What planet is Noonan living on?

Biggins

Noonan: Young emigrants ‘not driven away by unemployment’

MICHAEL NOONAN HAS said that most emigration by young Irish people is a “free choice of lifestyle” and played down the impact of the country’s unemployment rate on people moving abroad.

“It’s a small island. A lot of people want to get off the island,” the Finance Minister told the media at a briefing on the fifth quarterly review of Ireland’s bailout programme by the Troika of the European Commission, ECB and IMF.
He pointed to the experience of his own family saying that three of his five children are living abroad and that in their case it was a lifestyle choice to move away from Ireland.

The country’s unemployment rate is currently 14.3 per cent with over 180,000 classified as long-term claimants on the Live Register. A recent survey found that four-in-ten people saw no future for themselves in Ireland.
But Noonan said that unemployment was not driving emigration: “It’s not being driven by unemployment at home, it’s being driven by a desire to see another part of the world and live there.”

Figures published last December showed that over 76,000 people had left the country in the year to April 2011 – an increase of nearly 17 per cent – with over half of those being Irish.

“There are always young people coming and going from Ireland,” Noonan also said while adding that the country needed to ensure that people leaving were well enough educated to seek employment abroad.
“What we have to make sure is that our young people have the best possible education, right up to third level,” he said.

http://www.thejournal.ie/noonan-young-emigrants-not-driven-away-by-unemployment-331911-Jan2012/?new_comment=1#comment-222541

Is the man deluded?
I've seen some stupid statements in my time - this is up there with the daftest of them!

MagicMarker

Oh it's a ''lifestyle'' choice, people aren't moving because of a lack of jobs, they're moving because overall it's shít here, much much better. :rolleyes:

steelcityblues

A real 'let them eat cake' moment on our hands here.

wes

Thats an astonishing comment to make. The man seems to be deluded.

Biggins

Expect some SERIOUS back grovelling within an hour from Dublin!

Dirk Gently

By lifestyle choice does he mean stay an have no future and no job opportunities or go and leave your family and take a chance on surviving on the other side of the world? anyone and everyone I know has gone by necessity rather than choice. I know a few who are even illegal in other countries because it's still a better option than coming home. I know people who have come home and regret not chancing staying on illegal in another country because there is nothing here for them when they got home. Many have come home after a year or two hoping things were better but instead found jobs have been replaced by jobsbridge and cant believe the lack of options to make a living here. Great that Noonan can use his own scientific poll of his own 3 family members to represent the nation accurately.

Same old safety valve for Irish governments, let the youth emigrate. Fantastic use of tax payers money making sure they're educated enough to contribute economically to other economies once they leave college. Good to see the blueshirts following in the arrogant delusional footsteps of their sister party Fianna Fail.

V_Moth

So he is actually saying the Irish State is spending millions/billions/squadrillions to educate kids who will contribute no future taxes? And not even thinking of doing everything to ensure they remain (voluntarily) in Ireland?

Makes sense...

I suppose it comes from the old mindset that emigration gets rid of all the "non-conformists" who could possibly change things and upset the apple cart for those at the top.

Noffles

Haaaaaagh... the stupid deluded cnut

steelcityblues

V_Moth wrote: »

So he is actually saying the Irish State is spending millions/billions/squadrillions to educate kids who will contribute no future taxes? And not even thinking of doing everything to ensure they remain (voluntarily) in Ireland?

Makes sense...

I suppose it comes from the old mindset that emigration gets rid of all the "non-conformists" who could possibly change things and upset the apple cart for those at the top.

That is exactly why we still have the same 'big three' parties (FF/FG/LAB) today, as the brighter minds leave early.

force eleven

Well he said all talk of a second bailout was 'ludicrous' last week and yet yesterday he left the door open. He was always a far better opposition politician than one in government.In power he often showed poor political judgement - remember the hep C blood transfusion scandal of a few years ago? And his abject failure as leader of Fine Gael

patwicklow

What a statement to make what planet is this bog man on!
just goes to show whats running this country to the ground.
just gets worse by the day with this shower in power were will it end.
and get are lovely Ireland back

RichardAnd

This really shows how out of touch the ruling classes are with young people.

