What planet is Noonan living on?

tayto lover · 21-01-2012 02:39PM

alejandro1977 wrote: »

They're all as bad as each other? Not very constructive is it?

You can't complain when that's your attitude.

Good God of course I can complain. I'm a taxpayer who believes they are both useless. F.G.'s current policies are the old F.F. policies too so they are joined at the hip.

Yahew · 21-01-2012 02:40PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Ah God save him the poor fellow. I am sure he misses them so much and is wondering if they have a crust to eat in those foreign lands. So sad for him. He hasn't a penny to keep them here and might have to trade in some of his bonds.

Noonan is an entitled to be as wistful as the next man if 3 of his children ( and all their children; his grandchildren) are in far away countries - that's 60% of em. The fact that it is voluntary does not make the separation any less from his point of view, and - in fact - given that they left during the boom times it would appear this form of emigration is permanent not temporary. Which might not be the case for the aChusha, beal bocht, thousands are sailing brigade. If separation is so painful there, despite the £40 ticket to London and Skype, then it will no doubt be temporary.

the OP is a disgrace. On his other thread ( in AH) he basically put everybody on ignore who disagreed with him. The whole thing ranks of rabble rousing thanks whoring.

tayto lover · 21-01-2012 02:47PM

Yahew wrote: »

Noonan is an entitled to be as wistful as the next man if 3 of his children ( and all their children; his grandchildren) are in far away countries - that's 60% of em. The fact that it is voluntary does not make the separation any less from his point of view, and - in fact - given that they left during the boom times it would appear this form of emigration is permanent not temporary. Which might not be the case for the aChusha, beal bocht, thousands are sailing brigade. If separation is so painful there, despite the £40 ticket to London and Skype, then it will no doubt be temporary.

the OP is a disgrace. On his other thread ( in AH) he basically put everybody on ignore who disagreed with him. The whole thing ransk of rabble rousing thanks whoring.

He's an inconsiderate prat to make little of our emigration for work. A motor-mouth of the highest order just like he was in the McCole case. He tried to back out and obviously got Gilroy to try and get him out of trouble too.

Yahew · 21-01-2012 02:51PM

tayto lover wrote: »

He's an inconsiderate prat to make little of our emigration for work. A motor-mouth of the highest order ....

He didn't in fact do that, except for the perfectly normal use of the phrase "a lot" as opposed to some, neither implying a majority in Irish-English. And what is "our" emigration to work - what does that mean?

If some Irish people have to go from Mayo to Bristol, rather than Mayo to Dublin it is no big deal. Getting back is just as easy. Or stay in Ireland - on higher benefits than England or most of the world - and wait.

steelcityblues · 21-01-2012 02:55PM

alejandro1977 wrote: »

They're all as bad as each other? Not very constructive is it?

You can't complain when that's your attitude.

They are. Pre election promises used to trick a gullible populace into putting them into power. I'm sure some senior FF people were secretly impressed about how FG/Lab pulled that off.

Emigration of younger people - especially educated younger people - in every second generation works out nicely for FF/FG/Lab. Otherwise, all three would not have continued to be so dominant in recent decades.

Noonan has not had to change career since the early 80s, and it showed the other day.

Yahew · 21-01-2012 02:59PM

steelcityblues wrote: »

They are. Pre election promises used to trick a gullible populace into putting them into power. I'm sure some senior FF people were secretly impressed about how FG/Lab pulled that off.

Emigration of younger people - especially educated younger people - in every second generation works out nicely for FF/FG/Lab. Otherwise, all three would not have continued to be so dominant in recent decades.

Noonan has not had to change career since the early 80s, and it showed the other day.

immigration pretty much reversed in the 90's taken back all involuntary emigrants from the 80's. They all voted for the boom.

Of course there is only so much choice in Ireland, but it is a centre right country. People wanted tax cuts.

steelcityblues · 21-01-2012 03:01PM

Yahew wrote: »

immigration pretty much reversed in the 90's taken back all involuntary emigrants from the 80's. They all voted for the boom.

Of course there is only so much choice in Ireland, but it is a centre right country. People wanted tax cuts.

Maybe, but why don't we have an ex-pat vote like the United States?

Leads one to believe that the old guard fear younger voters.

Yahew · 21-01-2012 03:02PM

steelcityblues wrote: »

Maybe, but why don't we have an ex-pat vote like the United States?

