New Household Tax - Boycott

Manach

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Common law has to do with the judiciary and the courts; it's precedent. It has nothing to do with taxation and property valuation.

The "US" is also a poor example because it's not homogeneous. State to State, yeah... but even within states, County to County differ in their tax.

Texas raised as an example. Well, Texas has no state income tax and no corporate tax. They have a minimum 6.25% sales tax and localities can add up to 2%. Texas also has some of the highest property taxes in the USA.

You can compare all the states in the US if you want, we're still far more close in taxation principles and reality to the UK and the rest of the EU.

Hubris might be defined as going up against the Legal mod.
Thus (ARAIR) -
Common law has interfaced with land for centuries. There are reams of cases which give depth to the statutory interpretion of the laws in such areas as say easements, eminent domain and registration (including say Canada) which can be used as authorative rulings commonly on both sides of the Atlantic.
Indeed there are impacts from Europe. For instance in the UK, the ECHR has tweaked the balance of rights between pure possession of the land and various other rights - such as Article 8 family protection (Pillock case).
But property rights in both areas are protected except in the case of pressing social need. Ensuring that , as per a radio ad, the local library is kept going goes not strike me as particularly needful as there is no voter involvement in deciding what these social needs are. For instance in the state of California there are initiatives to curb excess property taxes that were successful and in New Hampshire a direct democracy ensure that funds raised from a property tax are effectively and locally spent. These are lessons that can be learnt from the US.

BlaasForRafa

RichardAnd wrote: »

A fresh report on RTE:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0313/household.html

Apparently, 85% of households have not yet paid the charge.

I don't think that its a mass revolt against paying the charge. I think the answer is probably simpler than that. I'd bet that most people don't know they have to pay before march 31st and/or they don't know how to pay it.

The government have been incredibly lazy and inept in trying to collect this charge and they shouldn't start crying about it. Just slapping up a website and expecting everyone to use it is pure stupidity.

For something so important they have been extremely slack in getting information out to the public, you need to be sending people letters to remind them of things like this.

mikom

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I don't think that its a mass revolt against paying the charge. I think the answer is probably simpler than that. I'd bet that most people don't know they have to pay before march 31st and/or they don't know how to pay it.

The government have been incredibly lazy and inept in trying to collect this charge and they shouldn't start crying about it. Just slapping up a website and expecting everyone to use it is pure stupidity.

For something so important they have been extremely slack in getting information out to the public, you need to be sending people letters to remind them of things like this.

You are forgetting the mass leaflet campaign.

seamus

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I don't think that its a mass revolt against paying the charge. I think the answer is probably simpler than that. I'd bet that most people don't know they have to pay before march 31st and/or they don't know how to pay it.

No, I'm with FreudianSlippers on this; there are two small groups at either end of the bell-curve who have decided that they're definitely paying it or definitely not paying it.
Then you have this massive chunk in the middle who are waiting to see what's going to happen and checking what everyone else is doing.

Anecdotally anyone who's mentioned it to me hasn't said, "I'm not paying it". They've pretty much all said, "I dunno what to do, are you gonna pay it?"

BlaasForRafa

mikom wrote: »

You are forgetting the mass leaflet campaign.

I don't recall getting any leaflets, it may have come with a bunch of domino's/lidl/harvey norman leaflets and gone in the recycling bin.

People don't pay attention to leaflets, they need to send out letters with invoices.

mikom

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

People don't pay attention to leaflets, they need to send out letters with invoices.

Qft

oscarBravo

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

People don't pay attention to leaflets, they need to send out letters with invoices.

My company doesn't get an invoice for corporation tax.

That said, I won't claim that it has been managed perfectly. I've heard stories of people being charged extra when they try to pay it with cash. That's just farcical if it's true.

psychward

I see on the news they are trying to breach data privacy and get the names and addresses of esb accounts. I foresee people getting dozens of accounts and changing them regularly under the names of grandparents, uncles and cousins etc . I would think most of the country has relatives who have been forced to emigrate who would be glad to oblige any resistance to paying off the thieving gombeens.

oscarBravo

psychward wrote: »

I see on the news they are trying to breach data privacy...

