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6 years jail for garlic scam

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    #302
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    Wy should it be a criminal matter? A group of garlic producers have the ear of some unelected official who decides the CAP rules in Europe, and they cost the rest of us by pushing up the cost of garlic. This is the cronyism. Thats the problem - the State is protecting it's cronies at the cost of someone who wants to import at a normal cost, and jails the latter to protect the jobs of the former. He did pay 9% on these pseudo-onions, which is enough.
    Where is your evidence for this? You're just making this stuff up, aren't you.


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    #303
    086Chance
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭086Chance


    The same judge that sentenced Paul gave only 3years to a paedophile for assaulting a 7 year old boy and a 5year suspended sentence to a man for punching a 70year old pensioner causing his death. How is this fair???


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    #304
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    plasmaguy wrote: »
    If it was up to me, everything from China would have 232% duty on it.

    I'm not sure why we should import anything from China to be honest. European and Irish manufacturing has been decimiated by cheap Chinese imports, much of it like I said, rip offs and counterfeited products at worst, and at best people slaving away in sweatshops to produce Ipads and cheap trainers, something the western consumer cares little about by the way.

    Of course our idiot politicians in Ireland and Europe are all pushing for a globalised world with free trade with everyone, little understanding the consequences.

    In terms of free trade with China, there will only be one winner, China.

    If history has taught us anything it's that protectionism works.


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    #305
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    Wy should it be a criminal matter? A group of garlic producers have the ear of some unelected official who decides the CAP rules in Europe, and they cost the rest of us by pushing up the cost of garlic. This is the cronyism. Thats the problem - the State/EU is protecting it's cronies at the cost of someone who wants to import at a normal cost, and jails the latter to protect the jobs of the former. He did pay 9% on these pseudo-onions, which is enough.


    One more point here. Those of you who illegally download - and I don't include myself here, since I don't - are tax avoiders, as well as stealing from the copyright holders. Turn yourself in.

    That's not really the point. If he couldn't afford to import garlic and make a profit, he should have imported something else.

    The point here is, he was probably competing with some other honest importers who paid the duty, and he decided to engage in a scam to make bigger profits.

    If he couldn't make money from garlic, he could have imported something else.


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    #306
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    If history has taught us anything it's that protectionism works.

    Hmm...when Ireland was a protected country in terms of trade, we had 100,000 unemployed and a massive manufacturing sector, and everyone could afford a good house, 3rd level education and so on and very little mortgage defaulting and generally we were in a good way.

    While not all the 350,000 extra unemployed can be put down to the loss of protectionism, a fair amount of it can, with almost all manufacturing outsourced to cheaper countries.


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    #307
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    086Chance wrote: »
    The same judge that sentenced Paul gave only 3years to a paedophile for assaulting a 7 year old boy and a 5year suspended sentence to a man for punching a 70year old pensioner causing his death. How is this fair???

    It's not. But that's how the Irish justice system works. Judges don't really consider heinous crimes against the person to be particularly bad. But if you dare not pay the government their extortionate racket money, you'll go to jail for a very, very long time. Look at any of the sentencing in Irish courts and it is thus. This government is a revenue generation machine and doesn't give a flying f**k about human beings.


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    #308
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    dvpower wrote: »
    Where is your evidence for this? You're just making this stuff up, aren't you.

    What do you think I am making up? The is a EU wide CAP policy. I don't think Ireland cares enough about garlic producers to impose a 232% tax on imports, were it up to us unilaterally.

    Why do you think that there is a 232% tax on garlic, and less on onions, or electronics, or software ( and other more important stuff in 2012)? Is it

    1) Garlic is very important to Europe, if we don't have garlic producers we all die because of the vampires.
    2) Garlic production is not important but the producers have the ear of certain governments. Possibly for sentimental reasons.
    3) The EU makes arbitrary rules about customs, and garlic lucked out. If the dice had rolled a different way iPads would have a 232% tax.

    I would go with 2).


