Why do people in tornado alley build their houses out of timber ?

MadYaker · 15-03-2012 08:05PM

longhalloween wrote: »

I thought tornadoes, hurricanes and cyclones were the same thing, just depended where in the world they occur?

>insert facepalm pic here<

El Horseboxo · 15-03-2012 08:09PM

longhalloween wrote: »

MadYaker wrote: »

Tornadoes are completely different to hurricanes.

I thought tornadoes, hurricanes and cyclones were the same thing, just depended where in the world they occur?

Replace tornado with typhoon and you have that right.

df1985 · 15-03-2012 08:25PM

timber houses are lighter than concrete houses, simples. would you rather a plabk of would hitting you or a concrete block if your house comes down.

and no, in a tornado a concrete house wont stay standing. they rip everything from the ground.

Pottler · 15-03-2012 08:32PM

MadYaker wrote: »

Flying debris does as much damage as the tornadoes themselves. Nobodies house will still be standing after a flying bus hits it at 150mph.... Building homes that would be tornado proof would be ridiculously expensive and just not practical. It might be possible to make the walls resistant to small tornadoes but your house would still be gutted or completely destroyed by flying debris.

A house made of reinforced cast concrete wouldn't last 10 seconds if hit by even a medium sized tornado. Plenty of the worlds population are under constant threat of natural disaster. Were a bit detatched from it here but people just live with it. Most of california's population live on a fault line.

Just aint so. ICF houses can withstand tornadoes, earthquakes, extreme impacts, etc etc. I have a sneaky suspicion they keep on using wood because they are a tad dim. There best giggle is that they build an ickle wickle bit of the house out of reinforced concrete(that oddly they call their "tornado refuge" and use to hide in when the storms come.
They also tend to loudly exclaim "its just too damn dear to build the whole thing out of conncereete", and then go on to rebuild their stick house over and over again when the (blindingly predictable) tornadoes strike. If you lived in an area called "pis5ing it down with rain regularly alley", would you build your house out of bog roll?
I've had this row with lots of our american brethren but they just dont git it-"but we've always built that way" tends to be the arguement. BTW, I'm a builder. And ICF is insulated concrete formwork. And its pretty much indestructable. And it costs much the same as useing blocks. And no, they dont blow away.

rossie1977 · 15-03-2012 09:19PM

stupidusername wrote: »

why build your house in an area known to get tornadoes in the first place?

tornado alley encompasses a huge area of the usa, most of the people living there were born there and the odds on being in the middle of a tornado is probably tiny http://www.readyforanythingnow.com/disaster%20survival%20guide%20articles/Images/Wind%20Table.jpg

Logical Fallacy · 15-03-2012 09:51PM

Pottler wrote: »

Just aint so. ICF houses can withstand tornadoes, earthquakes, extreme impacts, etc etc. I have a sneaky suspicion they keep on using wood because they are a tad dim. There best giggle is that they build an ickle wickle bit of the house out of reinforced concrete(that oddly they call their "tornado refuge" and use to hide in when the storms come.
They also tend to loudly exclaim "its just too damn dear to build the whole thing out of conncereete", and then go on to rebuild their stick house over and over again when the (blindingly predictable) tornadoes strike. If you lived in an area called "pis5ing it down with rain regularly alley", would you build your house out of bog roll?
I've had this row with lots of our american brethren but they just dont git it-"but we've always built that way" tends to be the arguement. BTW, I'm a builder. And ICF is insulated concrete formwork. And its pretty much indestructable. And it costs much the same as useing blocks. And no, they dont blow away.

As far as i am aware an ICF house will withstand winds of up to about 200mph...many storms and tornados will have much stronger winds than this.

I believe the common method of protection from a tornado etc in an ICF house is to have one dedicated "strong room", designed to withstand great wind speeds?

As far as i am aware there is nothing that will withstand an F5 except for those special dome shaped houses...but F5's are very rare events.

Out of interest, how would you rate the cost and build time of an ICF house versus a normal get up???

Cantona's Collars · 15-03-2012 10:14PM

They could move here and live in houses built on flood plains & experience being underwater on average twice a year.

Here's what an f5 can do,some of the places destroyed are built with bricks & mortar,they fared no better than timber homes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCwsg-cyZR8

Pottler · 15-03-2012 11:13PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

As far as i am aware an ICF house will withstand winds of up to about 200mph...many storms and tornados will have much stronger winds than this.