Well, no. They're working with the Data Protection Commissioner to see if there's a way they can get the data within the data privacy guidelines.

I foresee people getting dozens of accounts and changing them regularly under the names of grandparents, uncles and cousins etc . I would think most of the country has relatives who have been forced to emigrate who would be glad to oblige any resistance to paying off the thieving gombeens.

Yeah, how dare those theiving gombeens take our money and give it to all those moochers on the dole.

BlaasForRafa

oscarBravo wrote: »

Well, no. They're working with the Data Protection Commissioner to see if there's a way they can get the data within the data privacy guidelines. Yeah, how dare those theiving gombeens take our money and give it to all those moochers on the dole.

Any reason why they can't use the last census, the electoral register or the revenue to get this information?

seamus

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Any reason why they can't use the last census, the electoral register or the revenue to get this information?

ESB would be the easiest way to pin down one property to one owner I think.

Census, electoral register and revenue can give you names and addresses, but not necessarily owners and addresses. The ESB database would be the one with the best correlation between properties and their owners.

psychward

oscarBravo wrote: »

psychward wrote: »

I see on the news they are trying to breach data privacy

Well, no. They're working with the Data Protection Commissioner to see if there's a way they can get the data within the data privacy guidelines.

It doesn't matter what dishonest propaganda spin you wish to put on it. ''Working with'' the data protection commissioner is no different than how the previous administration ''worked with'' the financial regulator e.g changing or ignoring the rules to get what it wants

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yeah, how dare those theiving gombeens take our money and give it to all those moochers on the dole.

What a scumbag attitude and an extremely low dirty cheap shot too . 95% of those on the dole were working for well over a decade until the real moochers in the ECB, banks and politics stole their jobs and opportunities. The moochers on the dole are those trying to steal even more money from the people which they have already paid tax on. The real dole is in Leinster House, the Senate, the banks and the state boards where Enda is paid more than President Obama. The real moochers are also whereever a retired scumbag is to be found on an inflation busting pension while those on disability etc have their meagre incomes cut. Then of course you have a long line of moochers working in RTE , the farmers dole etc. And you have the nerve to call people crying out for work moochers ? People with your attitude are one symptom of whats wrong with this country.

zumi

Fair enough, I'll not make a career out of this. I've said my bit and I speak from experience as I have stated before. Give it a few years......

oscarBravo

psychward wrote: »

It doesn't matter what dishonest propaganda spin you wish to put on it. ''Working with'' the data protection commissioner is no different than how the previous administration ''worked with'' the financial regulator e.g changing or ignoring the rules to get what it wants

Ironically, that's a dishonest spin in its own right. If you have evidence that Billy Hawkes is doing his job in as slipshod a manner as the financial regulators of a few years ago - and personal experience indicates that, if anything, he takes the role just a little too seriously - please feel free to share it.

What a scumbag attitude and an extremely low dirty cheap shot too . 95% of those on the dole were working for well over a decade until the real moochers in the ECB, banks and politics stole their jobs and opportunities. The moochers on the dole are those trying to steal even more money from the people which they have already paid tax on. The real dole is in Leinster House, the Senate, the banks and the state boards where Enda is paid more than President Obama. The real moochers are also whereever a retired scumbag is to be found on an inflation busting pension while those on disability etc have their meagre incomes cut. Then of course you have a long line of moochers working in RTE , the farmers dole etc. And you have the nerve to call people crying out for work moochers ? People with your attitude are one symptom of whats wrong with this country.

Go look up the word "irony" - if you're having trouble with that one, try "sarcasm" - and read my post again.

If you have any ideas on how to fix a massive structural deficit without raising taxes, please feel free to share them.

oscarBravo

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Any reason why they can't use the last census, the electoral register or the revenue to get this information?