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    #309
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    One possible reason for the high duty on Chinese garlic may be the Chinese practice of dumping garlic.

    The US currently impose a rate of 376.67% on Chinese garlic as an anti dumping measure.


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    #310
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    plasmaguy wrote: »
    Hmm...when Ireland was a protected country in terms of trade, we had 100,000 unemployed and a massive manufacturing sector, and everyone could afford a good house, 3rd level education and so on and very little mortgage defaulting and generally we were in a good way.

    Sorry, when was this?
    plasmaguy wrote: »
    While not all the 350,000 extra unemployed can be put down to the loss of protectionism, a fair amount of it can, with almost all manufacturing outsourced to cheaper countries.

    You mean within the EU, right? We're still paying 230% more to import certain products, right?


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    #311
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »

    I would go with 2
    Based on no evidence whatsoever.


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    #312
    Doc Ruby
    Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    1) Garlic is very important to Europe, if we don't have garlic producers we all die because of the vampires.
    2) Garlic production is not important but the producers have the ear of certain governments. Possibly for sentimental reasons.
    3) The EU makes arbitrary rules about customs, and garlic lucked out. If the dice had rolled a different way iPads would have a 232% tax.

    I would go with 2).
    I've no idea what you're so upset about, the door swings both ways on this. There are also large tarriffs on things like shoes and clothes from China.

    China in turn has its own tarriffs, and good luck trying to get into the Chinese market, they don't let anyone open up shop without the party holding a controlling share. And thats assuming they don't just do what they did to twitter and make it illegal before setting up their own version.

    Countries like China and India that manipulate their currency to make things artificially cheap while at the same time having an all but free workforce could very easily undercut local producers of essentials like clothes and food, and do it for long enough that everyone else would be dependent on them for basics.

    So thats where the fury over cheap garlic leads, a beaurocrat in China telling you what to do or the food gets cut off.

    And if all that wasn't enough there are often strategic, diplomatic and political reasons for tarriffs. The EU has a few of those against the USA as well.


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    #313
    goat2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    086Chance wrote: »
    The same judge that sentenced Paul gave only 3years to a paedophile for assaulting a 7 year old boy and a 5year suspended sentence to a man for punching a 70year old pensioner causing his death. How is this fair???
    it shows where priorities lie, money speak all languages, it should be life inside for a life.


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    #314
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    What do you think I am making up? The is a EU wide CAP policy. I don't think Ireland cares enough about garlic producers to impose a 232% tax on imports, were it up to us unilaterally.

    Why do you think that there is a 232% tax on garlic, and less on onions, or electronics, or software ( and other more important stuff in 2012)? Is it

    1) Garlic is very important to Europe, if we don't have garlic producers we all die because of the vampires.
    2) Garlic production is not important but the producers have the ear of certain governments. Possibly for sentimental reasons.
    3) The EU makes arbitrary rules about customs, and garlic lucked out. If the dice had rolled a different way iPads would have a 232% tax.

    I would go with 2).

    I could be wrong, but I'd imagine the French are fairly big garlic producers, aren't they famous for it? Hence the massive duty to protect them I would assume.

    Now if it was sugar production and Ireland's farmers were at risk, well we all know how that turned out don't we.

    But hey, protectionism doesn't work, just ask those who work in our great sugar manufacturing sector...oh wait...


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    #315
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,340 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    plasmaguy wrote: »
    I could be wrong, but I'd imagine the French are fairly big garlic producers, aren't they famous for it? Hence the massive duty to protect them I would assume.

    Now if it was sugar production and Ireland's farmers were at risk, well we all know how that turned out don't we.

    But hey, protectionism doesn't work, just ask those who work in our great sugar manufacturing sector...oh wait...

    In fairness there are huge barriers, regulations and tariffs to get around if you want to import perfectly lovely cheaper beef from Uruguay or Brazil, which has the affect of protecting Irish dairy farmers.
    You win some, you lose some, but at the end of the days it's a commonly agreed policy.

