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We should hang our heads in shame.

135

Comments

  • #62
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    100 years is a centenary.

    No, it's 300 years now, thanks to the new Centenary Tax introduced in the last budget.


  • #63
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    _Gawd_ wrote: »
    The reason people are not up in arms is because they still have access to their dole money. Once that tries up, there will be chaos. Nobody in this country has any principles nor do they care about how the economy works - all they want to know is if their freebies will still be coming so that they can buy their pack of ciggies and 6 Dutch Gold.
    Well you must be including yourself in there so.


  • #64
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    California Man wrote: »
    Only four years before The Easter Rising anniversary, and here we are after losing our economic sovereignty, and not a single protest..

    Our Prime Minister keeps saying "We will pay our way". But it's not our debt Enda; it's the debt of speculators and gamblers that took massive positions that failed. German and French bond holders etc.

    So we just sit here and moan, do sweet feck all about it. The Frech would be up in arms. Our grandchildren will still be paying off this unsustainable debt for years to come.

    James Connelly and Padraig Pearce would be turning in their graves. I'm really not sure many here understand that thousands of Irish men and women lost their lives for the freedom and independence of Ireland. The cosy world we live in today, and it's hard to imagine, I guess.

    A leading executive in Goldman Sachs resigned this week saying the firm is as toxic and destuctive as ever. A pure shame the way the world is heading. And this week, we learn, the CEO of Bank of Ireland Richie Boucher, was paid €623k last year. Boucher was a senior member of the bank during the boom years, so is partly responsible for the mess. Yet no protests this week.

    At least in Iceland the trial of former Icelandic Prime Minister, Geir Haarde, has now begun, on charges of negligence over the 2008 financial crisis.

    Do you think Bertie Ahern would ever face trail? Not a chance..

    We should hang our heads in shame.

    In my best Bull McCabe voice.............

    "Go back to America yank"


  • #65
    Toby Take a Bow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Toby Take a Bow


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    What has that got to do with the economic reality your country finds itself in? 1916 rising is just a historic moment in Irish history. It isn't going to get you out of the hole you find yourselves in.

    James Connolly would be a nightmare in this day and age. I don't think many on here would approve of a Marxist Socialist.

    I think the point might have been that people who organised a revolution to overthrow foreign rulers might not look particularly fondly on a time when we gave up our 'sovereign' status. Of course, the OP neglects that we always strove for outside influence and rule. Having said that, James Connolly was one of the few people to argue that overthrowing British imperialism would be pointless if we just had the same type of people - but Irish - ruling us.
    Show Time wrote: »
    Easter Rising was a failure kid. It was hard working Corkmen who booted the English out a few years later so they are the folks turning in their graves now.

    Some people argue that 1916 made a public willing to accept the idea of independence. No idea how popular that view is nowadays, though.
    _Gawd_ wrote: »
    The reason people are not up in arms is because they still have access to their dole money. Once that tries up, there will be chaos. Nobody in this country has any principles nor do they care about how the economy works - all they want to know is if their freebies will still be coming so that they can buy their pack of ciggies and 6 Dutch Gold.

    But as people have said constantly throughout this thread, people have been protesting. There are numerous small protests and a couple of really, really big ones since the recession hit. I've attended lots of them, both when I was working and when I had access to my dole money. Your point is moot.


  • #66
    paddyandy
    Site Banned Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭paddyandy


    O.P. The Collapse of the Banks and property market etc. could be viewed as the result of the widespread problem in Ireland of bending rules breaking laws and ignoring warnings plus greed in Irish Society .Follow the story and see our symptoms clearly illustrated .They are all there .


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  • #67
    jetsonx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,330 ✭✭✭jetsonx


    In a survey carried out last week, 20 per cent of emigrants said they would still vote for Fianna Fail. (Yes, there are people leaving the country because of FF). There is something unbelievably dysfunctional about that.

    If Ireland was a person, he or she would have some serious psychological issues.