Dannyboy83

Didn't Mary Hannafin come out with this exact statement last year?

CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN!

dlofnep

What a pretentious ****. Many of my friends have moved to Australia because they spent months and months searching for work in Ireland, and couldn't find it. Most of them were in trades, which have been hit hard.

Dannyboy83

Sorry, it was Mary Coughlan

http://www.globalirish.ie/2010/thats-what-young-people-are-entitled-to-do-tanaiste-on-emigration/
Equally we have a lot of people – young people- who have decided they will go to other parts of the world to gain experience and I think the type of emigration that we have -
Questioner: But your government was supposed to have ended that, the whole cycle of Irish having to leave Ireland.
It’s the type of people that have left have gone on the basis that – some of them, fine, they want to enjoy themselves. That’s what young people are entitled to do.

phil1nj

Different party, different TD, same sentiment. Sigh



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2009/0110/1231515452848.html

irishh_bob

Biggins wrote: »

Expect some SERIOUS back grovelling within an hour from Dublin!

NO , thier wont be any retractions , the young male vote has no political muscle in this country , no one sees them as vulnerable in anyway shape or form

Biggins

irishh_bob wrote: »

NO , thier wont be any retractions , the young male vote has no political muscle in this country , no one sees them as vulnerable in anyway shape or form

But the parents of those that left, do?

32,000 approx alone last year, their offspring heading to England!

The numbers emigrating to Britain alone soared by 56pc as over 16,000 people travelled across the Irish Sea to find work in the UK 2010/11 tax year.

http://www.sovereignindependent.com/?p=32195

HellFireClub

I can see that one sticking lol, "where were you last night?", "I was on Planet Noonan!"

Tipp Man

I wonder are the people who have emigrated as up in arms about this as the people who are still in Ireland??

Seems to me he is right - the lads n lasses who have gone to Australia for instance are nearly all having a ball and doing well for themselves. Given the option, in my circle of friends and acquintances anyway, very few of them have any inclination of coming back to Ireland to live. Same goes for a few lads i know in Canada

RichardAnd

Tipp Man wrote: »

I wonder are the people who have emigrated as up in arms about this as the people who are still in Ireland??

Seems to me he is right - the lads n lasses who have gone to Australia for instance are nearly all having a ball and doing well for themselves. Given the option, in my circle of friends and acquintances anyway, very few of them have any inclination of coming back to Ireland to live. Same goes for a few lads i know in Canada

Perhaps but that doesn't change the fact that Noonan has made an outrageously inaccurate statement.

Many older people in this country seem to think that all the young get up to is socialising and looking for a good time. Noonan's remark demonstrates this wonderfully.

Biggins

Tipp Man wrote: »

I wonder are the people who have emigrated as up in arms about this as the people who are still in Ireland??

Seems to me he is right - the lads n lasses who have gone to Australia for instance are nearly all having a ball and doing well for themselves. Given the option, in my circle of friends and acquintances anyway, very few of them have any inclination of coming back to Ireland to live. Same goes for a few lads i know in Canada

An investigation by the Irish Independent has found a 50pc surge in the number of emigrants heading for Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Britain, the US and Germany — up from 46,000 when we carried out a similar survey a year ago.

The numbers emigrating to Britain alone soared by 56pc as over 16,000 people travelled across the Irish Sea to find work in the UK 2010/11 tax year.

Figures obtained from the UK Department of Work and Pensions show the flow continued throughout 2011 with over 300 Irish people a week applying for national insurance numbers to allow them work there, the vast majority of whom were aged 18 to 34.