    I do dislike Begley being painted (not by you, by others) as some of sort of working hero fighting for the common good to get us all cheap garlic.

    He's a lowlife chancer.


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    #316
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    He's a lowlife chancer.

    Would probably make a good politician so.


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    #317
    l.m
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭l.m


    The sentence is a disgrace, he's a good descent man with a family. He is not a threat to society, rapist etc.. are getting the same sentence as him for gods sake.


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    #318
    chocksaway
    Registered Users Posts: 608 ✭✭✭chocksaway


    he knew exactlty what he was doing. that money could have helped to keep a hospital ward open or something! The tax is the tax- high or low if you want to import garlic pay it, if not get into some other line of work.


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    #319
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    l.m wrote: »
    The sentence is a disgrace, he's a good descent man with a family. He is not a threat to society, rapist etc.. are getting the same sentence as him for gods sake.

    He's worse than a rapist. He's a guy who wouldn't pay a 230% import tax on a food stuff. He's evil. Evil I tells ya.

    Besides, the vast majority of men who commit rape in this country don't see the inside of a courtroom, never mind a prison. Those convicted would be unfortunate to get a sentence as long as this guy.

    It demonstrates the government's priorities and is a clear statement of what they think of the people of this country - "We don't really care all that much if you're raped or murdered but don't dare flaunt of insane taxes or we'll bang you up for a very long time"

    Nice country.


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    #320
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    Why? Why are we protecting European growers of Garlic, rather than European growers or onions, or apples, or makers of electronics - a 232% on iPads from China would see iPad factories start up in the West within a year? Where is the 232% on non-European software? That;d push up my wages for sure ( at the cost of your software).

    there's no 232% tax on Ipads etc because the profits land in the West anyway, if it's a Western company using cheap chinese labour it's perfectly palatable apparently.

    And I guess the apple and onion growers just got the wrong lobbyist.


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    #321
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    chocksaway wrote: »
    he knew exactlty what he was doing. that money could have helped to keep a hospital ward open or something!

    Yeah, our health system was in such a great state even during 'de boom' there's no reason not to believe that this money would have been used to turn all that around. :rolleyes:


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    #322
    ollaetta
    Registered Users Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭ollaetta


    l.m wrote: »
    The sentence is a disgrace, he's a good descent man.

    Well, he is going down for it.

    Seriously though, the sentence does seem excessive.


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    #323
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Definitely Not Penny Apples....

    Those who live in glass houses etc

    So who hasn't bought cheap fags?

    Who hasn't brought in more than their allowance of alcohol without declaring it?

    Who hasn't bought 'cheap fuel' knowing that it wasn't kosher?

    Who hasn't declared the odd nixer that we did for the bloke down the road?

    I could go on but I suggest everyone just fills in their own dodgy activity not sanctioned by the state....

    This man did indeed commit fraud - he was caught and admitted it.

    On a realistic scale 1.6 m Euro is relatively small money in terms of fraud activity by an international trading company...especially in contrast to the billions in fraud committed by other scions of the economy.

    What Joe Citizen commits in fraud is relatively no more than this individual committed.

    So why is it that otherwise law abiding citizens and companies take advantage of doing such deals dodgedly and choose to commit fraud?

    The answer is that such taxes and levies create regional disparities which will provide those who are presented with such opportunities a way to accrue personal gain.

    In the past smuggling of wine and spirits happened all around the coast of Ireland due to excessive custom levies, and illicit distiling of alcohol was prevalent. Recent policy has unfortunately encouraged a continuation of this type of behaviour.

    There is of yet to be the it realisation that slapping goods with excessive duties and taxes will precipitate such black market and fraudulent activity

    Locking up everyone who engages in this activity whether with a pack of fags or 500 tons of garlic WILL not achieve anything for the country

    The government developing sensible policies in relation to economic activity will

    If they are going to lock this guy up for 6 years the goverment better start putting up a fence around the entire country and locking the whole lot of us up....