  • #68
    homerjay2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    protesting and shooting guns at people wont bring back the 120billion that we have blown as a nation.

    putting bertie in jail while it would be great and make us all feel better, wont change the fact that we now have a social and inadequate health service that costs us 30billion a year. yes we have a huge banking debt, but that is a banking debt thats a once (we all hope) in 100 years event. our budget deficit sees us have a banking crises every 4 or 5 years, depending on the figure you believe.

    nobody forced people to buy houses worth 1million, driving up the prices of others, that nobody could afford. nobody forced people to buy mercs and BMW X5s that they couldnt afford to pay back. bankers and developers didnt drive up the price of housing, demand did. then the demand ran our and we were left with 50 billion worth of over priced property unsold.

    while its great to blame somebody else and alot of it is justified, as the late brian lenihan said " we all partied". and for every person thats struggling to make ends meat on the social welfare at the moment, theres many many people who are having good lifestyles on the back of the tax payer.

    keeping up with the jones is how i would describe what happened.


  • #69
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,510 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    Meh! I hate those "we're all collectively guilty" threads, as though every single one of us had had a hand in shagging the economy. I didn't own banks or bank shares, I didn't borrow to anything like excess, I always lived within my means, I never voted for Fianna Fail (or the Blueshirts, either), I warned anyone who would listen that the bubble would burst sooner or later, so what have I to be ashamed of? There are very many people in Ireland who are just as innocent of any wrongdoing or mistakes. But we are all suffering.:mad:

    It's not our heads we need to hang in shame, but the cnuts who caused this whole mess - by the balls!:rolleyes::rolleyes:


  • #70
    I am pie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭I am pie


    Unless you're sorely lacking in the most basic notion of context you'll have noticed that things are at lot worse in Athens than in Dublin. Athens has been the focus on any prolonged protests, i don't see any other protests in Europe to the extent that the OP is fantasising about?

    Any protests in Portugal or Spain? None to speak of really. Some sporadic 'indignados' but no grand social(ist) movements sweeping the elite from power If anything both of the Iberian governments have moved a little to the right post election, doing so with an electoral mandate.

    Why would Ireland be different ? Until we see large scale public sector cutbacks (i'm calling for these, but this is what is happening in Athens) to the extent that the minimum wage is cut to 500e per month and a lecturer looses 30% of their already dimishing salary, then maybe we'd see some activism at street level. Until then it's just pub talk, wishy washy misty eyed sh7te which doesn't really correspond to the extreme social drivers which need to be present to stimulate large scale social unrest.

    All i hear on here is 'it's not fair, someone should do something'.


  • #71
    Continuity Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭Continuity Wolfe Tone


    Speak for yourself, I've been out protesting and campaigning.


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  • #72
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    I am pie wrote: »
    ...maybe we'd see some activism at street level.Until then it's just pub talk , wishy washy misty eyed sh7te which doesn't really correspond to the extreme social drivers which need to be present to stimulate large scale social unrest.

    All i hear on here is 'it's not fair, someone should do something'.

    So are you saying, you haven't seen activism on the street?
    As for "social unrest" - we have that. You just need to watch the news and/or attend any number of ongoing protests!
    Just because we are not out on the streets rioting like other countries, don't mean we are ALL sitting on our asses, staying silent and/or not up out making noise to be heard!


  • #73
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    What has that got to do with the economic reality your country finds itself in? 1916 rising is just a historic moment in Irish history. It isn't going to get you out of the hole you find yourselves in.

    James Connolly would be a nightmare in this day and age. I don't think many on here would approve of a Marxist Socialist.

    Or an "Ulster" "Unionist". Out of touch doesn't even cover your mob.


  • #74
    Voodoo_rasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 521 ✭✭✭Voodoo_rasher


    "..because most of us don't truly know what's going on."

    aye, a great many of us still choose to hypnotise ourselves to comprehension of Ireland's plight by opting for the mindnumbing Six-One bulletin for enlightenment..Little wonder then.

    Wonder did the participants of the 1916 uprising forsee that we would become as this: tir gan teanga is tir gan anam.


  • #75
    I am pie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭I am pie


    Biggins wrote: »
    So are you saying, you haven't seen activism on the street?
    As for "social unrest" - we have that. You just need to watch the news and/or attend any number of ongoing protests!
    Just because we are not out on the streets rioting like other countries, don't mean we are ALL sitting on our asses, staying silent and/or not up out making noise to be heard!