That department noted this surge was because “the Irish economy has recently experienced one of the sharpest recessions in the eurozone”.

http://www.sovereignindependent.com/?p=32195

Tipp Man

RichardAnd wrote: »

Many older people in this country seem to think that all the young get up to is socialising and looking for a good time. Noonan's remark demonstrates this wonderfully.

I don't think it demonstrates it at all. Where i think he is inaccurate is when he says "it is not being driven by unemployment" Clearly some of it is

Also, have you been to OZ or USA or UK where young Irish have descended on mass?? There is plenty of socialising done let me tell you. (and before everybody goes nuts - there is nothing wrong with that. That's a part of what being young and travelling is about)

Thousands of Irish have done very well for themselves in UK, USA and OZ and good luck to them - I'm sure thousands more will do equally well in these countries in the future

Biggins

Update:

Noonan’s emigration comments branded ‘a disgrace’ by opposition

MICHAEL NOONAN HAS been heavily criticised for his comments related to the amount of young people emigrating from Ireland earlier today with Sinn Féin saying his comments were “a disgrace”.

At a press conference reacting the Troika’s fifth review of the bailout programme, Noonan commented that emigration of young people “is a free choice of lifestyle” and said “there are always young people coming and going from Ireland.”

Noonan played down the belief that Ireland’s unemployment of over 14 per cent was contributing to young people leaving the country but his comments have been criticised by opposition parties.

Sinn Féin’s finance spokesperson Pearse Doherty said that Noonan’s comments were “deeply insulting” in light of figures which showed the majority of people leaving Ireland are now Irish, directly as a result of the economic situation.

“Michael Noonan’s comments are a disgrace. Six thousand people are leaving Ireland every month, the overwhelming majority seeking work in America, Australia, and elsewhere,” Doherty said.

“The overwhelming majority have been forced to leave because of the lack of employment and the belief they have no future in this country.”
Fianna Fáil’s spokesperson on finance, Michael McGrath told TheJournal.ie he disagreed with Noonan’s comments noting that economic data compared with emigration data showed that the number of people leaving Ireland was related to the economic downturn.

“In great majority of cases young people emigrate because they don’t see an opportunity at home. In the last two or three years it’s forced emigration,” he said.
“Anyone who witnessed scenes at airports around country at the end of Christmas would realise very quickly that this wasn’t a lifestyle choice. These people want to get on with their lives and pursue opportunities and they can’t do it in Ireland.”

It is not the first time a senior government minister has come in for criticism for comments about emigration.
In February 2010, then Tánaiste Mary Coughlan told BBC television that some emigration was “not a bad thing” as young people were leaving to “gain experience”.

At the time she was accused of “losing the plot” by Fine Gael TD Damien English. English did not return a request for comment on Noonan’s remarks at the time of publication.

http://www.thejournal.ie/noonans-emigration-comments-branded-a-disgrace-by-opposition-332065-Jan2012/

Tipp Man

Biggins wrote: »

Update:

Noonan’s emigration comments branded ‘a disgrace’ by opposition



http://www.thejournal.ie/noonans-emigration-comments-branded-a-disgrace-by-opposition-332065-Jan2012/

Welll if SF are saying it then Noonan must be an absolute disgrace:rolleyes:

Biggins

Tipp Man wrote: »

Welll if SF are saying it then Noonan must be an absolute disgrace:rolleyes:

You know that saying "A rose by any other name is still a rose" ?

Well sometimes an idiot by any other name is still an idiot - despite who says it?

Tipp Man

Biggins wrote: »

http://www.sovereignindependent.com/?p=32195

Are those quotes meant to prove something?

I'm not denying a lot of people (young in particular) are leaving - I just don't think Noonan has said anything too dramatic to warrant you to post this in Politics and Afterhours (where of course it is going to get a absolute onslaught - was that not enough for you??)

Biggins

Tipp Man wrote: »

Are those quotes meant to prove something?

