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What is religion?

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    Last time I checked "no religion" included "spiritual"?

    So no religion is pretty self explanatory except you can't be sure how many of those without religion still believe in a higher something.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40 JonPierson


    koth wrote: »
    that's fine, but you don't get to redefine the English language to suit yourself.

    "`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.'"

    Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, Lewis Carroll, 1871


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    I believe Nietzsche answers the OP question rather well in a chapter of "Also sprach Zarathustra" headed "Über die religion" (On religion):

    "Ihrem Elende wollten sie entlaufen, und die Sterne waren ihnen zu
    weit. Da seufzten sie: "Oh dass es doch himmlische Wege gäbe, sich in
    ein andres Sein und Glück zu schleichen!" - da erfanden sie sich ihre
    Schliche und blutigen Tränklein!
    "

    My (approximate) translation: They wished to flee their misery, and the stars were too remote for them. Then they sighed: "Oh, if only there were celestial pathways through which to creep into another existence and happiness!" - then they invented their creepway and their bloody little drink for themselves!"

    In other words, religion is escapism, and it probably began when people first realised that they were mortal. At the time, I suppose you couldn't blame them, but in this day and age ---:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    is-man-one-of-gods-blunders.gif


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Humans are biologically prone to magical thinking, superstition and agency detection.

    They are also prone to forming shared cultural notions, putting more weight in ideas and stories that are shared amongst the culture than simply originate with the individual.

    Religion is simply the combination of both these things. It is the structuring, organizing and passing on of shared notions of magical thinking, superstition and agency detection.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    koth wrote: »
    You don't agree with something I didn't say?:confused:

    Baptising an infant is choosing their religion for them, and I consider that to be indoctrination.

    And that's not discussing the point I made that choosing a religion, i.e. infant baptism is indoctrination. Now if you want to discuss something else, fine, but don't pretend that you're addressing what I've posted.

    I actually agree with you on this issue, so I don't need to take it any further on that front. Apologies for my misunderstanding :)

    Penn: Simply put, parents want their children to know the truth, and to seek the very best for them. Christians regard Christianity as the truth, and they regard God's standards are being the best for their children. As a result they share about Jesus with their children.

    At a later point the child might think that Christianity is a load of twaddle and do something else. Ultimately, they make the decision, not their parents. Even in the case that they do decide to follow Christianity for themselves at a later stage, they will more than likely do so on the basis of their own thought. Or some, might have grown up in a Christian home whether that's more nominal or more practising, reject Christianity for a period of time, and then think about following it for themselves.

    As for your point about having to worship God, and acknowledge him. Simply put what that means for me is I acknowledge what God has done for me and what measures that He went through to bring me to know Him. I am thankful for that, so as a result, I praise Him, and I try to live for Him as best as I can and as much as a struggle that can be at times. I want to live as He wants me to not because that I am saved that way (I am only saved through the death and resurrection of Jesus), but because I love Him and I know that His ways are ultimately good.

    joseph brand: Personally, I think adult baptism is better than infant baptism. I'm here to argue for what is Biblical Christianity, that's my main aim when I post here.

    Also, I think Islam is a lie, but I respect the liberty of Muslims as much as parents of any creed to bring up their own children as they deem fit.

    As for right and wrong, I believe that most people do have a sense of right and wrong. I'm discussing that at the moment over on the Atheist / Christian debate thread on the Christianity forum.

    As for how we're all sinners. Simply in so far as we've all done wrong. I.E disobeyed God's standards. As a result we rightfully deserve God's judgement. God brought His Son Jesus into the world to pay the penalty for our sin on our behalf, so that we can be forgiven and we can enter into a new relationship with God living as He desires us to. God is just, and merciful. God satisfied the just punishment for our sin through Jesus' death and resurrection. God as a result showed us mercy.

    If God just simply forgave us, He wouldn't be just in the same way that a judge wouldn't be just for allowing a serial murderer to walk.