I believe the common method of protection from a tornado etc in an ICF house is to have one dedicated "strong room", designed to withstand great wind speeds?

As far as i am aware there is nothing that will withstand an F5 except for those special dome shaped houses...but F5's are very rare events.

Out of interest, how would you rate the cost and build time of an ICF house versus a normal get up???

I'm a registered ICF installer, and an ICF can be constructed to withstand ANY force of wind. Standard ICF rebar/crete layer is 4" - that will withstand 200mph, step up to 8" with heavy rebar and you have created a bombshelter as well as a home. Go to 12" and you have an immovable object. Concrete is relatively cheap. As far as ICF goes, its the best form of construction possible(I do traditional masonry/timber frame and ICF. I have no idea why ANYBODY builds any extension, new build or commercial masonry property out of anything else. U values are amazing, speed is unreal, quality is simply the best. Its like broadband versus dial up. Funnily enough, it is largely the very wealthy who use this method of construction but with the timesaving(roof level in days not weeks/months, no heating bills and indestructable/impervious). In Canada, its the go-to construction. We built one in Portlaoise and on a day with -10 outside, we were warm with no heat on and no windows installed during construction. Just hasn't caught on here in a major way, but I have no idea why. You cannot compare bricks/blocks to ICF - ICF is one solid block of steel and concrete with no mortar lines or weak spots. If the roof is steel beam and tile effect cladding, let it blow all it wants, nothings going anywhere and nothing is gonna give either.

ProudDUB · 15-03-2012 11:42PM

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Plenty of 100 mph hurricanes hit Ireland & the worst that happens is a slate blows off.

No they don't. What makes a hurricane a hurricane in the first place is that the wind speeds are SUSTAINED winds at 150 mph for hours and hours at a time. That just doesn't happen here. It may blow like the dickens in spurts, but it is never the sustained, non stop crazy, insane wind speeds for hours and hours, that they experience in the US. That is what does the damage there. The hurricanes that hit Florida, the Gulf Coast & the Carolinas are are 500 mile wide monsters that move incredibly slow. When they make landfall, it takes hours for the front end of the storm to come on through. There is a lull when the eye hits. Then all hell breaks loose when the much, much more powerful back end hits for hours and hours more. That just does not happen here. I lived in the south eastern US for 18 years. I know what I am talking about.

It is also not just about the damage that wind gusts do, even though that makes the most fun to show on new reports. Most hurricane property damage and deaths come from storm surge, where the winds whip up sea levels to heights 10-20ft above normal. Water pressure is far, far stronger than wind gusts are. If that $hit hits your coastal holiday home at high tide, pushing all kinds of debris before it, you can kiss it goodbye, no matter what it is made off.

There are other factors at play too given the heat that areas like this experience. A lot of homes in New Orleans were under water after Hurricane Katrina. When the flood waters went down, they all looked to be structurally sound. They were, but they were also all covered in a toxic mold that grew like gangbusters in the heat and humidity there. It could never be eradicated safely. The houses all had to be condemmed and rebuilt as a result. That is much, much easier and cheaper to do if they are made from wood or vinyl siding than if they are made from bricks and motor, whether you are in tornado alley or hurricane zones.

firefly08 · 15-03-2012 11:58PM

^This. They have all kinds of disasters here in the US on a scale we just don't see in Ireland, and you'd be surprised how convenient the old wooden houses can be.

Last summer I spent a lot of time helping friends prepare for a controlled flood of the Missouri river. They had a number of houses on their land, and with one of them, they were able to literally jack it up like a car and put concrete blocks under it. Not so easy with a concrete house! You could walk around underneath the house, before the water came.

With that said, I do think concrete houses would fare better with a lot of the problems they have, such as sub-hurricane winds and golf-ball sized hail etc. But there's a big difference in cost, and it's a lot easier to make repairs as you go than to spend more up front.

uncle_sam_ie · 16-03-2012 12:08AM

What about an underground house with a timber façade house on top. Let the destruction blow over. Also, it would be cool in the summer and warm in the winter.