I'm not denying a lot of people (young in particular) are leaving - I just don't think Noonan has said anything too dramatic to warrant you to post this in Politics and Afterhours (where of course it is going to get a absolute onslaught - was that not enough for you??)

The exposing of such a clear possible error of judgement should never be done in half measures.
To do so I feel, allows such silly people to slip away with their possible daftness - only to possibly continue in the same vein?

Apologies to you if my exposing his possible daftness to as much people as possible, offends you.

P.S.
Some of the quotes were in fact to aid you in showing actual numbers that have left.

V_Moth

Tipp Man wrote: »

Are those quotes meant to prove something?

I'm not denying a lot of people (young in particular) are leaving - I just don't think Noonan has said anything too dramatic to warrant you to post this in Politics and Afterhours (where of course it is going to get a absolute onslaught - was that not enough for you??)

I think you are failing to see the point being made by some posters here regarding emigration - it is not good. Unfortunately Noonan's make it out that he regards it as "something the young people do".

Ultimately he (or his PR handlers) just doesn't seem to realise that exporting Ireland's most educated people now and in the future will do absolutely nothing to improve the countries chances of economic recovery.

Dannyboy83

Tipp Man wrote: »

I just don't think Noonan has said anything too dramatic to warrant you to post this in Politics and Afterhours

Noonan wrote:

Mass emigration is not being driven by unemployment at home, it’s being driven by a desire to see another part of the world and live there.”

Does that clarify it?

"A man who lies to himself, and believes his own lies, becomes unable to recognize truth, either in himself or in anyone else, and he ends up losing respect for himself and for others.
— Fyodor Dostoevsky

conorhal

Wow. It took FF 14yrs to reach the levels of arrogance, delusion and denial that FG seem to have managed to acheive in a mere 10 months!..... /slow hand clap.

I presume that we can now expect the usual statement on RTE from Noonan about 'comments taken out of context' etc....

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Tipp Man

V_Moth wrote: »

I think you are failing to see the point being made by some posters here regarding emigration - it is not good. Unfortunately Noonan's make it out that he regards it as "something the young people do".

Ultimately he (or his PR handlers) just doesn't seem to realise that exporting Ireland's most educated people now and in the future will do absolutely nothing to improve the countries chances of economic recovery.

Funny the same thing was said in the 1980's (when 2 of my sisters emigrated) when emigration was also huge and yet the 1990's was probably the best period ever for the Irish economy. Amazing

Regarding the "something the young people do" - lets be realistic here - of course it is. Even in the "good" times thousands of young and/or newly graduated Irish went travelling - for a while it was the thing to do after Uni, or after a couple of years work. It is most definately not a new phenomen.

the major difference now to say 5-10 ago is that there is much less options available now

Biggins

conorhal wrote: »

Wow. It took FF 14yrs to reach the levels of arrogance, delusion and denial that FG seem to have managed to acheive in a mere 10 months!..... /slow hand clap.

With an absolute, must be(?) record breaking amount of u-turns by them in less that a year?
(See my site: www.unitedpeople.ie for list)

conorhal wrote: »

I presume that we can now expect the usual statement on RTE from Noonan about 'comments taken out of context' etc....

If they mention it at all!
Seeing as others will, I suppose they will have to eventually.

Tipp Man

Biggins wrote: »

The exposing of such a clear possible error of judgement should never be done in half measures.
To do so I feel, allows such silly people to slip away with their possible daftness - only to possibly continue in the same vein?

Apologies to you if my exposing his possible daftness to as much people as possible, offends you.

P.S.
Some of the quotes were in fact to aid you in showing actual numbers that have left.

I know there are thousands leaving so no need for you to highlight it

Biggins

Tipp Man wrote: »

I know there are thousands leaving so no need for you to highlight it

You might know it and absolutely fair enough.
Others however might additionally be interested as to actual numbers.

Bloodly hell, you try to be helpful, give additional data and you get shot down for it!
Unreal!