Leads one to believe that the old guard fear younger voters.

People in the US who dont pay taxes shouldnt get the vote. Otherwise they would get to vote twice. The only exception should be people away on government business.

steelcityblues · 21-01-2012 03:06PM

Yahew wrote: »

People in the US who dont pay taxes shouldnt get the vote. Otherwise they would get to vote twice. The only exception should be people away on government business.

Sorry, but I think that is a very elitist position to take. What makes people working for government get the privilege over an ordinary raised US citizen?

Majority of immigrants move due to economic pressure, not to go on a travel spree.

dsmythy · 21-01-2012 03:20PM

Biggins wrote: »

Noonan: Young emigrants ‘not driven away by unemployment’

http://www.thejournal.ie/noonan-young-emigrants-not-driven-away-by-unemployment-331911-Jan2012/?new_comment=1#comment-222541

Is the man deluded?
I've seen some stupid statements in my time - this is up there with the daftest of them!

Ah the journal, that bastion of neutral reporting of the news

They are openly hostile to parties against their agenda. Can't say I'm surprised they tried make something off this. I am disappointed at national newspapers for doing the same though.

Manach · 21-01-2012 03:22PM

The only news source that is unbiased is of course the one which agrees with my own humble opinions. :rolleyes:

dsmythy · 21-01-2012 03:30PM

Manach wrote: »

The only news source that is unbiased is of course the one which agrees with my own humble opinions. :rolleyes:

When they selectively quote it's annoying. Otherwise they can report as they wish.

hallelujajordan · 21-01-2012 06:06PM

Some sensible, balanced reporting on this issue in todays Irish Times

THERE IS no contradiction whatsoever in maintaining both that young people are mostly being driven against their will by unemployment to the emigrant ship, and that, for some, emigration is, as Minister for Finance Michael Noonan has put it, “a free choice of lifestyle”. A charge of complacency or insensitivity, in the face of what, for most, is an agonising choice, might fairly be laid against the Minister had he only spoken on Thursday of the latter. But he did not.

Nevertheless, Fianna Fáil’s street-fighter-in-chief Willie O’Dea insisted on an immediate apology for “insulting remarks”. “I was disgusted,” he said, “to hear Michael Noonan describe emigration as a ‘free choice of lifestyle’.” Editorialists sounded off, and genuinely heartbroken families of emigrants were rounded up to denounce the Minister. Sinn Féin’s Pádraig Mac Lochlainn said it was outrageous that Mr Noonan had even mentioned lifestyle choice while talking about emigration.

Politics and spin. Half-truths woven from half-quotes, that the public will easily see through. And Mr Noonan has a broad back and thick skin, scarcely needing our words of comfort. But there is an important issue at stake here about understanding the truth of the emigrant experience, one that both Mr O’Dea and Mr MacLochlainn appear not only to want to deny, but even to suppress in the name of political correctness.

That truth is that emigration for some is, and always has been, in good times and bad, a positive choice. Mr Noonan spoke truthfully of his own not-unusual family situation – three of his grown-up children, living outside Ireland by choice. “It’s not being driven by unemployment at home, it’s being driven by a desire to see another part of the world and live there,” he said.

And the reality of “voluntary” departures has another dimension to it. Historically, it might seem paradoxical, albeit driven out by unemployment and poverty it was often the brightest and best who left first, often precisely those who would have taken the few jobs going around. And the drain on the society left behind was all the more for their departure. Now what perhaps has changed most is that this leaving generation, for the first time, had no expectation that emigration would be its lot, and they now leave with fainter hope of ever returning.

What drives emigration is a complex mix of circumstances, the personal, political, economic... To address the challenges, and the real cost it imposes on our society, it is important to understand and debate that complexity. Uncomfortable truths and all.

Sand · 22-01-2012 02:20PM

The problem with Noonans comments is that they are a misdirection. There has always been and always will be a certain level of positive emigration - people leaving for extended working holidays, travel the world or simply because they enjoy a particular culture or country and want to live there. There was a certain level of emigration throughout the Celtic Tiger, though much reduced and offset by historically unheard of levels of immigration.