Logical Fallacy · 16-03-2012 12:10AM

Pottler wrote: »

I'm a registered ICF installer, and an ICF can be constructed to withstand ANY force of wind. Standard ICF rebar/crete layer is 4" - that will withstand 200mph, step up to 8" with heavy rebar and you have created a bombshelter as well as a home. Go to 12" and you have an immovable object. Concrete is relatively cheap. As far as ICF goes, its the best form of construction possible(I do traditional masonry/timber frame and ICF. I have no idea why ANYBODY builds any extension, new build or commercial masonry property out of anything else. U values are amazing, speed is unreal, quality is simply the best. Its like broadband versus dial up. Funnily enough, it is largely the very wealthy who use this method of construction but with the timesaving(roof level in days not weeks/months, no heating bills and indestructable/impervious). In Canada, its the go-to construction. We built one in Portlaoise and on a day with -10 outside, we were warm with no heat on and no windows installed during construction. Just hasn't caught on here in a major way, but I have no idea why. You cannot compare bricks/blocks to ICF - ICF is one solid block of steel and concrete with no mortar lines or weak spots. If the roof is steel beam and tile effect cladding, let it blow all it wants, nothings going anywhere and nothing is gonna give either.

Cheers for that man! I know what i'm building my house with.

dirtyden · 16-03-2012 12:11AM

Pottler wrote: »

I'm a registered ICF installer, and an ICF can be constructed to withstand ANY force of wind. Standard ICF rebar/crete layer is 4" - that will withstand 200mph, step up to 8" with heavy rebar and you have created a bombshelter as well as a home. Go to 12" and you have an immovable object. Concrete is relatively cheap. As far as ICF goes, its the best form of construction possible(I do traditional masonry/timber frame and ICF. I have no idea why ANYBODY builds any extension, new build or commercial masonry property out of anything else. U values are amazing, speed is unreal, quality is simply the best. Its like broadband versus dial up. Funnily enough, it is largely the very wealthy who use this method of construction but with the timesaving(roof level in days not weeks/months, no heating bills and indestructable/impervious). In Canada, its the go-to construction. We built one in Portlaoise and on a day with -10 outside, we were warm with no heat on and no windows installed during construction. Just hasn't caught on here in a major way, but I have no idea why. You cannot compare bricks/blocks to ICF - ICF is one solid block of steel and concrete with no mortar lines or weak spots. If the roof is steel beam and tile effect cladding, let it blow all it wants, nothings going anywhere and nothing is gonna give either.

Ah it is great to have your completely unbiased viewpoint.

uncle_sam_ie · 16-03-2012 12:13AM

firefly08 wrote: »

^This. They have all kinds of disasters here in the US on a scale we just don't see in Ireland, and you'd be surprised how convenient the old wooden houses can be.

Last summer I spent a lot of time helping friends prepare for a controlled flood of the Missouri river. They had a number of houses on their land, and with one of them, they were able to literally jack it up like a car and put concrete blocks under it. Not so easy with a concrete house! You could walk around underneath the house, before the water came.

With that said, I do think concrete houses would fare better with a lot of the problems they have, such as sub-hurricane winds and golf-ball sized hail etc. But there's a big difference in cost, and it's a lot easier to make repairs as you go than to spend more up front.

A wood house is also ideal if you live in an area prone to earthquakes. They tend to go with the flow.

joseph brand · 16-03-2012 12:14AM

Originally Posted by Rabidlamb
I'm not sure an extra 50% could do that much more damage.

o1s1n wrote: »

It would if it were carrying a bus.

Or a Fat American, holding a shovel.

Logical Fallacy · 16-03-2012 12:15AM

dirtyden wrote: »

Ah it is great to have your completely unbiased viewpoint.

Well, he also said he did tradition masonry and timber frame building as well so it doesn't matter to him what people do, he can still get paid.

Pottler · 16-03-2012 12:17AM

dirtyden wrote: »

Ah it is great to have your completely unbiased viewpoint.

nope- I had my house destroyed in the past by hurricane, roof torn off, devastated. Here in Ireland! Absolutely ruined me financially for a long time. I'm evangelical now on stronger construction. Anyway, take it how you like.

dirtyden · 16-03-2012 12:31AM

Pottler wrote: »

nope- I had my house destroyed in the past by hurricane, roof torn off, devastated. Here in Ireland! Absolutely ruined me financially for a long time. I'm evangelical now on stronger construction. Anyway, take it how you like.

But even building an ICT home you need windows a door and a roof. Unless you build a complete concrete shell it is not tornado proof. You cannot tornado proof an everyday home.

I take your point on being evangelical about safety though, and i take back any indicacation of a sales pitch I may have inferred.

Lando Griffin · 16-03-2012 12:46AM

Wooden houses my god I remember when just landed in the States in my cousins house and all the in laws were there, I had to go for a number two. It was right beside the kitchen and the acoustics it caused were horrifing. Never liked wooden houses.