    Newaglish: I'm currently posting about some of my reasons in the Christianity forum on the Atheism / Christianity debate thread - you can join in there if you want. I'm happy to discuss it with people who are willing to do so with respect. There's only 3 people of the countless people that I have spoken to on my ignore list. Simply put, this is because I feel that discussing with them will more than likely be fruitless, and more than likely will become very negative very quickly. I really don't want to be a part of any kind of discussion which isn't done with grace and respect. Sometimes, it's simply better not to respond.

    I'm more than happy to respond to as much as I can, in as respectful a manner as I can.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    As for how we're all sinners. Simply in so far as we've all done wrong. I.E disobeyed God's standards. As a result we rightfully deserve God's judgement. God brought His Son Jesus into the world to pay the penalty for our sin on our behalf, so that we can be forgiven and we can enter into a new relationship with God living as He desires us to. God is just, and merciful. God satisfied the just punishment for our sin through Jesus' death and resurrection. God as a result showed us mercy.

    If God just simply forgave us, He wouldn't be just in the same way that a judge wouldn't be just for allowing a serial murderer to walk.

    And therein lies the ridiculousness of Christianity. If god was so unhappy why not just wipe out the entire human race and start over with new people, he's god, he can do what he wants, better to have people who do obey his laws than give people the choice not to and spend eternity judging them?


  • Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Giuliana Curved Nation


    If God just simply forgave us, He wouldn't be just in the same way that a judge wouldn't be just for allowing a serial murderer to walk.
    if god defines good & anything else god wants, then god defines justice, and if god can define justice, god can say "i'm so just i'm simply forgiving you [for doing something i pre-programmed you to do in the first place since i knew what was going to happen] "


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwsedUd9d6qVcQlw34L87mnAQK-0nDIBQlXdv6l6J500xazebPbJ8VqZ2H


    annoying-facebook-girl-meme-generator-god-sacrificed-himself-to-himself-to-save-us-from-himself-totally-believable-29e52d.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    Thanks, krudler. When you see the nonsense that those who believe in the sky fairy come out with sometimes, it's really a matter of either laughing or crying. The former is better for one's sanity.

    GOD.png

    My wife is going to New York in a couple of weeks' time and I'll ask her to get a DVD of the brilliant Bill Maher's "Religulous" for me. From the bits of it I've seen on the Internet, it's a hilarious exposition of the ridiculousness of religion. In fact, it's a composite of the words "religion" and "ridiculous".

    uskomatontakuva.jpg
    This is a book I'd recommend those who still find any credibility in religion really ought to read:

    the_horrors_and_absurdities_of_religion.large.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Religulous is worth a watch whether you agree with Bill Maher or not, some of the stuff in it is hilarious, sure he quickly dismisses pretty much anything religious people say in it but you cant help but see how crazy it all is, and at least its biased against all religions :pac: its on netflix if you have it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    I'm going to give that a watch, found it on CDWow for anyone else who's not a netfilx person.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    I'm going to give that a watch, found it on CDWow for anyone else who's not a netfilx person.

    the whole movie is on youtube btw, its backwards though, dunno if I can post the link here but just do a search for it it should be right there


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40 JonPierson


    philologos wrote: »
    Also, I think Islam is a lie, but I respect the liberty of Muslims as much as parents of any creed to bring up their own children as they deem fit.

    I would be grateful if you would explain why you believe that Islam is a lie.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40 JonPierson


    Ellis Dee wrote: »
    My wife is going to New York in a couple of weeks' time and I'll ask her to get a DVD of the brilliant Bill Maher's "Religulous" for me. From the bits of it I've seen on the Internet, it's a hilarious exposition of the ridiculousness of religion. In fact, it's a composite of the words "religion" and "ridiculous".

    I really don't want to rain on your parade but, dragging science kicking and screaming into this debate, unless you have already done so, I would confirm that your DVD player of choice can play Region 1 discs. The Region 2 version is actually only £3.97 from Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Religulous-DVD/dp/B0027Z83V4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331406082&sr=8-1).

    P.S. Sounds so good I've just ordered it myself!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    JonPierson wrote: »
    I would be grateful if you would explain why you believe that Islam is a lie.

    probably the same reason Islam thinks/knows all other religions are a lie


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40 JonPierson


    krudler wrote: »
    the whole movie is on youtube btw, its backwards though, dunno if I can post the link here but just do a search for it it should be right there

    Being a teenager in the 1960s, there were stories about paying 'Revolution No. 9' (White Album) backwards and getting all sorts of weird messages.

