Huge hike in road tax as motor cash dries up

listermint · 07-03-2012 04:39PM

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Golf, I don't drive a golf?

But you have a 'high performance' low tax car.

Praytell what this superb vehicle is....

runawaybishop · 07-03-2012 04:48PM

listermint wrote: »

Who the hell would drive up the north to get fuel. Yeah it might be some around the border counties. but come on like!

Who the hell would drive up north to do a bit of shopping? Probably the same people that would like to save 50 cent a litre.

listermint · 07-03-2012 04:52PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

Who the hell would drive up north to do a bit of shopping? Probably the same people that would like to save 50 cent a litre.

You can bring shopping home... are you gonna drap a 500 litre trailer up for north for fuel ??

:rolleyes:

Sesshoumaru · 07-03-2012 06:00PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Sesshoumaru it is not about changeing livestyles the reality is that not everyone goes to the same place to start work ever morning or they may have changed jobs and have to commute the reality is that Motor tax is an equlity tax everone who had a car had to tax it before the Greens made a dogs dinner of it it is ridiclous that someone that can spend 40,000 on a bmw or a high preformance car with a big diesel engine has to pay only a little more car tax than joe soap who has a small 1.3 family petrol car costing 16,000 ( by the way I have neither as I drive a company van)

Tax on fuel IN IRELAND hits the person that is working unfairly as we do not have a good public transport system. So it is another disincentive for the unemployed person to return to work and maybe have to fork out 50 euro+ every week to get to work. It also hit our transport industry we are an island nation and needto get our goods to market in europe

No policy or plan can account for every last variable

I still stand by my point that people living near to where they work and living in higher density residential areas is preferable and something we should encourage through policy. That and working from home. I don't really need to come into the office to do my job. I'm sure it's the same for a lot of other people.

According to the ESRI, higher earners have been hit the hardest in the last few austerity budgets

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0224/1224312309019.html

The person who can afford that 40k car makes a huge contribution in VAT & VRT when he or she purchases that car. That person is probably in the higher tax brackets that have been hit harder, relatively speaking. I'm not necessarily arguing for or against progressive taxation. I'm just saying it is unfair to single out people who can afford a 40k car. That person is definitely well off, but I wouldn't describe them as a ripe taxation target that will fill our current account deficit.

Eventually fuel will get more expensive whether we want it to or not. The planets population is increasing exponentially and as already mentioned by another poster, people in places like China are rapidly taking up car ownership in their millions.

http://bit.ly/xVOS6N

We can start weaning ourselves off OIL on our terms now or we take a hard landing at a future point. That's how I see it and motor tax on fuel sounds like a good idea to me.

dahamsta · 07-03-2012 06:08PM

You think the ESRI is a credible source of information?

Sesshoumaru · 07-03-2012 06:23PM

dahamsta wrote: »

You think the ESRI is a credible source of information?

Well no one is asking them to prove or disprove the existence of the Higgs Boson. Who pays the most tax - I thought that would be straight forward enough. Are we just debating their credibility? or are we also debating if higher earners have been hit harder relatively speaking by taxes in recent years?

snaps · 07-03-2012 06:29PM

I don't care what happens, but as long as it is done fairly. We as a family are struggling, had to downgrade our family car. Brought a pre 08 car (The price difference between an 07-08 version of the same car was astounding) so i am paying the old tax band which is high enough (1.6 engine). The price of fuel is crippling us, we barely use the car now apart from school & shopping runs. We don't go out any more as after car fuel and heating oil is brought we have nothing left in the kitty (We used to go out quite regularly, spending money else where but those days are well gone).

Just want this done fairly, we have a small engine diesel car now and cant afford any more tax.

NCT now as well is every year on a 10 year old car, more expense on keeping the car on the road, its never ending at present.

Perhaps a tax on fuel would be the answer and do away with the yearly tax.

Just wondering, how many countrys in Europe do this, have all the tax on fuel and no standing yearly tax?

Farmer Pudsey · 07-03-2012 06:31PM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Well no one is asking them to prove or disprove the existence of the Higgs Boson. Who pays the most tax - I thought that would be straight forward enough. Are we just debating their credibility? or are we also debating if higher earners have been hit harder relatively speaking by taxes in recent years?