Pottler · 16-03-2012 01:05AM

Lando Griffin wrote: »

Wooden houses my god I remember when just landed in the States in my cousins house and all the in laws were there, I had to go for a number two. It was right beside the kitchen and the acoustics it caused were horrifing. Never liked wooden houses.

Agreed-been in a lot of 300k+ timber houses that when you took a dump upstairs, the whole downstairs shared the experience. nasty:D

Pottler · 16-03-2012 01:13AM

dirtyden wrote: »

But even building an ICT home you need windows a door and a roof. Unless you build a complete concrete shell it is not tornado proof. You cannot tornado proof an everyday home.

I take your point on being evangelical about safety though, and i take back any indicacation of a sales pitch I may have inferred.

I agree, but if you use steel trusses bolted to the ICF wall(plate), nothing stirs. \on the red bit, our roof was torn off by hurricane force winds(shortly after we scrimped and scraped to build it-on the second time round, it was icf and steel trusses-totally solid and storm proof - was a sh1te time with two toddlers and a wife living in one habitable room. vowed never again.

southsiderosie · 16-03-2012 01:56AM

I grew up in the Midwest (at the edge of Tornado Alley), and I think there are two main reasons:

1. Many of the houses in these areas are quite old, and were built at the turn of the last century. My parents live in a wood-frame house that was built in the late 1800s.

2. Maybe someone else knows the answer to this, but I would imagine that building wood-framed houses is a) quite fast, and b) may require less skilled workers than an ICT house? The residential market for the last 15 years seems to have been built on the credo "the faster and cheaper, the better"...which is why a lot of "new" places are in terrible shape today.

Also, I don't think houses in these areas are cheap because they are tornado-prone. They are cheap because they are rural, and in many of these states, there is nothing there but hogs, soybeans, and corn. At least Montana had mountains.

El Horseboxo · 16-03-2012 02:32AM

Pottler wrote: »

MadYaker wrote: »

Flying debris does as much damage as the tornadoes themselves. Nobodies house will still be standing after a flying bus hits it at 150mph.... Building homes that would be tornado proof would be ridiculously expensive and just not practical. It might be possible to make the walls resistant to small tornadoes but your house would still be gutted or completely destroyed by flying debris.

A house made of reinforced cast concrete wouldn't last 10 seconds if hit by even a medium sized tornado. Plenty of the worlds population are under constant threat of natural disaster. Were a bit detatched from it here but people just live with it. Most of california's population live on a fault line.

Just aint so. ICF houses can withstand tornadoes, earthquakes, extreme impacts, etc etc. I have a sneaky suspicion they keep on using wood because they are a tad dim. There best giggle is that they build an ickle wickle bit of the house out of reinforced concrete(that oddly they call their "tornado refuge" and use to hide in when the storms come.
They also tend to loudly exclaim "its just too damn dear to build the whole thing out of conncereete", and then go on to rebuild their stick house over and over again when the (blindingly predictable) tornadoes strike. If you lived in an area called "pis5ing it down with rain regularly alley", would you build your house out of bog roll?
I've had this row with lots of our american brethren but they just dont git it-"but we've always built that way" tends to be the arguement. BTW, I'm a builder. And ICF is insulated concrete formwork. And its pretty much indestructable. And it costs much the same as useing blocks. And no, they dont blow away.

Nothing to do with being dim. It's cost vs risk. You seem to have posted that under the impression that people living in tornado prone areas rebuild their homes a few times each season. I lived for 14 years in Kansas and only ever seen 2 tornadoes while not actively looking for them and they were way out in open fields. Ask loads of old people in Texas, Kansas or Oklahoma, the top 3 states for tornadoes annually, if they ever seen a tornado and you may be surprised at how many will say yeah. Despite the damage they can do they are still rare when it comes to hitting populated areas. It's almost the same effect of hearing about a plane crash. Because it's so horrific you perceive an increased risk involved with living in tornado alley or flying. But in reality a tornado only hits a given area once in 5000 years on average. Also the biggest victims of tornadoes continuously are those in trailer parks. And they don't live in them as a lifestyle choice. They are simply not affording ICF houses.

MadYaker · 16-03-2012 10:34AM

If you build an ICF house and it gets hit by a tornado the walls would still be standing but the house would essentially be gutted. Windows, doors and roof, gone. However that is a lot better then having your house destroyed entirely.