None of those provide useful information as to who owns property. Mind you, the ESB won't be much more useful - I don't pay the ESB in the property I (part) own, and I don't own the house where I do pay the bills.

There is no comprehensive residential property ownership register on which to base a property tax. This is the start of a process of addressing that problem. Hopefully it will be managed by someone more competent than whoever manages the electoral register.

psychward

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ironically, that's a dishonest spin in its own right.

No it's not. Either your data is protected or it is not. ''Working with'' to try and sabotage the customer's privacy is code for a cosy little arrangement where those in charge of protecting your information and standing up for you will do their best not to.

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you have any ideas on how to fix a massive structural deficit without raising taxes, please feel free to share them.

This unfair tax exists to pay the debts of private stockmarket gamblers and gombeenmen. It is dishonest spin in it's own right to mention phrases like structural deficit without a simultaneous acknowledgement of this fact.

oscarBravo

psychward wrote: »

No it's not. Either your data is protected or it is not.

I see you're backing down from accusing Billy Hawkes of not doing his job, which I suppose is progress of a sort.

The involvement of the DPC indicates that any data sharing will be done in accordance with the Data Protection Acts.

This unfair tax exists to pay the debts of private stockmarket gamblers and gombeenmen. It is dishonest spin in it's own right to mention phrases like structural deficit without a simultaneous acknowledgement of this fact.

And it's much more dishonest spin to bury your head in the sand and pretend that the structural deficit - the difference between the amount we spend on social welfare and public service wages and the taxes we take in - isn't the single biggest problem we're currently facing.

All the cant about gamblers and gombeens - it's just noise. It's very loud noise, and there's a lot of it about, but making noise won't make the problem go away.

oscarBravo

psychward wrote: »

''Working with'' to try and sabotage the customer's privacy is code for a cosy little arrangement where those in charge of protecting your information and standing up for you will do their best not to.

Ah, I was wrong - you're still accusing the DPC of corruption.

Once again, got any evidence to back up this defamatory claim?

Steven81

Think a lot of people from when i am asking them are going to pay the household charge at the latest possible date this month. I think more are going to pay than what i imagined a few weeks ago. Hopefully i am wrong but i think it will be 50 50.

Will be good to see if the government releases figures showing were the money they have received is being spent in local areas and not just given to our friends in Europe.

RandomName2

keithob wrote: »

€100 start €1200 in the next 10 years.....

Huh? It's going to be around that in about a year's time, not ten. This isn't the property tax, this is just a temporary household tax.


Note the following (from MoneyGuide):

The property tax should be in place by 2014 – but it is possible it could start as early as 2013.

The temporary Household Charge of €100 per property came into force in Ireland from January 2012 – but this is only in place until a full Irish Property Tax system is set up

The Government has now established a “Property Tax Epert group ” to recommend an appropriate system of property tax.

The amounts of Property Tax suggested in the Commission on Taxation's report were as follows

• Valued Under €150,000 – Tax Amount in the range €188 to €225 a year
• Valued between €150k to €300k – Property Tax between€563 and €675 a year
• Valued between €300k and €450k – Property Tax between €938 and €1125 a year
• Valued between €450k and €600k – Property Tax between €1313 and €1575 a year
• Valued between €600k and €750k – Property Tax between €1688 and €2025 a year
• Valued between €750k and €1m – Property Tax between €2188 and €2625 a year
• Valued between €1m and €1.5m – Property Tax between €3125 and €3750 a year
• Valued Over €1.5m – tax based on between 0.25% and 0.3% of the value.

psychward

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ah, I was wrong - you're still accusing the DPC of corruption.

Once again, got any evidence to back up this defamatory claim?

you're a troublemaker who should go write for the tabloids which nobody is buying . The whole system of governance is corrupt and not above board and everyone knows it apart from you who have your head stuck where the sun doesn't shine .

oscarBravo

psychward wrote: »

oscarBravo wrote: »

Once again, got any evidence to back up this defamatory claim?

you're a troublemaker who should go write for the tabloids which nobody is buying . The whole system of governance is corrupt and not above board and everyone knows it apart from you who have your head stuck where the sun doesn't shine .