    Small minority, nothing of any substantial threat to the state. Most European countries with a debt crisis would see similar.

    The reality is for the greater percentage of joe public nothing really bad has happened yet. It may yet happen, but right now the cuts imposed in Greece are in a completely different universe to those we've seen in Ireland.

    If people think a 100e household charge is something to take to the streets to they should consider the impact of 40 % public sector wage cuts and a whole new class of people unable to buy food in Athens. We we start to see people unable to shop in supermarkets and for farmers to willing to sell there food direct and for almost 0% margin, then we have a serious crisis.

    Until then, protests will remain a minority event with limited support on the ground and even more limited support at the polls.


  • #76
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Continuity Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Speak for yourself, I've been out protesting and campaigning.

    Continuity Wolfe Tone

    :D


  • #77
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    I am pie wrote: »
    The reality is for the greater percentage of joe public nothing really bad has happened yet.

    Say what!
    I guess you missed the increases in heating and gas prices, the car costs rising, the business transport costs rising, the health care problems, the newly invented taxes, and on and on...
    I am pie wrote: »
    ...Until then, protests will remain a minority event with limited support on the ground and even more limited support at the polls.

    The 1916 action was a VERY minority event of a idealistic active few - guess how that turned out!


  • #78
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    until the public get their head screwed on politically and stop chasing the socialist parties, I for one am happy to have europe manage us, we have a proven track record of being unable to do it ourselves


  • #79
    I am pie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭I am pie


    Biggins wrote: »
    Say what!
    I guess you missed the increases in heating and gas prices, the car costs rising, the business transport costs rising, the health care problems, the newly invented taxes, and on and on...


    The 1916 action was a VERY minority event of a idealistic active few - guess how that turned out!

    I didn't miss them, however your are still seemingly oblivious to the fact that these increases completely pale into insignificance when compared the cuts in Greece, the only country where there has been widespread social upheaval. Cause and effect. At this stage this surely must be fairly obvious?

    Are you going to be able to point to another European country with similar social upheaval as Greece or are you going to bang the same drum without any concept of severity and / or context?


  • #80
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    I am pie wrote: »
    I didn't miss them, however your are still seemingly oblivious to the fact that these increases completely pale into insignificance when compared the cuts in Greece, the only country where there has been widespread social upheaval. Cause and effect. At this stage this surely must be fairly obvious?

    Are you going to be able to point to another European country with similar social upheaval as Greece or are you going to bang the same drum without any concept of severity and / or context?

    Maybe when our kids start to fall over in their classrooms from hunger, maybe then we will get the upheaval you seem to want like Greece.
    I'm sorry - but I do not see "social unrest" as defined just by the actions of Greece - a country by the way YOU brought up.

    The fact is, there is many protests regarding many areas.
    Not everyone is out marching - in fact I would espouse that everyone not do so to be honest.
    We need (if we like it or not - for our own sake and screw the TD's) to keep working.
    Many have and still do, protest when they can, to a cause that they consider important and also do so when they can.
    Until we can invent designer protests to suit every individual in the state, the majority of us that actually are protesting, will make use of existing ones which encompass a number of areas and/or large single issues.

    ...And we ARE just doing that, when a lot of us can!

    Sorry if we are not rioting.
    Actually... I'm not!


  • #81
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,062 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    I have nothing holding me here, i can leave whenever i want


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  • #82
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    I am pie wrote: »
    I didn't miss them, however your are still seemingly oblivious to the fact that these increases completely pale into insignificance when compared the cuts in Greece, the only country where there has been widespread social upheaval. Cause and effect. At this stage this surely must be fairly obvious?

    Are you going to be able to point to another European country with similar social upheaval as Greece or are you going to bang the same drum without any concept of severity and / or context?

    Just because things aren't as bad here as they are in Greece does not mean everything is rosy in dear auld Ireland.

    I have no idea what exactly you classify wide spread social upheavel as, For me it doesn't just mean rioting and big protests. Enforced emmigration, people losing their homes, increased suicide rates, and so forth count as social upheavel.