The issue with emigration right now is that there has been a significant rise in forced emigration. Where people are leaving because they cannot find work in Ireland. Where older people - not students out for an adventure - are emigrating. So when ministers are confronted with questions around the emigration issue its at best dishonest to try chat about voluntary emigration. Nothing has changed in the regard of voluntary emigration - its forced emigration thats the issue. His comments that emigration is voluntary in the case of his children is another truism - of course the Minister of Finances kids could get a job in Ireland if they wished.

Noonan - or more specifically the DoF - of course doesnt want to talk about the rise in emigration between 2006 and 2011 and the cause for it. The rise is explained by economic and fiscal failure, and any discussion around economic and fiscal failure will find its way back to the DoFs door. So the DoF prefers to discuss truisms like "Some people emigrate for the adventure" rather than dwell on the real question.

As some have questioned, why does a smart operator like Noonan play along with the DoF agenda? Because hes a smart operator - he wasnt directly involved in the decisions between 2006 and 2011 so he could round on the DoF, slam it and its terrible record and win the plaudits in the media. However, hed burn all bridges with the DoF and the civil servants would begin leaking embarrassing information and calling up their reporter friends with tips on how to go after Noonan. Noonan is very much the junior partner in his relationship with the DoF, just like every MoF before him with the potential exception of McCreevy - who is conicidentally the most hated political figure in the Irish media.

I thought Noonans comment about training up Irish emigrants so they could get good jobs abroad was very telling. No actual plan to develop the Irish economy, instead we should export human capital abroad at Irish taxpayers expense. As much as we are in the era of skype and cheap airtravel we are no longer in the era of money being sent back home by emigrants so the Irish economy gets zero payoff from having trained up a person who is working in someone elses economy.

HavingCrack · 22-01-2012 02:52PM

Yahew wrote: »

People in the US who dont pay taxes shouldnt get the vote. Otherwise they would get to vote twice. The only exception should be people away on government business.

Technically all US citizens pay tax on their earnings in foreign countries to the IRS in addition to income tax in the country they live in.

Since they pay taxes they expect a vote which is fair enough. Now I have little doubt that tax evasion is rampant but that's another story.

HavingCrack · 22-01-2012 02:54PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Here you go, this post will explain it:

A painfully accurate post.

hallelujajordan · 22-01-2012 05:06PM

Sand wrote: »

The problem with Noonans comments is that they are a misdirection. There has always been and always will be a certain level of positive emigration - people leaving for extended working holidays, travel the world or simply because they enjoy a particular culture or country and want to live there. There was a certain level of emigration throughout the Celtic Tiger, though much reduced and offset by historically unheard of levels of immigration.

The issue with emigration right now is that there has been a significant rise in forced emigration. Where people are leaving because they cannot find work in Ireland. Where older people - not students out for an adventure - are emigrating. So when ministers are confronted with questions around the emigration issue its at best dishonest to try chat about voluntary emigration. Nothing has changed in the regard of voluntary emigration - its forced emigration thats the issue. His comments that emigration is voluntary in the case of his children is another truism - of course the Minister of Finances kids could get a job in Ireland if they wished.

Noonan - or more specifically the DoF - of course doesnt want to talk about the rise in emigration between 2006 and 2011 and the cause for it. The rise is explained by economic and fiscal failure, and any discussion around economic and fiscal failure will find its way back to the DoFs door. So the DoF prefers to discuss truisms like "Some people emigrate for the adventure" rather than dwell on the real question.

I think you are being unfair on Noonan here . . Had he just spoken about voluntary emigration I would agree with you but he didn't . . I've listened to the full exchange a couple of times now and I actually think he gave a very balanced and sensible answer to the question . . I don't think he towed the DoF line and I don't think he was making an attempt to not talk about the rise in forced emigration. In fact, he specifically addressed the issue and even used the words 'forced emigration' . . He spoke about the collapse of the building industry and how that has driven many people to have to emigrate . .

Your observations about the Civil Servants pulling the strings and the Minister towing the line are probably right... I just don't think this is a very good example of it ..

juan.kerr · 22-01-2012 05:11PM

Biggins wrote: »

Noonan: Young emigrants ‘not driven away by unemployment’

Is the man deluded?
I've seen some stupid statements in my time - this is up there with the daftest of them!

Why do we still have immigrants coming or returning to Ireland? Emigration and immigration isn't only down to money and unemployment.

