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What is religion?

13

Comments

  • #62
    krudler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Dades wrote: »
    I must have received my atheist training in catholic school.

    I got mine at Hogwarts


  • #63
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    JonPierson: It mostly comes down to who Jesus is, and that Islam contradicts history in respect to Jesus' crucifixion. If the opportunity arises on the Islam forum, either I'll respond to a thread that deals with who Jesus is, or I'll create one.

    dead one: Islam claims that Christianity is wrong about Jesus, and I claim as a Christian that Islam is mistaken in respect to Jesus. There's no way one can really avoid that difference.

    krudler: I don't honestly see how Christianity is intolerant. Tolerance means agreeing to disagree with other positions. I'm happy to agree to disagree with anyone who is opposed to Christianity. Unless you're changing the definition of tolerance to mean that everyone should applaud what everyone else does (which is absurd), I don't see how that argument can make sense.


  • #64
    joseph brand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    Oh look, dead one is back. Better take him off ignore, he's got some valid points. :rolleyes:
    vomited up by dead one
    Atheism? Aren'tt atheist trained to hate other religions. Isn't it hatred.


  • #65
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    krudler wrote: »
    does anyone take anything you say seriously on here anymore?

    ?


  • #66
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    dead one wrote: »
    We all are human we should respect each other creeds and choices...

    ...Quran says
    Always speak the truth. [Quran 22:30]...

    ...Atheism? Aren'tt atheist trained to hate other religions. Isn't it hatred.

    Ooh hypocrisy, I love hypocrisy.

    Surely by deliberately misinterpreting the position of merely not believing you are not only being disrespectful but actively failing to follow your own creed?


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  • #67
    the culture of deference
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,145 ✭✭✭the culture of deference


    philologos wrote: »

    I acknowledge what God has done for me and what measures that He went through to bring me to know Him. I am thankful for that, so as a result, I praise Him, and I try to live for Him as best as I can and as much as a struggle that can be at times. I want to live as He wants me to not because that I am saved that way (I am only saved through the death and resurrection of Jesus), but because I love Him and I know that His ways are ultimately good. .

    Do you talk to god, or do you just imagine he speaks to you, or do you go to a church. To be honest people with your beliefs in nothing scare me.

    philologos wrote: »

    dead one: Islam claims that Christianity is wrong about Jesus, and I claim as a Christian that Islam is mistaken in respect to Jesus. There's no way one can really avoid that difference.

    Great, Islam was manufactured from christianity.


  • #68
    JonPierson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭JonPierson


    dead one wrote: »
    If you had born in Muslim family, You would think Christianity as lie.

    And there we have it, and from a Muslim!

    As atheists say, over and over again. Religion is not some sort of individual revealed truth, it is an accident of birth and what level of indoctrination is inflicted upon you during those vital few, formative years. The Jesuits believed that, if you got a child into your clutches for three or four years up to the age of 7, you had them for life.

    Every religionist truly believes that what they have been indoctrinated with is the only true truth. They reject all others, on the basis of what they have been taught, and with many, to them, valid reasons.

    The lack of rationality in religion means that the religionist is mentally incapable of applying the same 'logic', that tells them exactly why all religions, apart from their own, are just plain wrong, to their own religion.

    In fact, as far as every other religion but their own goes, religionists are actually atheists. They unfailingly reject the myths, legends and fictions in the various man-written books and oral traditions of the other 3,500-4,000 religions, faiths and belief systems in the world yet religiously, literally, believe the myths, legends and fictions in the various man-written books and oral traditions of their own.

    With respect to religionists who believe in the existence of only one god, atheists just believe in one less god than they do. With respect to religionists who believe in the existence of more than one god, atheists just believe in a few, or many, less gods than they do.

    When it comes to religious beliefs, logic and science, especially the second law of thermodynamics, fly out of the window. If it's not in the 'good book' (the book that is good because it says that it's good) and it conflicts with 'good book', in spite of all scientific evidence to the contrary, then it simply isn't true.

    Take, for example, creationism. Someone sits down and calculates, from texts written at different times by different people with different agendas and with exactly no knowledge of modern scientific evidence, that the world/universe is six thousand years old. You won't shift them. They have been indoctrinated to believe it and, like all other religionists, their indoctrination is reinforced, every time they go their places of worship, by the use of classic mind-control and hypnotic techniques. So, the world is 6,000 years old and no amount of scientific evidence will change that belief.