I'll take that as a "no, I accused a public servant of corruption with no evidence" so.

It's ironic that you call me a troublemaker - I'm not the one defaming people without evidence.

psychward

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'll take that as a "no, I accused a public servant of corruption with no evidence" so.

It's ironic that you call me a troublemaker - I'm not the one defaming people without evidence.

Its hilarious to watch what an extremely bad loser you are while trying to convince people to pay this unfair tax. It seems you will stoop to anything to try and distract from the weakness of your arguments.

meglome

psychward wrote: »

Its hilarious to watch what an extremely bad loser you are while trying to convince people to pay this unfair tax. It seems you will stoop to anything to try and distract from the weakness of your arguments.

Okay do you agree a real property tax is a sustainable tax on wealth?

southsiderosie

psychward wrote: »

What a scumbag attitude and an extremely low dirty cheap shot too . 95% of those on the dole were working for well over a decade until the real moochers in the ECB, banks and politics stole their jobs and opportunities. The moochers on the dole are those trying to steal even more money from the people which they have already paid tax on. The real dole is in Leinster House, the Senate, the banks and the state boards where Enda is paid more than President Obama. The real moochers are also whereever a retired scumbag is to be found on an inflation busting pension while those on disability etc have their meagre incomes cut. Then of course you have a long line of moochers working in RTE , the farmers dole etc. And you have the nerve to call people crying out for work moochers ? People with your attitude are one symptom of whats wrong with this country.

psychward wrote: »

you're a troublemaker who should go write for the tabloids which nobody is buying . The whole system of governance is corrupt and not above board and everyone knows it apart from you who have your head stuck where the sun doesn't shine .

psychward wrote: »

Its hilarious to watch what an extremely bad loser you are while trying to convince people to pay this unfair tax. It seems you will stoop to anything to try and distract from the weakness of your arguments.

MOD NOTE:

These kinds of posts are neither welcome nor appropriate.

Don't post in this thread again.

meglome

Steven81 wrote: »

Will be good to see if the government releases figures showing were the money they have received is being spent in local areas and not just given to our friends in Europe.

It's not being given to our friends in Europe. The troika are giving us the 15 billion a year we overspend and they are also giving us the money to pay the bondholders etc. So even if we never paid another bond etc we'd still need to borrow up to 15 billion from the Troika. I've been asking people for months supporting the campaign not to pay how we fund country and all I get is a smokescreen of nonsense.

slimjimmc

For anyone who is of the opinion that your personal data in the ESB or anywhere else is guaranteed to be securely locked away from the prying eyes of the tax collector I suggest you brace yourself before reading paragraph 8b of the Data Protection Act 1988.

8.—Any restrictions in this Act on the disclosure of personal data do not apply if the disclosure is—
:
:
(b) required for the purpose of preventing, detecting or investigating offences, apprehending or prosecuting offenders or assessing or collecting any tax, duty or other moneys owed or payable to the State, a local authority or a health board, in any case in which the application of those restrictions would be likely to prejudice any of the matters aforesaid,

It doesn't mean they've cart-blanche access, just that they can get it if other methods cant.

zumi

This is the protest in the Galway City Hall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1t_Ck0tq7c&feature=related

BlaasForRafa

zumi wrote: »

This is the protest in the Galway City Hall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1t_Ck0tq7c&feature=related

looks like the usual bunch of hard lefties that always turn up at these things. They probably got sick of of the Corrib Gas protest at this stage.

zumi

zumi wrote: »

This is the protest in the Galway City Hall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1t_Ck0tq7c&feature=related

Doesn't look like there were too many people there who would even be liable for the household charge. Except of course the Gardai who have to put up with that kind of crap.