I thaught that we were debateing about car tax there are other area on boards that debate about personal taxation and the property crah and the reasons for it the debate on this thread seems to be on the point of which is preferable higher car tax and higher fuel prices

On this the reality is that in Ireland we have a largely sprawling population we cannot change this if we were to start again we would not start here like the Dingle man told the Yank when he was looking for the way to Donegal

bbam · 07-03-2012 06:36PM

listermint wrote: »

Who the hell would drive up the north to get fuel. Yeah it might be some around the border counties. but come on like!

We live within 10 miles of the border.. When I was growing up it was part of the weekly routine to nip up on Saturday afternoon to fill up... there would be queues..

runawaybishop · 07-03-2012 06:37PM

listermint wrote: »

You can bring shopping home... are you gonna drap a 500 litre trailer up for north for fuel ??

:rolleyes:

You can rolleyes all you want. This will absolutely kill all service stations along the border. Any transport companies will also cease filling up in the south if they are in range of a northern station. As well as that people are further encouraged to nip up north for shopping since the fuel costs are made back.

People already drive extra miles for a station with a 4/5 cents saving. They will travel more for 50 cent.

Sesshoumaru · 07-03-2012 06:41PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I thaught that we were debateing about car tax there are other area on boards that debate about personal taxation and the property crah and the reasons for it the debate on this thread seems to be on the point of which is preferable higher car tax and higher fuel prices

On this the reality is that in Ireland we have a largely sprawling population we cannot change this if we were to start again we would not start here like the Dingle man told the Yank when he was looking for the way to Donegal

Yes I'm also debating motor tax. You're asking us to take into account peoples personal circumstances when calculating how much motor tax they should pay or what system we use i.e. motor tax all on fuel or not?

On your last point, sorry but just giving up and saying it can't be fixed is just a recipe for emigration. What's the point in staying in Ireland if the condition of living here is nothing can be changed, things are as they are!

Sesshoumaru · 07-03-2012 06:44PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

You can rolleyes all you want. This will absolutely kill all service stations along the border. Any transport companies will also cease filling up in the south if they are in range of a northern station. As well as that people are further encouraged to nip up north for shopping since the fuel costs are made back.

People already drive extra miles for a station with a 4/5 cents saving. They will travel more for 50 cent.

Make an agreement with NI so that fuel is the same price both north and south of the border. Basically we both agree to tax fuel the same way and at the same rate. I think this level of co-operation is possible.

Our man in Havana · 07-03-2012 06:46PM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Make an agreement with NI so that fuel is the same price both north and south of the border. Basically we both agree to tax fuel the same way and at the same rate. I think this level of co-operation is possible.

[Paisley]ULSTER SAYS NO![/paisley]

Padkir · 07-03-2012 07:01PM

I haven't read to the end of the thread yet, but so far only one person has mentioned the glaring problem with including motor tax in the price of petrol/diesel.

If diesel was 30/40 cent per litre dearer here to include tax, everyone within any reasonable distance of the North would pop over to get their fuel.

Meaning a huge decrease in the actual tax intake for the government.

There are probably other reasons, but that is the main reason why it will NEVER happen, so can people stop going on about it as if it's a viable solution that'll solve all our problems!

EDIT: Just finished and so maybe someone else may have mentioned it...!

My point still stands though!!

Top Dog · 07-03-2012 07:13PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

People already drive extra miles for a station with a 4/5 cents saving. They will travel more for 50 cent.

Where are you pulling this figure of 50 cent from?

People have done the maths properly (posted previously in this thread) and to neutralise the total removal of motor tax the government would have to increase fuel by 25c/l. Now at the moment unleaded is about £1.44/l in the UK which is @ €1.68/l when converted. With unleaded being around the €1.60 mark here now you're looking at an increase to €1.85/l - so by going North you'd save less than 20c/l. And thats before you factor in the cost of the amount of fuel you'd use to actually get there. Yeah, the border counties might suffer a little, but the rest of the country wouldn't be forming a line to go north - it simply wouldn't make economic sense.

And if the government did something sensible (which we all know they won't) and brought in a blanket €300 per car per year motor tax and then applied the difference to fuel to make up the balance, you'd see negligible benefit in travelling North, with unleaded at maybe €1.75/l. And those who are currently being crippled by extortionate motor tax would be able to get more fuel so the coffers would see an increased return.

07-03-2012 07:18PM

Padkir wrote: »

I haven't read to the end of the thread yet, but so far only one person has mentioned the glaring problem with including motor tax in the price of petrol/diesel.,................