    On an unrelated matter, by the way, has anyone else heard about Göbekli Tepe in Turkey (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/mann-text)? It was discovered in 1994. It has been scientifically and conclusively dated at 11,000 to 12,000 years old. I think homo sapiens is a truly amazing species. It just keeps expanding its knowledge base, year-on-year and researching, and finding irrefutable scientific answers to, questions that used to be answered, and still are answered by religionists, by saying 'god(s) did it'.

    It is so wonderful, and I am so happy, not be constrained by hundreds or thousands of years old books written in ignorance. I simply can't imagine how it must be to be trapped in an irrational religious dogma and I am so grateful to my parents, and the relatively secular English society, for not indoctrinating me into a belief in the impossible and giving me a thirst for discovering real truths about my world and not having man-made, artificial truths constraining me.


  • #69
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    the culture of deference wrote: »
    Do you talk to god, or do you just imagine he speaks to you, or do you go to a church. To be honest people with your beliefs in nothing scare me.

    God speaks to us through His word in Scripture as far as I'm concerned. I haven't heard God audibly speak, I don't believe that it is impossible though. As a result of believing and trusting in Jesus, I am a part of a church community who meet to honour God, and encourage each other in the truth and in terms of reaching out to others who don't know Him.

    I don't see why I should scare you or anyone else. I'm a person who lives in society like everyone else. The major difference between me and most others is that I believe in Jesus and I want to live and speak for Him.

    If you're genuinely scared of me, that's simply a form of intolerance. I pose no threat to anyone.
    the culture of deference wrote: »
    Great, Islam was manufactured from christianity.

    What's your point?


  • #70
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    philologos wrote: »
    I am a part of a church community who meet [...]
    I thought you believed you weren't part of a religion. Genuine question -- as well as you, does everybody else at this "church community" believe they're not part of a religion either?


  • #71
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    philologos wrote: »
    dead one: Islam claims that Christianity is wrong about Jesus, and I claim as a Christian that Islam is mistaken in respect to Jesus. There's no way one can really avoid that difference.
    Hi philogos,
    See, Islam tells that Christianity is no more than a man-made conjecture and you know conjecture never avails against truth. Jesus Christ didn't write anything about himself, not a single passage in NT is of his own writing. The account of him is altogether the assignment of other people. The other people while writing about Jesus took help of conjecture that's what Islam tells. Now tell how is Islam wrong. Islam tells Jesus Christ was human prophet sent to children of Israel for their guidance. The reason for this is that, In last era, Roman government became utterly corrupt. Christ addressed against the bribery, crimes, demoralization, fraud and avarice of the Jew priests, and because of this they became his sworn enemy. You know a person who has habit of telling truth, the world doesn't like him. The world filled with hypocrisy.
    Dades wrote: »
    I must have received my atheist training in catholic school.
    I See. catholic schools, hives, the western bees, fake honey.
    Pickup the clue
    wonderfulname wrote: »
    Ooh hypocrisy, I love hypocrisy.
    Surely by deliberately misinterpreting the position of merely not believing you are not only being disrespectful but actively failing to follow your own creed?
    The two vultures which robed the world, hypocrisy and tyranny. You love hypocrisy. The real way to get rid of hypocrisy is to become permanent hypocrite. That's why Francis becon had said. Great hypocrite are the real atheists. I mean, suppose It is very difficult for me to follow Islam/christianity, I can't speak truth, I can't be pious, I can't leave my precious desires and in order to avoid accusation of hypocrisy why don't i become permanent hypocrite / atheist. I sure it is very difficult you wouldn't get my point.


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  • #72
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    robindch: Why don't you read my posts?
    philologos wrote: »
    I don't really define myself as "religious" though. I find that as a label, that doesn't particularly match who I am. It sounds Pharasaic to me. That religion is about a strict observance of rituals. My faith couldn't be any further from this. It is simply about trying to live in response to Jesus' saving death on the cross for me. I also wouldn't call myself "devout" or "pious", as I'm neither of those things. I'm simply a sinner saved by Jesus' death and resurrection.

    So, simply put, I find it better just to refer to myself as a Christian, rather than having a load of other connotations that I don't feel are the most accurate being added on in the process.

    dead one: That's the difference. You do disagree with Christianity as a Muslim. It's inherent to it. I'll probably get around to starting a thread on the Islam forum on this topic.