    Could this be a similar concept?

    (Just why would anyone play something backwards? Couldn't one do something more useful with one's time?)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    Unfortunately I think the picture's just mirrored, it's not actually backwards, as fun as that would be.

    There are other versions on youtube though, if a mod were to give the go ahead I'd link a decent one, we are allowed link youtube but full films seem a bit much to me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    philologos wrote: »
    I don't really define myself as "religious" though.

    I define myself as Dolph Lundgren.
    Ellis Dee wrote: »
    My wife is going to New York in a couple of weeks' time and I'll ask her to get a DVD of the brilliant Bill Maher's "Religulous" for me.

    You can buy it for €10 in Tower Records on O' Connell St.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    krudler wrote: »
    the whole movie is on youtube btw, its backwards though, dunno if I can post the link here but just do a search for it it should be right there

    Backwards? :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    Backwards? :confused:

    As wonderfulname said, its mirrored. People do this to get around the software Google uses to automatically detect copyrighted videos and take them down. Doesn't really matter except when there is text in the video.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    krudler wrote: »
    Religulous is worth a watch whether you agree with Bill Maher or not, some of the stuff in it is hilarious, sure he quickly dismisses pretty much anything religious people say in it but you cant help but see how crazy it all is, and at least its biased against all religions :pac: its on netflix if you have it.

    You might find it really really cheap elsewhere, cough, . . ahem. . . on the internet, nudge nudge wink wink.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    JonPierson wrote: »
    Being a teenager in the 1960s, there were stories about paying 'Revolution No. 9' (White Album) backwards and getting all sorts of weird messages.

    Could this be a similar concept?

    (Just why would anyone play something backwards? Couldn't one do something more useful with one's time?)

    sorry I meant it was reversed not literally played backwards, which is a pity as theres really funny subtitles in some parts of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40 JonPierson


    krudler wrote: »
    sorry I meant it was reversed not literally played backwards, which is a pity as theres really funny subtitles in some parts of it.

    I knew that. I'm sorry, I was being ironic.:rolleyes:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    JonPierson wrote: »
    I would be grateful if you would explain why you believe that Islam is a lie.
    Hi JonPierson,
    There is blind prejudice behind it. See it's not fault of Christian, Christian are trained to hate the man Muhammad and his religion. Who said it, I said it not, It's Thomas Carlyle in "Heroes and Hero-worship." He said, Christian West was trained to hate the man Muhammad and his religion, the same way as dogs were at one stage trained in my country to hate all black
    people
    ,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    JonPierson: That's a discussion best had on the Islam forum. However, it largely comes down to the subject of Jesus, who He was, why He came and what that means for us. When push comes to shove, it's not much different a reason as to why I disagree with atheism.

    dead one: Is your disagreement as a Muslim with atheism or Christianity a prejudice?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    dead one wrote: »
    Hi JonPierson,
    There is blind prejudice behind it. See it's not fault of Christian, Christian are trained to hate the man Muhammad and his religion. Who said it, I said it not, It's Thomas Carlyle in "Heroes and Hero-worship." He said, Christian West was trained to hate the man Muhammad and his religion, the same way as dogs were at one stage trained in my country to hate all black
    people
    ,

    I think Islam is nonsense.
    I think Judaism is nonsense.
    I think Christianity is nonsense.
    I think the various forms of Hinduism are nonsense.

    This is based on years of personal observation, having grown up with friends from numerous backgrounds, sexualities, families and reading into the beliefs of each one myself.
    At no point in time was I taught to hate or distrust someone based on what their religion is, but what their message was.
    It's all feckin nonsense.

    For crying out loud, even the Religious can't agree with people who supposedly believe in the same god!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    dead one wrote: »
    Hi JonPierson,
    There is blind prejudice behind it. See it's not fault of Christian, Christian are trained to hate the man Muhammad and his religion. Who said it, I said it not, It's Thomas Carlyle in "Heroes and Hero-worship." He said, Christian West was trained to hate the man Muhammad and his religion, the same way as dogs were at one stage trained in my country to hate all black
    people
    ,

    does anyone take anything you say seriously on here anymore?

    doesnt islam openly advocate the destruction of other religions? or is that just one of those out of context things.