This section likes to deal in accuracy - not just relying on generalisation most of the time.
If I can aid that - I try.
Pardon ruddy me!

tayto lover

What Noonan's statement does tell us is how far removed he and his likes are from the ordinary people of Ireland. In a country where people are supposed to be treated as equal statements like this show up the chasm that actually exists between the "haves" and the "have nots".
His children who left, not because they had to, would have no problem returning and getting everything handed to them from their rich daddy with his bond-holdings and his land and wealth. The ordinary emigrant would get it hard to muster the cost of a flight home for a funeral or a visit. I know that first-hand.
People should make a point of remembering that statement at the next election.
Meanwhile Noonan is purring like a spoilt cat after his Troika masters patted his back for victimising the same people he is now insulting.

folan

sounds like hes trying to save face

People dont leave Ireland cause we cant generate employment for them, its cause they want to see the world.

while this bs may work for his international plan, its definatly a massive kick in the teeth to all those who have been looking for jobs and have left in pure exasperation.

Tefral

I wrote him an email

Mr. Noonan,

I am writing to you to outline my disgust at your comments in the media that it is a “lifestyle choice” to move abroad and not actually for work.

I am a Limerick man, I grew up in the City from which you live, I was educated in Ardscoil Ris and then in Limerick IT. I graduated from Limerick IT in 2008 with a Degree in Quantity Surveying. I moved to Dublin to get work as Limerick didn’t have any openings for Quantity Surveyors at the time.

I spent 3.5 years working for a Company in Dublin (a year of this being on a 3 day week). I paid my numerous taxes into the economy and in the end I was given a simple choice by my Boss: move to the office in London or be let go. Instead of joining the dole queue I packed up my life and moved to London as there are no jobs I can do in Ireland.

I’m afraid to say you seem very out of touch with reality. I voted for Fine Gael in the last elections in the hope you and your party would stir things up and in particular I was hoping your very hard attitude would give us something to stand behind. However reading comments about moving on for a “lifestyle choice” is absurd.

I am over here in London using Skype to keep in touch with my family and my partner and everybody I know. I don’t want to be using my education for which the Irish paid for to be contributing to another country taxes. I’m over here putting down hours looking at ways I can make my relationships work. I spend a fortune trying to fly home as often as I can.

I am only one of many. I have looked into jobs at lower pay and all that, however there is a glass ceiling and a glass floor. All I get is “Why would I employ you when you will leave at the first opportunity to get a job in your degree discipline” I got a truck licence in the hope it would be a fall back; however I'm met with the above line. I had no choice but to move away, as bankers and incompetent politicians ruined my country – our country.

I have many friends who have gone as far as Australia and Canada to get work; they go over on Working Holiday Visas in the hope of getting “sponsored” and can start a life there. Many have to return to Ireland, but most if not all go back under another form of visa in the hope of spending just one more year working, because “There is nothing to go back to”. The working holiday visa is the cheapest way of getting there, many are not Holidaying at all contrary to your belief.

Fine Gael are doomed to failure if you do not pull your head out of the sand and realise it’s not a lifestyle choice, its NO CHOICE. Fianna Fail had their head in the sand and look where that got them.. very few were re-elected and in the end the EU made a scapegoat out of us. If you fall asleep at the wheel of a car, then you are more than likely going to get killed.

I would like a reply to this email from a fellow Limerick Person, but I don’t hold much hope with an attitude like that.

Regards,

Jonathan Cronin
(An Irish man abroad because I had NO Choice.)

jbkenn

I read this utterance from Mickey Noonan as news came through that my nephew who "lifestyle choiced" to the West Coast of the U.S.A has been taken seriously ill, his Mom is in Dublin airport awaiting the arrival of his Dad, who has been forced by lack of work to "lifestyle choice" to mainland Europe, so they can join up and fly to the U.K. to get a flight to the U.S. to be at their sons bedside.