  • #73
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    JonPierson wrote: »
    Take, for example, creationism. Someone sits down and calculates, from texts written at different times by different people with different agendas and with exactly no knowledge of modern scientific evidence, that the world/universe is six thousand years old. You won't shift them. They have been indoctrinated to believe it and, like all other religionists, their indoctrination is reinforced, every time they go their places of worship, by the use of classic mind-control and hypnotic techniques. So, the world is 6,000 years old and no amount of scientific evidence will change that belief.
    Couldn't Creator have used evolution as an actor of creation?
    JonPierson wrote: »
    It is so wonderful, and I am so happy, not be constrained by hundreds or thousands of years old books written in ignorance. I simply can't imagine how it must be to be trapped in an irrational religious dogma and I am so grateful to my parents, and the relatively secular English society, for not indoctrinating me into a belief in the impossible and giving me a thirst for discovering real truths about my world and not having man-made, artificial truths constraining me.
    You are quite religious in your views as religious people are. What makes you so sure that you have not been in-doctrine by your secular society.


  • #74
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    philologos wrote: »
    dead one: That's the difference. You do disagree with Christianity as a Muslim. It's inherent to it. I'll probably get around to starting a thread on the Islam forum on this topic.
    I don't, Islam disagrees with Christianity and i am side of Islam because it is convincing to me. I don't disagree with Christianity as a Muslim but as human. See my mind/logic can't accept how could conjecture produce truth.


  • #75
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    edit: duplicate post -


  • #76
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    dead one wrote: »
    human are weak and disgusting. Little creatures who love to fight. You know they should be wiped out
    dead-one: I have no idea if you are seriously advocating genocide here, or whether you believe other people are, or could be, or should be.

    However, in those interpretations, that comment is out of order.

    Can you please clarify exactly what you mean, or delete your comment, or have it deleted for you.


  • #77
    Barr125
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭Barr125


    dead one wrote: »
    human are weak and disgusting. Little creatures who love to fight. You know they should be wiped out

    From this and other threads I've seen on the A&A from dead one, I can see him getting banned very soon, IMO anyway.


    On-topic, it depends on the version of religion. I boil every religion down to 2 types: ''personal religion'' and ''organised religion''. With P.R. I don't really have a problem with, it's personal and if they wish to delude themselves, fine. Where I do have a problem is organised religion, imposing their dogma on others from a young age, try to legislate 2000 year old rules made by/for Bronze Age farmers.

    However, to sort-of contradict my last point, religion is simply hope/fear. Hope that this sin't the only thing, that there is more. It's fear of death.


  • #78
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    dead one wrote: »
    Jesus Christ didn't write anything about himself, not a single passage in NT is of his own writing.

    Neither was a single passage in the Quran written by Mohammad, since he could not read nor write. This doesn't seem to bother most Muslims, why would it bother a Christian that Jesus didn't write anything himself (though he probably was literate, unlike Mohammad).?


  • #79
    JonPierson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭JonPierson


    dead one wrote: »
    Atheism? Aren'tt atheist trained to hate other religions. Isn't it hatred.
    dead one wrote: »
    Couldn't Creator have used evolution as an actor of creation?

    You are quite religious in your views as religious people are. What makes you so sure that you have not been in-doctrine by your secular society.

    Trained to hate other religions?!?!?!?!?!?

    The definition of atheism is: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

    I know of no training available for people who, as individuals, take a look around their beautiful world and work out for themselves, using evidence obtained using the scientific method, that, on the balance of probabilities, no external, invisible, supernatural entity was involved in its creation.

    It is only religionists who are trained.

    Every single creature on the planet is born an atheist. Nothing, and no human being when he or she is born, has a belief in the existence of any god. Left alone by religionists, but growing up with the knowledge of science, in my opinion no rational human being would be a religionist. Humanity, at least, the non-religious, is so bewilderingly advanced now that it is impossible to believe that anyone, left to their own devices and allowed to think for themselves without being indoctrinated by religion, would feel any need whatsoever to invent gods anymore.

    I know of no atheists who 'hate' religions. I despise what religious organisations do to human beings. I despise the fact that people, who would, without the virus of religion having infected them, be able to live rational, ethical lives under a moral code that does not force artificial differences, based on supernaturalism and superstition, cannot do so.

    And, mostly, I despise the fact that religions, around the world, have so much, in some cases, total, control of people's lives through either undue influence of, or total control of governments.

    People should be free to believe whatever they like without any interference by government or, for example, as happens in Ireland, government sponsored indoctrination by the religious in schools.