It's been mentioned countless times recently in other threads and it's boring as feck now. One person per thread mentioning it is enough

07-03-2012 07:31PM

The tax on fuel and cars is just plain wrong, we have no choice but to use our cars, we can't all live in Dublin because 90% of the work is in Dublin, that's not our fault nor justification for high fuel tax.

High tax means people won't spend, that's what the government don't realise.

If tax was fair on new car purchases then people will buy more new cars, if there was no less vat and 0 vrt cars would be more affordable.

Paying 10 grand tax and more on a small little car like a Volkswagen Golf is WRONG!

Why have such high tax ? I know why we all do, to bail out the banks no other reason.

Just because someone can afford a new car doesn't mean it's right to screw them with tax and say well if you can afford it you should be taxed very highly on it, it's wrong. It's wrong to tax the hell out of the ordinary man making sure he can never afford a new car, but only for such high taxes he or she may be able to, keeping more people in jobs because they have more money at the end of the month to spend on things they want and not have it taken from them in tax!

Life is so hard now that I wonder if it gets worse will everyone just say to hell with the mortgage and leave the country and the banks to go FCuk themselves ? you could never come back to Ireland, but there isn't much you would be leaving behind and it's making my blood boil they agreed to bail out Anglo. This country sickens me to the point I want to go, but the god damn mortgage is the only thing holding me here like a bloody nose around my neck and it''s slowly but surely choking the life out of me, and the banks have the life sucked out of Ireland, god help us in another few years as I feel it will get a lot worse!

Big Nasty · 07-03-2012 07:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The tax on fuel and cars is just plain wrong, we have no choice but to use our cars, we can't all live in Dublin because 90% of the work is in Dublin, that's not our fault nor justification for high fuel tax.

But yee get cheaper gaffs!;)

bbam · 07-03-2012 07:47PM

listermint wrote: »

You can bring shopping home... are you gonna drap a 500 litre trailer up for north for fuel ??

:rolleyes:

Lots of people round here bring 1000l kerosene home for their heating.. Saving of about €180 a fill last time I checked... Now if it were even 25c a litre to be saved, that would be €250 a tank saving... Personally I'd save about €800 a year which incidentally would tax my car...

Farmer Pudsey · 07-03-2012 07:50PM

Top Dog wrote: »

Where are you pulling this figure of 50 cent from?

People have done the maths properly (posted previously in this thread) and to neutralise the total removal of motor tax the government would have to increase fuel by 25c/l. Now at the moment unleaded is about £1.44/l in the UK which is @ €1.68/l when converted. With unleaded being around the €1.60 mark here now you're looking at an increase to €1.85/l - so by going North you'd save less than 20c/l. And thats before you factor in the cost of the amount of fuel you'd use to actually get there. Yeah, the border counties might suffer a little, but the rest of the country wouldn't be forming a line to go north - it simply wouldn't make economic sense.

And if the government did something sensible (which we all know they won't) and brought in a blanket €300 per car per year motor tax and then applied the difference to fuel to make up the balance, you'd see negligible benefit in travelling North, with unleaded at maybe €1.75/l. And those who are currently being crippled by extortionate motor tax would be able to get more fuel so the coffers would see an increased return.

The border counties would take a hit on more that the fuel if people go north they will fill there trollys as well so the government will lose on Electrical goods, booze and general shopping. a 20 cent difference will equate to 11 euro a tank it so for anyone within 40 miles of the border pop over fill you trolly and the difference in fuel will cover the cost of the journey

It will add 15% to the price of fuel for a person who is unemployed that is offered a job it adds about 7.50 more week he needs to earn to break even 0n average it will cost an employer 12 euro more to get him off yhe dole and it another reason if you are on less that 40,000 to hope you get layed off you will have to earn about 9.5 at the low rate and nearly 16 euro at the hight rate to cover fuel costs 500 and 800 euro a year

It will also make it more difficult for our exports to compete asmost goods travel in Ireland by truck or maybe you will suggest we discount it for haulage firms which will mean dearer fuel againand increase all the calculations above

Yakult · 07-03-2012 08:00PM

I think I will buy a motorbike.