Sand · 22-01-2012 06:54PM

@hallelujajordan

I think you are being unfair on Noonan here . . Had he just spoken about voluntary emigration I would agree with you but he didn't . . I've listened to the full exchange a couple of times now and I actually think he gave a very balanced and sensible answer to the question . . I don't think he towed the DoF line

I dont think Im being unfair on Noonan - as I say, I believe hes being directed as to what to say should certain topics come up. The point about people always wanting to emigrate for adventure is known - its a misdirection from the real question. Noonans not a fool - all politicians when asked a question try to get to the answer by the longest possible route in the hope the meandering into truisms and rhetoric will hide the unpleasant truth.

Noonan just stepped onto some landmines here when he was apparently quoted out of context. The question is why was he even talking about people emigrating for adventure? People know there is a "natural" rate of emigration which sits under the actual. Why is Noonan talking about it? Because hes trying to "balance" it against the reality - that tens of thousands of people (Irish and "New" Irish alike) are voting with their feet, being driven to seek work abroad due to the failures of the DoFs economic and fiscal policies over the past 10 years.

Yahew · 22-01-2012 06:58PM

Sand wrote: »

@hallelujajordan

I dont think Im being unfair on Noonan - as I say, I believe hes being directed as to what to say should certain topics come up. The point about people always wanting to emigrate for adventure is known - its a misdirection from the real question. Noonans not a fool - all politicians when asked a question try to get to the answer by the longest possible route in the hope the meandering into truisms and rhetoric will hide the unpleasant truth.

Noonan just stepped onto some landmines here when he was apparently quoted out of context. The question is why was he even talking about people emigrating for adventure? People know there is a "natural" rate of emigration which sits under the actual. Why is Noonan talking about it? Because hes trying to "balance" it against the reality - that tens of thousands of people (Irish and "New" Irish alike) are voting with their feet, being driven to seek work abroad due to the failures of the DoFs economic and fiscal policies over the past 10 years.

Surely the "New Irish" going home is a good thing, if the Irish leaving is a bad thing.

( I never heard that argument against immigration - the cost on the home countries).

hallelujajordan · 22-01-2012 07:47PM

Sand wrote: »

@hallelujajordan

I dont think Im being unfair on Noonan - as I say, I believe hes being directed as to what to say should certain topics come up. The point about people always wanting to emigrate for adventure is known - its a misdirection from the real question. Noonans not a fool - all politicians when asked a question try to get to the answer by the longest possible route in the hope the meandering into truisms and rhetoric will hide the unpleasant truth.

Noonan just stepped onto some landmines here when he was apparently quoted out of context. The question is why was he even talking about people emigrating for adventure? People know there is a "natural" rate of emigration which sits under the actual. Why is Noonan talking about it? Because hes trying to "balance" it against the reality - that tens of thousands of people (Irish and "New" Irish alike) are voting with their feet, being driven to seek work abroad due to the failures of the DoFs economic and fiscal policies over the past 10 years.

I disagree . . it's only a misdirection if he fails to answer the question or if he deliberately glosses over the facts. . and tries to answer a different question to the one he was asked. He did neither . .

It's also important to consider the question he was asked . . He wasn't asked specifically about the increase in forced emigration since 2006 . . . If he had been asked that question then I could probably agree with you . . But he was actually asked "What is your overall attitude to young people here who rather than putting on the green jersey are putting on the Australian jersey in cases" . . . Surely it's reasonable to respond to a question about his 'overall attitude' with a balanced response that considers both voluntary and forced emigration ?

the groutch · 23-01-2012 12:12PM

I do sorta agree with Noonan.
There is no such thing as forced emigration.
There might be personal circumstances that help someone in making the decision to emigrate, but at the end of the day they have the freedom to stay in the country or leave, nobody is handcuffing them and forcing them onto the planes.

mandrake04 · 23-01-2012 02:21PM

jank wrote: »

As mandrake said only 3000 actually emigrated to Australia last year.

To be fair of the other 25000+ you could split the difference and call it Forced Holidaying.

Not sure if it has the same ring to it though.

later12 · 17-03-2012 03:05AM

I don't want to start a new thread on this, because the discussion to date has been so extensive and this should all be put in context.

So it appears that Michael Noonan may have been closer to portraying the reality of the situation than has been suggested in this thread.