    As for my being 'religious', well that is, clearly, absurd. Religion is defined as the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. I do not so believe, obviously. It is simply not possible to be 'indoctrinated' by anything in a school in a secular society. Indoctrination needs mind-control and hypnotic techniques to be forced on the individual by a religion or philosophical group. This happens in states that are not secular. In states like Ireland, schools are state-sponsored to indoctrinate children with religion. In communist states (which are absolutely not secular, but atheist), children are indoctrinated not to believe in gods. Both systems are abhorrent. In secular states, it is for individual parents to decide whether or not to have their children indoctrinated (sadly) either by religious supernaturalism and superstition or, well, nothing, which allows children to make their own minds up as they grow and mature, experiencing life as they go.


  • #80
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    robindch wrote: »
    dead-one: I have no idea if you are seriously advocating genocide here, or whether you believe other people are, or could be, or should be.

    However, in those interpretations, that comment is out of order.

    Can you please clarify exactly what you mean, or delete your comment, or have it deleted for you.
    Robin, It's called knowledge for this watch more Cartoons. I am not advocating genocide here, It's Japan who are advocating genocide in their cartoon. I have deleted comment because it was a duplicate post. You can delete it. The reason for dublicate post is cartoon series Ninja Gaiden. There is a character in Ninja Gaiden series, they call him Foster. He said, I want to protect the earth from humans. Humans are weak and disgusting little creatures who love to fight. You know they should be wiped out, don't you? . Thanks robin and well done. Here is link if you want to know more about foster.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ninja_Gaiden_characters#A._Foster
    Barr125 wrote: »
    From this and other threads I've seen on the A&A from dead one, I can see him getting banned very soon, IMO anyway.
    Are you predicting future?
    Zombrex wrote: »
    Neither was a single passage in the Quran written by Mohammad, since he could not read nor write. This doesn't seem to bother most Muslims, why would it bother a Christian that Jesus didn't write anything himself (though he probably was literate, unlike Mohammad).?
    Hi Zombrex
    He could learn by someone, See i give you simple example, You can't read and write but you can learn a thing by heart from other person.. If you know a thing in your heart then you could easily ask someone to write it. "bienvenida" is Spanish of "welcome". I can't read or write Spanish . But i know the Pronunciation of bienvenida. It is very easily for me to persevere "bienvenida" by asking a person who could read and write. It's very simple. The Muhammad learned by heart quran from an angel they called him Gabriell... Gabriel (Jibra'il) is believed by Muslims to have been the angel who revealed the Qur'an to the prophet Muhammad,[17][18] and sent a message to most prophets, if not all, revealing their obligations... The most prophets include Jesus/Moses etc. If you interested read this link
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel
    Many christian has made Gabriel as holly spirit because of conjecture. See Jesus was prophet of God, Gabriel was an angel who sent message to Jesus... The doctrine of Trinity is conjecture about Prophet of God., on the other hand, Jesus was a pure monotheist. He was worshiper of only one God, You could find it easily from bible... For example
    Jesus said
    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
    Because of Conjecture most christians say, "the LORD is one".... One includes trinity. That's b$... How could 1=3


  • #81
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    JonPierson wrote: »
    Trained to hate other religions?!?!?!?!?!?

    The definition of atheism is: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

    I know of no training available for people who, as individuals, take a look around their beautiful world and work out for themselves, using evidence obtained using the scientific method, that, on the balance of probabilities, no external, invisible, supernatural entity was involved in its creation.
    JonPierson, Honestly tell, Do you hate religion or not...
    JonPierson wrote: »
    It is only religionists who are trained.
    See, i am religious person, I don't hate any religion. I even don't hate atheism. If your above quote is true then why is it contradicting me.
    JonPierson wrote: »
    Every single creature on the planet is born an atheist.
    That's every religious person say, Christian say, Every single creature on the planet is born a christian, Muslim say, Every single creature on the planet is born an muslim/jew etc. You are quite religious in your above view. You're relating atheism to whole universe. Sun is atheist which I doubt, If Sun were atheist why would it give light to you?...Who has made him to give light to disgusting humans. Obviously God. Why Sun is following orders, If sun is atheist then why is it following orders. Why doesn't it leave its orbit and rebel against laws of physics which bind its atheistic nature. As far i know atheist don't follow order. Forgive my weak/poor/disgusting English.
    JonPierson wrote: »
    Nothing, and no human being when he or she is born, has a belief in the existence of any god. Left alone by religionists, but growing up with the knowledge of science, in my opinion no rational human being would be a religionist. Humanity, at least, the non-religious, is so bewilderingly advanced now that it is impossible to believe that anyone, left to their own devices and allowed to think for themselves without being indoctrinated by religion, would feel any need whatsoever to invent gods anymore.
    what you said above is true, That's why Islam is against ancestral belief system.
    JonPierson wrote: »
    I know of no atheists who 'hate' religions. I despise what religious organisations do to human beings. I despise the fact that people, who would, without the virus of religion having infected them, be able to live rational, ethical lives under a moral code that does not force artificial differences, based on supernaturalism and superstition, cannot do so.
    I know of many atheist who 'hate' religions.
    JonPierson wrote: »
    And, mostly, I despise the fact that religions, around the world, have so much, in some cases, total, control of people's lives through either undue influence of, or total control of governments.
    Control is necessary as long as control benefits humanity. Why do you have traffic signals on road to control what. Religion control corruption in human nature... For example a person who is habitual liar, the only thing which create fear in his mind not to tell a lie is religion. You can create purity in the world on base of religion. Today religion isnt responsible for what is happening around. People are responsible, who aren't following basic religious teaching in their action.