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    #324
    Cardinal Richelieu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Cardinal Richelieu


    l.m wrote: »
    The sentence is a disgrace, he's a good descent man with a family. He is not a threat to society, rapist etc.. are getting the same sentence as him for gods sake.

    I think you will find that if you talk to anyone in the Irish Horticulture business that has dealt with his family business or know of them, they would have a hard time associating the word descent. Its actually businesses like there's and other Irish firms that has created a dominate monopoly in the industry at the cost of local jobs.


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    #325
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »
    I think you will find that if you talk to anyone in the Irish Horticulture business that has dealt with his family business or know of them, they would have a hard time associating the word descent.

    Yeah, I don't think conjecture about his character or the characters of his family is really admissible in this debate as nobody knows the guy.


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    #326
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    086Chance wrote: »
    The same judge that sentenced Paul gave only 3years to a paedophile for assaulting a 7 year old boy and a 5year suspended sentence to a man for punching a 70year old pensioner causing his death. How is this fair???

    This is my problem with it. I accept he broke the law and essentially didnt pay taxs. I dont think hes a working class hero as some people are acuusing others of suggesting. I think the sentence handed down is indicative is a lack of priorities to say the least. This judge clearly values money more than human life judging by his sentences. This sentence handed down by the judge demonstrates that he thinks this man more of a threat to society than a peadophile and a man who assaults pensioners.

    Even without comparing it to far more serious crimes such as rape and assault theres still a problem. Ireland has suffered hugely from developers, bankers and the rest. This guy didnt pay 1.6 million in taxes. I really really dont believe that there isnt worse tax evaders out there than this guy. One of our politicians hadnt a bank account. Another, Charlie haughey got away with millions easily more than this guys revenue bill. Theres serious questions also regarding a lot of the taxes paid by some developers and insider trading and dodgy loans in the bank.

    This guy is small fry. Why are they targetting a garlic trader, a small business man above the high ranking theives we funded for years.


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    #327
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    This guy is small fry. Why are they targetting a garlic trader, a small business man above the high ranking theives we funded for years.

    Tell me how €1.6m defrauded in 4 years is small fry? Yet again, €250k dole fraud gets you 12 1/2 years. Nobody seemed to have any real problem with that.

    And even accepting that he's at the lower end of corporate corruption in this country, how are we going to catch the big fish if we can't even reel in the small fry?

    His appeal is going to be very interesting.


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    #328
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    This guy is small fry. Why are they targetting a garlic trader, a small business man above the high ranking theives we funded for years.
    He managed to evade 1.6m in taxes on the import of garlic, one of the many fruit and veg that he imports. This isn't a small businessman cutting a few corners. This is a major case of tax evasion. €1.6m puts him up there with the 'high ranking theives'.
    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    Yeah, I don't think conjecture about his character or the characters of his family is really admissible in this debate as nobody knows the guy.
    He has just been convicted in a major case of tax evasion - his bad character has been established by a court.


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    #329
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gozunda wrote: »
    Locking up everyone who engages in this activity whether with a pack of fags or 500 tons of garlic WILL not achieve anything for the country
    Just balancing that out a bit.


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    #330
    TheUsual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭TheUsual


    Was out on the streets today.
    Garlic dealers asking for 50 euro for a gram.

    It's nuts out there I tell ya.

    I predict a huge surge in vampire numbers and middle-class mammies with nothing to waffle about.


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    #331
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    Yeah, still no bankers in jail. The wealth of the country squandered by our government. Not much abject poverty evident as yet but it's on the way, folks. You better believe it.

    Putting this father of three in jail for 6 years might seem like a nice bit of retribution for the Little Irelanders out there but it's actually going to cost the taxpayer yet more money. Remember - before he was jailed, he didn't cost the taxpayer a penny. Quite the opposite. His incarceration is going to cost more than his 'fraud'. And all because the government want their revenge.

    Once again, wonderful country we live in. :cool:


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