    I'd put islam in the same batsh1t crazy basket as christianity too, yay for intolerance and hatred.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40 JonPierson


    philologos wrote: »
    JonPierson: That's a discussion best had on the Islam forum. However, it largely comes down to the subject of Jesus, who He was, why He came and what that means for us. When push comes to shove, it's not much different a reason as to why I disagree with atheism.

    Perhaps you would be good enough to, at least, post a few bullet points as to why you think Islam is a lie. Both Christians and Muslims worship the same God and, as far as I understand it, both religions have the same belief in the Old Testament and also, Jesus is recognised as a prophet by Islam.

    I just wondered what your basis for embracing Christianity as the truth and rejecting Islam as a lie is.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    philologos wrote: »
    dead one: Is your disagreement as a Muslim with atheism or Christianity a prejudice?
    hi philologos,
    See, I have no disagreement with Christianity or Atheism as long as they respect each other. I mean you said, Islam is lie. You think it as christian not human. We all are human we should respect each other creeds and choices. If you think Islam is lie then this foram isn't good place to talk back of muslim. You should speak in Islam foram. It isn't case of Islam if you had said the above words for Buddhism you would find the same response from side. You think Islam is lie becuase it's against your business. Isn't it truth. See, I think you're christian as Christianity is your native religion. If you had born in Muslim family, You would think Christianity as lie. Bible is Christianity. There is prophecy of Prophet from tonge of Jesus in Bible. Who is that and why he has not come even after 2000 years.
    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I think Islam is nonsense.
    I think Judaism is nonsense.
    I think Christianity is nonsense.
    I think the various forms of Hinduism are nonsense.
    What you think, other think not. There is huge difference of thinking. The only way to change humanity is religion. The reason is simple, common folks tend to believe what they have been taught in the name of religion. They think 10 times before committing sin or doing anything wrong. Religion is good as long people follow fundamental of religion. You are saying religions are nonsence. Religion aren't, Its people are nonsense who aren't following fundamentals of religion in their action. Suppose i am Jew/christian/muslim, I don't represent Islam/Christianity/Judaism as long i don't follow teaching of Muhammad/Jesus/Moses. Today majority muslim/chritian/jew are deviated from their religion. They are hypocrites, they place muslim/chritian/jew with their name, infact, when it comes to action, they follow their desires not religion.
    Sonics2k wrote: »
    This is based on years of personal observation, having grown up with friends from numerous backgrounds, sexualities, families and reading into the beliefs of each one myself.
    At no point in time was I taught to hate or distrust someone based on what their religion is, but what their message was.
    It's all feckin nonsense.
    Common people tend to become hypocrite. You are talking about common people. Common people who place muslim/chiristian/jew with their names don't represent Islam etc. See i give you plane example.
    Quran says
    Always speak the truth. [Quran 22:30]
    A muslim who doesn't speak truth. He isn't following Quran. You can't represent his action to islam. There is factor of hypocrisy in his action. You are blaming quran for his action. Think about it. The same way bible says Tell the truth. A christian who is liar he doesn't represent Bible. I hope you would get the point.
    krudler wrote: »
    does anyone take anything you say seriously on here anymore?
    See, that's not my problem. wink.gif
    krudler wrote: »
    doesnt islam openly advocate the destruction of other religions? or is that just one of those out of context things.
    No, it you who advocate destruction of other religions?... see and open your eyes comrade, the lieutenant on dark hill said
    I think Islam is nonsense.
    I think Judaism is nonsense.
    I think Christianity is nonsense.
    I think the various forms of Hinduism are nonsense.
    Have you ever had doubts about this
    krudler wrote: »
    I'd put islam in the same batsh1t crazy basket as christianity too, yay for intolerance and hatred.
    Atheism? Aren'tt atheist trained to hate other religions. Isn't it hatred.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    dead one wrote: »
    Atheism? Aren'tt atheist trained to hate other religions. Isn't it hatred.
    I must have received my atheist training in catholic school.


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