All I can say Mickey, as one of your constituents, is, you have proven, if proof were ever needed, that you are nothing more than a jumped up County Councillor from Gouldavoher, with a mindset to match.

Sunnyisland

conorhal wrote: »

Wow. It took FF 14yrs to reach the levels of arrogance, delusion and denial that FG seem to have managed to acheive in a mere 10 months!..... /slow hand clap.

I presume that we can now expect the usual statement on RTE from Noonan about 'comments taken out of context' etc....[/QUOTE]



Michael noonan said on rte news that he was taken out of context and he said that some people leave Ireland etc etc .

D1stant

[QUOTE=
Michael noonan said on rte news that he was taken out of context etc .[/QUOTE]


Oh. thats ok then. Phew

Biggins

realies wrote: »

conorhal wrote: »

Wow. It took FF 14yrs to reach the levels of arrogance, delusion and denial that FG seem to have managed to acheive in a mere 10 months!..... /slow hand clap.

I presume that we can now expect the usual statement on RTE from Noonan about 'comments taken out of context' etc....

Michael noonan said on rte news that he was taken out of context and he said that some people leave Ireland etc etc .

D1stant wrote: »

Oh. thats ok then. Phew

Indeed, sure we can trust him!
Of course if there is a recording of the interview, no doubt he will ask for a copy and produce it.

Pride Fighter

He has form with this in the past. He was very cold to the victims of blood tainting in the mid 90's as minister for health. You'd think he'd learn his lesson.

Biggins

Pride Fighter wrote: »

He has form with this in the past. He was very cold to the victims of blood tainting in the mid 90's as minister for health. You'd think he'd learn his lesson.

Its not as if there isn't enough teachers around the Dail to teach him!

tayto lover

You just cannot hide arrogance, it always shines through in the end.
Noonan has it in spades.

Sierra Oscar

Very insensitive comment to make, although Noonan does have a tendency to be blunt with his opinions . . . he certainly does not shy away from letting them out of the bag!

Sand

Noonan gets his speaking points from the DoF civil servants. They told him to say emigration was motivated by a youthful desire, not by the failures of the DoFs policies. Much as they told Mary Coughlan the same thing. The common thread between Noonans and Coughlans equally derranged comments in that they were being advised on what to say by the civil service.

BlaasForRafa

Tipp Man wrote: »

Funny the same thing was said in the 1980's (when 2 of my sisters emigrated) when emigration was also huge and yet the 1990's was probably the best period ever for the Irish economy. Amazing

Rubbish, pure and utter rubbish. I assume that you are just taking the role of opposing for oppositions sake on this thread as what you are saying is factually incorrect. The 80's was a decade of MASSIVE unemployment and of massive emigration.

Through the 90's the economy improved and through that decade and the early to mid 2000's we had irish people immigrating back to this country because of the employment opportunities.

Now that massive unemployment is back we have massive emigration. It dosen't take a genius to figure out the link between the two but Noonan seems to be more concerned with spoofing bulls--t.

Liam Byrne

Michael Noonan wrote:

A lot of people want to get off the island,”

Yes we do. We want to go live in an ethical country where greed and lack of ethics and lack of common sense aren't rewarded.

****wit doesn't cover this. It was horrendous the time some FF ****head said it recently and it's horrendous now.

mandrake04

Tipp Man wrote: »

I wonder are the people who have emigrated as up in arms about this as the people who are still in Ireland??

Seems to me he is right - the lads n lasses who have gone to Australia for instance are nearly all having a ball and doing well for themselves. Given the option, in my circle of friends and acquintances anyway, very few of them have any inclination of coming back to Ireland to live. Same goes for a few lads i know in Canada

To be fair there its not that easy to actually stay in Oz once the Holiday visa runs out, sure there are huge figures of young Irish people (25000+) in Australia maybe a few thousand might qualify for sponsorship but the rest days are numbered.

2010/2011 was the mass exodus, 2012/2013 will be mass return.