Killer Wench · 18-03-2012 02:34PM

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Do they not learn the fable of the 3 little pigs as children ?.
Every year the same thing, carnage strewn everywhere, I'm going to the mid-west to become a brick salesman.
Yeeee hawww

Please note that this was a brick building:

http://www.wlky.com/r/30697859/detail.html

Killer Wench · 18-03-2012 02:36PM

stupidusername wrote: »

why build your house in an area known to get tornadoes in the first place?

Tornadoes are unpredictable in nature. I grew up in a valley which means that tornadoes were less likely to hit our area, but if one ever developed in the valley, it would create total devastation because it would essentially be limited to the area of the valley. Tornadoes are more likely to hit the midwest but they have been documented in places like Tacoma and Seattle, WA.

3ndahalfof6 · 18-03-2012 02:49PM

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

What about an underground house with a timber façade house on top. Let the destruction blow over. Also, it would be cool in the summer and warm in the winter.

I was thinking this, underground city its bound to save in the long run,

how to defeat it? stay the fook out of it.

Overheal · 18-03-2012 02:51PM

Pottler wrote: »

I'm a registered ICF installer, and an ICF can be constructed to withstand ANY force of wind. Standard ICF rebar/crete layer is 4" - that will withstand 200mph, step up to 8" with heavy rebar and you have created a bombshelter as well as a home. Go to 12" and you have an immovable object. Concrete is relatively cheap. As far as ICF goes, its the best form of construction possible(I do traditional masonry/timber frame and ICF. I have no idea why ANYBODY builds any extension, new build or commercial masonry property out of anything else. U values are amazing, speed is unreal, quality is simply the best. Its like broadband versus dial up. Funnily enough, it is largely the very wealthy who use this method of construction but with the timesaving(roof level in days not weeks/months, no heating bills and indestructable/impervious). In Canada, its the go-to construction. We built one in Portlaoise and on a day with -10 outside, we were warm with no heat on and no windows installed during construction. Just hasn't caught on here in a major way, but I have no idea why. You cannot compare bricks/blocks to ICF - ICF is one solid block of steel and concrete with no mortar lines or weak spots. If the roof is steel beam and tile effect cladding, let it blow all it wants, nothings going anywhere and nothing is gonna give either.

For a bit of a laugh, go build one of these houses of yours in tornado alley and when an EF5 comes your way, sit in the living room and knit a scarf. We can put the whole thing on youtube.

Killer Wench · 18-03-2012 02:57PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

I grew up in the Midwest (at the edge of Tornado Alley), and I think there are two main reasons:

1. Many of the houses in these areas are quite old, and were built at the turn of the last century. My parents live in a wood-frame house that was built in the late 1800s.

2. Maybe someone else knows the answer to this, but I would imagine that building wood-framed houses is a) quite fast, and b) may require less skilled workers than an ICT house? The residential market for the last 15 years seems to have been built on the credo "the faster and cheaper, the better"...which is why a lot of "new" places are in terrible shape today.

Also, I don't think houses in these areas are cheap because they are tornado-prone. They are cheap because they are rural, and in many of these states, there is nothing there but hogs, soybeans, and corn. At least Montana had mountains.

Yep, I'm in downstate Illinois where there have been several huge tornadoes to hit in the last ten years. I'm presently here visiting family.

It is currently 8:42am. The sun is out and the tempature is 61 degrees F (17 degrees C) and it is expected to reach 81 F (27 C) today. But, in the background, thunder is rolling in and we are expecting thunder/lightening storms for the day. I would not be surprised if we have a tornado watch later in the day.

I grew (well, most of my teens at least) up in a stucco house built in the late 1880s. My city is an old city established in 1827 (okay, old by American standards) that was first a mining community and then developed into a factory community. We are surrounded by corn and soybean fields. We have many older brick craftsman style homes and many old wooden homes built in the early 1900s.

Typical homes:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/126-N-Beard-St-Danville-IL-61832/80293217_zpid/

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1123-Sherman-St-Danville-IL-61832/80291988_zpid/

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/199-S-Henning-Rd-Danville-IL-61832/80285243_zpid/

Back then, people acquired land, then assembled help to build their homes, and began farming within the week. It wasn't grand affairs commissioned by wealthy aristocrats or housing communities built by landlords for the workers of their lands.

Killer Wench · 18-03-2012 03:03PM

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

What about an underground house with a timber façade house on top. Let the destruction blow over. Also, it would be cool in the summer and warm in the winter.

Uhm... we have that. They are called basements. They were constructed to be used as shelter during storms.

Why do people in tornado alley build their houses out of timber ?

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