From the Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0317/1224313479162.html

A MAJORITY of those who emigrated from Ireland in the past few years left the country out of choice and did not feel they were forced to do so, according to a major survey of attitudes among recent emigrants.

The survey, conducted by Ipsos MRBI for The Irish Times, found that 59 per cent of emigrants left out of choice while 41 per cent said they were forced to emigrate.

Another important finding was that 72 per cent of those who have left the country intend to return to Ireland to live at some stage.

The findings appear to back the contention of Minister for Finance Michael Noonan that emigration is a lifestyle choice for many who have left the country in recent times. The Minister was widely criticised for making the comment in January.

The survey was conducted through telephone interviews with a cross-section of emigrants in terms of gender, age, place of origin in Ireland and destination abroad. The people interviewed were Irish nationals who had left the country since 2008 as emigrants.

Rather worryingly...

The majority of emigrants had some third-level qualifications: 25 per cent had a third-level certificate or diploma, 42 per cent had a primary degree, 16 per cent had a master’s degree and 2 per cent a PhD. Just 15 per cent of those who left had just a second-level education.

liammur · 17-03-2012 02:05PM

later12 wrote: »

I don't want to start a new thread on this, because the discussion to date has been so extensive and this should all be put in context.

So it appears that Michael Noonan may have been closer to portraying the reality of the situation than has been suggested in this thread.

From the Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0317/1224313479162.html

1 word of caution might be that the poll included those who left Ireland in 2008 and 2009, which may have been a slightly less pressed cohort of emigrants than are currently migrating into foreign economies.

Rather worryingly...

No real surprise. There is a lot of anger on these boards. People will blame anyone and anything for their own personal problems.

The fact is, many people will leave this country for many reasons. High taxes, e.g €660 to tax a 2 litre car, regeneration as your new neighbours, stealth taxes, poor health care, unemployment, bailing out the politicians expenses and pensions etc.

bedrock#1 · 17-03-2012 02:25PM

liammur wrote: »

No real surprise. There is a lot of anger on these boards. People will blame anyone and anything for their own personal problems.

The fact is, many people will leave this country for many reasons. High taxes, e.g €660 to tax a 2 litre car, regeneration as your new neighbours, stealth taxes, poor health care, unemployment, bailing out the politicians expenses and pensions etc.

Have not just listed the effects of the recession? Is that not what the OP was getting at? Seems like you've just validated his argument .....

liammur · 17-03-2012 02:40PM

bedrock#1 wrote: »

Have not just listed the effects of the recession? Is that not what the OP was getting at? Seems like you've just validated his argument .....

Exactly, it's a lifestyle choice. People believe they will have a better life in other countries, so Noonan wasn't all wrong.

later12 · 17-03-2012 05:52PM

I think these were the two most interesting graphics from the IT/MRBI survey

I think this poll comes with two possible warnings. The first being any possible misleading distribution the respondents with regard to year of emigration between 2008-2012. Respondents who left in 2008 may well have been more likely to have done so as a lifestyle choice than those leaving four years later.

The second being the fact that respondents were selected from amongst the pool of the pollsters' friends and contacts, which may distort the sample in terms of educational background, region, age bracket, class, and so on.

femur61 · 17-03-2012 06:35PM

later12 wrote: »

I think these were the two most interesting graphics from the IT/MRBI survey

I think this poll comes with two possible warnings. The first being any possible misleading distribution the respondents with regard to year of emigration between 2008-2012. Respondents who left in 2008 may well have been more likely to have done so as a lifestyle choice than those leaving four years later.

The second being the fact that respondents were selected from amongst the pool of the pollsters' friends and contacts, which may distort the sample in terms of educational background, region, age bracket, class, and so on.

Many young are leaving now not just because they have no jobs but because all their friends have left. Not just a brain drain but a social drain as well. This is the first year in years we are going abroad this summer. I couldn't bear to spend my holidays here with many town centres full of boarded shops. Too depressing.

One reason I'd want to leave (of many) is the country is still ruled by parish pump politics. Golden handshakes to the PS is another.

We will not to able to fund the PS wages or their pensions if this carries on. If the private sector are leaving at the rate their leaving there is going to a massive hole in tax intake and who will fund wages in PS, schools, no new childrens hospital etc.

nuac · 17-03-2012 09:30PM

Amazing statement by MN - I think the world economy would have to improve dramatically to have any effect here

What planet is Noonan living on?

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