  • #83
    Continuity Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭Continuity Wolfe Tone


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    What has that got to do with the economic reality your country finds itself in? 1916 rising is just a historic moment in Irish history. It isn't going to get you out of the hole you find yourselves in.
    LOL!

    You, a loyalist, are wondering why people are holding a seminal event in history up as significant and relevant, holding up the sacrifice of patriots as something we should keep in mind? You, one of the "No Surrender", ""Still under siege" relics whose entire identity is based on events which happened hundreds of years ago, you, one the Lundy decrying, effigy burning "Ulster patriots"? The center of your "identity" is an annual festival of bigotry each July which commemorates a centuries old battle for God's sake!

    Are you really wondering why Irish people feel that the sacrifice of the Easter rebels is something which is relevant today? Seriously?

    Or were you, as I suspect you were, out of sheer bitterness and traditional loyalist insecurity just trying to get the kicks into those Irish heroes? Without that foundation your ilk have nothing to stand on.

    James Connolly would be a nightmare in this day and age. I don't think many on here would approve of a Marxist Socialist.

    I think what is happening now is Connollys worst nightmare.

    "If you remove the English army to-morrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs. England would still rule you to your ruin, even while your lips offered hypocritical homage at the shrine of that Freedom whose cause you had betrayed. Nationalism without Socialism – without a reorganisation of society on the basis of a broader and more developed form of that common property which underlay the social structure of Ancient Erin - is only national recreancy. It would be tantamount to a public declaration that our oppressors had so far succeeded in inoculating us with their perverted conceptions of justice and morality that we had finally decided to accept those conceptions as our own, and no longer needed an alien army to force them upon us. As a Socialist I am prepared to do all one man can do to achieve for our motherland her rightful heritage – independence; but if you ask me to abate one jot or tittle of the claims of social justice, in order to conciliate the privileged classes, then I must decline." - James Connolly

    Far from being a nightmare, men and women like Connolly is what Ireland needs now more than ever.

    Indeed.


  • #84
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Ellis Dee wrote: »
    Meh! I hate those "we're all collectively guilty" threads
    No doubt started by FF voters much of the time.


  • #85
    tiktock7aclock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24 ✭tiktock7aclock


    Continuity Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    LOL!

    You, a loyalist, are wondering why people are holding a seminal event in history up as significant and relevant, holding up the sacrifice of patriots as something we should keep in mind? You, one of the "No Surrender", ""Still under siege" relics whose entire identity is based on events which happened hundreds of years ago, you, one the Lundy decrying, effigy burning "Ulster patriots"? The center of your "identity" is an annual festival of bigotry each July which commemorates a centuries old battle for God's sake!

    Are you really wondering why Irish people feel that the sacrifice of the Easter rebels is something which is relevant today? Seriously?

    Or were you, as I suspect you were, out of sheer bitterness and traditional loyalist insecurity just trying to get the kicks into those Irish heroes? Without that foundation your ilk have nothing to stand on.




    I think what is happening now is Connollys worst nightmare.

    "If you remove the English army to-morrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs. England would still rule you to your ruin, even while your lips offered hypocritical homage at the shrine of that Freedom whose cause you had betrayed. Nationalism without Socialism – without a reorganisation of society on the basis of a broader and more developed form of that common property which underlay the social structure of Ancient Erin - is only national recreancy. It would be tantamount to a public declaration that our oppressors had so far succeeded in inoculating us with their perverted conceptions of justice and morality that we had finally decided to accept those conceptions as our own, and no longer needed an alien army to force them upon us. As a Socialist I am prepared to do all one man can do to achieve for our motherland her rightful heritage – independence; but if you ask me to abate one jot or tittle of the claims of social justice, in order to conciliate the privileged classes, then I must decline." - James Connolly

    Far from being a nightmare, men and women like Connolly is what Ireland needs now more than ever.

    Indeed.

    He just admitted a statement of fact. The Rising has nothing to do with the mess we currently face in this country. No need to insult somebody because of their identity. If you think NI history is compised of one event, you seriously underestimate the North.

    They have an identity that is very much seperate to the rest of the UK, one which has had issues in the past, but that was as a result of bitter conflict between the provisional and real IRA Terrorists of the 70's and 80's.

