9:58pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

As a public sector employee I generally agree that many public salaries and penions have gotten way out of line with the real economy

However, for the majority of public sector employees that is not the case

As a public sector pensioner I also agree.

What amazes me about this household charge is how many public servants and social welfare recipients oppose it for all sorts of spurious and contradictory reasons.

Surely all public servants/social werfares should favour all tax raising measures as the only alternative is - ultimately - cutting their salaries, pensions and benefits.

Remember FF, FG and Labour favoured this property tax in the last election. It's democratic.

Bullseye1 · 19-03-2012 11:05pm

Thankyou for you for your honesty. So you think that everyone else should have their wages reduced by tax hikes to that your pension is maintained. Nice.

Good loser wrote: »

As a public sector pensioner I also agree.

What amazes me about this household charge is how many public servants and social welfare recipients oppose it for all sorts of spurious and contradictory reasons.

Surely all public servants/social werfares should favour all tax raising measures as the only alternative is - ultimately - cutting their salaries, pensions and benefits.

Remember FF, FG and Labour favoured this property tax in the last election. It's democratic.

Ghandee · 19-03-2012 11:52pm

greenpilot wrote: »

11 days of false propaganda ahead. The head of the "Household Charge Collection Agency," Jackie Maguire has been peddling statistics like there is no tomorrow. She thinks that over 1.4 million households will register before the end of March. Here are some interesting details:

1. Jackie Maguire (JM) says the household charge website activity is up 2 fold
FACT :The site traffic is in decline month on month
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/householdcharge.ie#

alexa is like the TAM or JNLR of web traffic. external audience size
sampling based on browser toolbar user stats.

2. JM says that registrations have seen “significant increase over the last
ten days”
not true

average day rate prior to Feb 20th was 2115
average day rate 20 – 27 Feb was 2937

That is a 0.3 fold increase. which is not significant.

3. JM & morning ireland talk of 1.6M needing to register. but
previously JM said and knows it is 1.8M
so they are not 1.4M off the total they are 1.66M off

4. JM says general trend is upward. true. but it only amounts to 30%
increase on extremely flat figures.
if there was a 1000% increase (ten fold) from now to March 31st then
there would still be 700,000 not registered.
And right now they have a 30% increase.

Projected non registered at current rate is 1,596,562 source
http://cahwt.net/calc/

***

Don't give into the FG-Labour hype and propaganda. You saw where that got you in the last election.

Special exemptions to pay advisers €150,000 a year, Ruairi Quinn fiddling his mileage expenses, James Reilly paying €604 on coffee machines for his offic as outlined here:

James Reilly spent €624 of taxpayers’ money on two deluxe Bewley’s coffee machines — one for each of his offices. One has been installed in his office in the health department at Hawkins House while the other sits in his Leinster House rooms.

His spokesman said the minister needed the machines because he worked long hours and the Dáil restaurant and department canteen were not always open.

* He has received tax breaks for maintaining his 13-bed family mansion in Co Offaly. He received tax breaks for six years running to help pay for renovations to the three-storey Laughton House, which is surrounded by 150 acres of farm and woodland.

Oh and by the way, the chairman of the RTÉ board is Tom Savage. Tom who is married to Terry Prone and is Anton Savage of Today FM's Dad is also a director of "The Communications Clinic."

"So what" you might say.

Well, here's what:

James Reilly, the health minister, paid a public relations company €15,000 for advice on health reform as well as for speech writing advice, his office confirmed.

He paid the money last year to the Communications Clinic, whose directors are PR consultant Terry Prone and Tom Savage, the chairman of the RTÉ board.

**

I wonder if the Chairman of the board of RTÉ worries about whether or not a customer of his is criticised on RTÉ programmes?

I wonder if Terry Prone is nervous of criticising a valued customer of hers in her columns in the Examiner or when she is giving her expert opinion on various RTÉ programmes?

Vote NO to the household charge and stop funding this casino.

(taken from AH thread ^^)

Don't believe the lies folks! Stand firm.

20Cent · 19-03-2012 11:55pm

If everyone who is supposed to pay the household tax does it will still only raise 160m or so. A tiny drop in the ocean of debt, 3.2billion of banks bonds were paid this month alone and it doesn't even make a news story.

I think the slow take up for payment is firstly the way it was set up. Go to a website register giving lots of details to an open ended contract without so much as a letter. I haven't gotten the leaflet yet anyway. It was launched very badly.

The other reason is to send a message to the Gov, people are tired of being pushed around. If FG and Labour were actually fighting for Ireland in Europe instead of rolling over and giving into threats then they would be more willing to pay it. Non payment is more of a vote of confidence in the Gov and way to register displeasure without having to camp out in order to do it.