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  • #82
    Barr125
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭Barr125


    dead one wrote: »
    Robin, It's called knowledge for this watch more Cartoons. I am not advocating genocide here, It's Japan who are advocating genocide in their cartoon. I have deleted comment because it was a duplicate post. You can delete it. The reason for dublicate post is cartoon series Ninja Gaiden. There is a character in Ninja Gaiden series, they call him Foster. He said, I want to protect the earth from humans. Humans are weak and disgusting little creatures who love to fight. You know they should be wiped out, don't you? . Thanks robin and well done. Here is link if you want to know more about foster.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ninja_Gaiden_characters#A._Foster



    Are you predicting future?

    Did............did you just reference Ninja Gaiden in an debate on religion??? :confused:


    Yes, I am predicting the future, BOW DOWN AND FEAR ME!!!! :cool:


  • #83
    JonPierson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭JonPierson


    I have been mulling over whether or not to dignify dead one with a reply to his last post. On balance, I have decided not to. In much the same way that Richard Dawkins refuses to debate with creationists, because they are, quite simply, just too stupid, I can't see any advantage to be gained from debating with someone who has this bizarre opinion that I, as an atheist, am somehow religious.


  • #84
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Barr125 wrote: »
    Yes, I am predicting ( the future, BOW DOWN AND FEAR ME!!!! :cool:
    It's not prediction. You are just p!ss!ng (predicting) on the present.
    JonPierson wrote: »
    I have been mulling over whether or not to dignify dead one with a reply to his last post. On balance, I have decided not to. In much the same way that Richard Dawkins refuses to debate with creationists, because they are, quite simply, just too stupid, I can't see any advantage to be gained from debating with someone who has this bizarre opinion that I, as an atheist, am somehow religious.
    You're badly busted. You said Every single creature on the planet is born an atheist.... In this sense you're religious.


  • #85
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,142 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    dead one wrote: »
    It's not prediction. You are just p!ss!ng (predicting) on the present.

    You're badly busted. You said Every single creature on the planet is born an atheist.... In this sense you're religious.

    You realise you're contradicting yourself with what you posted?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #86
    Barr125
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭Barr125


    dead one wrote: »
    It's not prediction. You are just p!ss!ng (predicting) on the present.

    Prove I'm not predicting the future. :D What evidence do you have that I'm not a foreseer?

    @koth, I just think he sadly does not understand what being an ''atheist'' means. -.-


  • #87
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Barr125 wrote: »
    Prove I'm not predicting the future. :D What evidence do you have that I'm not a foreseer?

    I foresee a second season of Talifornia and an Apocalypse, possibly in that order.


  • #88
    Giuliana Curved Nation
    Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Giuliana Curved Nation


    Galvasean wrote: »
    I foresee a second season of Talifornia and an Apocalypse, possibly in that order.

    would they not be the same thing


  • #89
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Barr125 wrote: »
    Prove I'm not predicting the future. :D What evidence
    You are newer, collecting warnings is my hobby as collecting stamps is atheism. See the evidence.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/member.php?u=432521&tab=infractions#infractions
    Barr125 wrote: »
    do you have that I'm not a foreseer?
    You're just p!ssing (foreseeing) in the wind


  • #90
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    ^^^ dead-one, your next use of gutter-language will earn you a red card, and since that'll have been your third and final one, your next breach of forum etiquette after that will earn you a permanent forum ban.


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  • #91
    Barr125
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭Barr125


    dead one wrote: »
    You are newer, collecting warnings is my hobby as collecting stamps is atheism. See the evidence.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/member.php?u=432521&tab=infractions#infractions

    You're just p!ssing (foreseeing) in the wind

    Just because I'm a newcomer does not mean a thing. And from what I can see from robin's posts, you yourself are fulfilling my prediction. Oh the irony...:pac:


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