    These guys were scum, and I say that as an Irishman. Forget Connolly, we don't live in those protectionist times anymore. Ireland can't just stop interacting with the world by choice anymore. Those were the Devalera days. Long gone.


  • #86
    BASHIR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 554 ✭✭✭BASHIR


    Fighting Irish wrote: »
    I have nothing holding me here, i can leave whenever i want

    You know there's a 1000€ leaving town tax :eek:


  • #87
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,510 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    After some of the guff in this thread, I felt I needed to cleanse my mind a bit by re-reading James Connolly's "The Legacy" (The Dying Socialist to his Son). Some things never change.:rolleyes:

    http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1914/05/thelegcy.htm



    "The past?” Aye, boy, the method’s past, the deed is still the same,
    And robbery is robbery, yet though cloaked in gentler name.
    Our means of life are still usurped, the rich man still is lord,
    And prayers and cries for justice still meet one reply – the sword –
    Though hypocrites for rich men’s gold may tell us we are free,
    And oft excel in speech and print our vaunted liberty,
    But freedom lies not in a name, and he who lacks for bread
    Must have that bread tho’ he should give his soul for it instead.
    And we, who live by Labour, know that while they rule we must
    Sell freedom, brain and limb to win for us and ours a crust.
    The robbers made our fathers slaves then chained them to the soil,
    For a little larger chain – a wage – we must change our toil.
    But open force gave way to fraud but force again behind
    Prepares to strike if fraud should fail to keep men deaf and blind.
    Our mothers see their children’s limbs they fondled as they grew
    And doted on, caught up to make for rich men profits new,
    Whilst strong men die for lack of work and cries of misery swell
    And women’s souls in city streets creep shuddering to Hell.
    These things belong not to the past but to the present day
    And they shall last till in our wrath we sweep them all away."

    Especially the last underlined and bolded bit is still very true. If the people go onto the streets to the extent that it begins to matter, the rulers and their lackeys will very quickly show their real face and those who take them on had better be prepared for a long and hard slog.


  • #88
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Dudess wrote: »
    No doubt started by FF voters much of the time.

    All trying to engineer the big FF come-back.


  • #89
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    California Man wrote: »
    We should hang our heads in shame.

    Go hang your own head in shame to be honest.

    Getting really tired of internet morons telling me I am supposed to feel bad about things.

    Misery loves company OP, good to see you sending out mass invites to the ****ing pity party.


  • #90
    Continuity Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭Continuity Wolfe Tone


    tiktock7aclock wrote: »
    He just admitted a statement of fact. The Rising has nothing to do with the mess we currently face in this country. No need to insult somebody because of their identity. If you think NI history is compised of one event, you seriously underestimate the North.

    They have an identity that is very much seperate to the rest of the UK, one which has had issues in the past, but that was as a result of bitter conflict between the provisional and real IRA Terrorists of the 70's and 80's.

    These guys were scum, and I say that as an Irishman. Forget Connolly, we don't live in those protectionist times anymore. Ireland can't just stop interacting with the world by choice anymore. Those were the Devalera days. Long gone.

    So Connolly was a protectionist like De Valera and the troubles consisted of a fight in the 70's and 80's between the provos and the RIRA.

    Alright then.

    In the same breath you "stand up" for loyalism (ah, they only had a few issues like, nothing Gusty and friends couldn't sort out) and condemn republicans as scum (don't recall even mentioning any republicans other than those of 1916, who is talking about them? Loyalists were doing all the stuff I mention LONG before the IRA came along). "Northern Ireland" history only consists of one event? I never said that, in fact I mentioned more than one as you may have noticed, siege of Derry for example. Anyone familiar with the rhetoric of Unionist politicians would know that compromisers were often decried as "Lundys", traitors. Historical events hold great significance and relevance for Unionists, its a bit odd that a loyalist wouldn't cop that an event like 1916 holds great significance for most Irish people.

    You say no need to insult someone because of their "identity" yet go on to insult the republican community by calling them "scum".

    You are quite the bundle of hypocrisy.


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  • #91
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    I have posted this Pat Condell video before.. it is worth watching if you are genuinely interested in this thread, he hits the nail squarely on the head

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6M8an_XKL8


This discussion has been closed.
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