Bullseye1 · 19-03-2012 11:58pm

I agree. They promised us that they would tackle expenditure and the bloated public sector and their very generous pensions. They have failed. The Croke Park Agreement is an obsticle to our recovery and should be ripped up ASAP.

bmaxi · 20-03-2012 12:54am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Self-employed and not entitled to the dole. All the more reason to be annoyed. Whilst I'm sure many on social welfare wished they were gainfully employed, I wouldn't dare say it is a "vast majority". We have two options, stop paying massive levels of social welfare or collect more tax - since we have a populist movement we have chosen to tax. Income tax is already as high as it can really go before you start causing more damage to the economy, road tax went up, VAT went up and now we will be required to pay a property tax.

I don't want to pay high income tax nor do I want to pay this household charge or a property tax; so hold your pithy "arrogance" garbage (BTW, if I am arrogant, I have that right if I so choose). I am, after all, saying that while I don't agree with high social welfare payments, I accept that the majority of people in this country do and as that is the case I must pay more tax - which I do because I recognise that is the way this system works. You now require me to not only pay over half my income in taxes but to enjoy doing it? :rolleyes:

Taking unemployment rates before the recession against those of today, then it is the vast majority. I'm gratified to hear you're not indebted to the taxpayer in any way, educated abroad, I presume.
You're arrogant insofar as, just because you have found a niche that is capable of supporting you, you assume anybody that hasn't found their niche or has had their niche closed up, is a sponger. I don't think you, or anyone else, has a right to be arrogant, what gives you that right?
I don't expect anyone to enjoy paying taxes but we all do and quite a few of us , including that vast majority of those currently receiving Social Welfare payments, have managed to do it without expecting to be elevated to martyrdom.

Good loser · 20-03-2012 12:58am

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Thankyou for you for your honesty. So you think that everyone else should have their wages reduced by tax hikes to that your pension is maintained. Nice.

You misunderstand me.

I agree that social welfare/ ps wages and pensions are all too high given the government deficit and all have to be reduced significantly.

Such measures though will not bring the budget into balance.

This house tax too is necessary and agreed by the serious political parties.
For reasons of equity and commonsense.

Bullseye1 · 20-03-2012 1:16am

Fair enough. Thanks for your clarification.

RichardAnd · 20-03-2012 9:50am

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I agree. They promised us that they would tackle expenditure and the bloated public sector and their very generous pensions. They have failed. The Croke Park Agreement is an obsticle to our recovery and should be ripped up ASAP.

I don't think that they did, as I recall, the government-to-be seemed to be committed to upholding the Croke Park Deal.

There were alot of loose promises and vague commitments to do X, Y and Z and few solid promises. Regardless, FG/Lab got elected less for their policies and more for the simple fact that they are the only alternative to FF.

djpbarry · 20-03-2012 10:00am

Bullseye1 wrote: »

They promised us that they would tackle expenditure and the bloated public sector and their very generous pensions. They have failed.

Have cuts not been made in line with commitments made to the EU/IMF?

Furthermore, can the hole in Ireland's budget really be plugged with spending cuts alone?

Godge · 20-03-2012 10:58am

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I agree. They promised us that they would tackle expenditure and the bloated public sector and their very generous pensions. They have failed. The Croke Park Agreement is an obsticle to our recovery and should be ripped up ASAP.

no they did not.

http://www.finegael2011.com/pdf/Fine%20Gael%20Manifesto%20low-res.pdf

On page 72 it is stated:

"Croke Park Agreement: [FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]Pending a built-in review of its implementation, Fine Gael remains committed to honouring the pay elements of the Croke Park Agreement. Fine Gael has always indicated its commitment to go beyond the Croke Park Agreement in terms of the reform agenda needed to get Ireland working again. The planned reduction in public sector numbers will be achieved through voluntary mechanisms."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]Can you show me any promise from Fine Gael or Labour to tear up the Croke Park Agreement? The lie that they promised this is repeated time and again on these boards.
[/FONT][/FONT]

galway2007 · 27-03-2012 4:03pm

I believe that when Enda Kenny comes back from china he needs to do a reshuffle and remove Phil Hogan
His handling of the household charge as show him up as an incompetent minister and a minister who over 1.3 million people have no faith or respect in
He tried to bully the Irish people
He got the household bill completed wrong
He has wasted tax payer money in every way when he should be saving the state money
He said that local authority staff would be driving around the country to collect the money but forgot to factor in the cost of doing this.
And in a recent event he should lach of respect to eardely women
He has to go now Enda

golfball37 · 27-03-2012 4:06pm

It wouldn't be fair as Phil is already on record saying he can't afford a pay cut.

New Household Tax - Boycott

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