Top Dog · 07-03-2012 08:06PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The border counties would take a hit on more that the fuel if people go north they will fill there trollys as well so the government will lose on Electrical goods, booze and general shopping. a 20 cent difference will equate to 11 euro a tank it so for anyone within 40 miles of the border pop over fill you trolly and the difference in fuel will cover the cost of the journey

It will add 15% to the price of fuel for a person who is unemployed that is offered a job it adds about 7.50 more week he needs to earn to break even 0n average it will cost an employer 12 euro more to get him off yhe dole and it another reason if you are on less that 40,000 to hope you get layed off you will have to earn about 9.5 at the low rate and nearly 16 euro at the hight rate to cover fuel costs 500 and 800 euro a year

It will also make it more difficult for our exports to compete asmost goods travel in Ireland by truck or maybe you will suggest we discount it for haulage firms which will mean dearer fuel againand increase all the calculations above

So your suggestion or solution would be .... what exactly?

Farmer Pudsey · 07-03-2012 08:23PM

Top Dog wrote: »

So your suggestion or solution would be .... what exactly?

VRT and Car tax are the forms of tax on cars that cause least damage to the economy everybody and I mean EVERYBODY gets caught by them to a certain extent there may be one or two escapee's and the more disposable income you have the more likely you are to pay. VRT is a discressonary tax to a certain extent unless your car goes wallop you can put off buying it for a year or two there is nothing wrong with a 8,9,10 or 15 year old car they are also the greener than new cars believe it or not.

Car tax is not discressonary but if you have a car you are legally obliged to pay it Now generall the better off you are the more you will spend on a car I have never seen a doctor driveing a Corolla not to mind a Punto new or old

Anybody who has a car gets caught there is no such thing as tax avoidance and tax evasion on car's can be reduced to a low level so the Doctor , dentist, Builder farmer plumber all get caught to some extent as well as the ordinary worker or the fella on the dole

A tax on fuel is a disincentive to work

Top Dog · 07-03-2012 08:43PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Anybody who has a car gets caught there is no such thing as tax avoidance and tax evasion on car's can be reduced to a low level so the Doctor , dentist, Builder farmer plumber all get caught to some extent as well as the ordinary worker or the fella on the dole

A tax on fuel is a disincentive to work

I'm still not seeing any suggestions - just a continued rant about the current system.

And there's plenty of tax avoidance/evasion. People weigh up the pro's & con's of it, and in many cases the risk is worth it to them when the cost of tax eclipses the value of their car.

There's also still plenty of foreign registered cars frequenting our roads - NONE of which contribute in the way of Motor tax. Put it on fuel - everyone contributes.

And yes, it most likely would be necessary to allow businesses to claim back vat or incentivise it in other ways if you're going to put the tax on the fuel, but there are ways and means to make it equitable and fair for everyone.

Gatster · 07-03-2012 08:46PM

Posted this before, still doesn't seem quite right:

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Audi/A7/3.0-tdi-/131287955495377/advert?channel=CARS

dr.fuzzenstein · 07-03-2012 08:57PM

Top Dog wrote: »

I'm still not seeing any suggestions - just a continued rant about the current system.

And there's plenty of tax avoidance/evasion. People weigh up the pro's & con's of it, and in many cases the risk is worth it to them when the cost of tax eclipses the value of their car.

There's also still plenty of foreign registered cars frequenting our roads - NONE of which contribute in the way of Motor tax. Put it on fuel - everyone contributes.

And yes, it most likely would be necessary to allow businesses to claim back vat or incentivise it in other ways if you're going to put the tax on the fuel, but there are ways and means to make it equitable and fair for everyone.

Until then, foreign reg and green diesel.
Bish, bash bosh, problem solved.
Of course it can be impounded, for that purpose always drive a 100 Euro smoker that is disposable.

keithclancy · 07-03-2012 08:58PM

Gatster wrote: »

Posted this before, still doesn't seem quite right:

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Audi/A7/3.0-tdi-/131287955495377/advert?channel=CARS

WTF

SHAROONNN ... SELL THE HORSE .. WERE GETTIN AN AUDI.

rebel.ranter · 07-03-2012 09:01PM

Gatster wrote: »

Posted this before, still doesn't seem quite right:

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Audi/A7/3.0-tdi-/131287955495377/advert?channel=CARS

And they wonder why there is no revenue coming in through the motor tax system! :rolleyes:

The most sickening thing about this is that only the wealthy can benefit from the "savings" (based on comparison with old cc based system). That to me smacks of inequality in the system.

Farmer Pudsey · 07-03-2012 09:03PM

Top Dog wrote: »

I'm still not seeing any suggestions - just a continued rant about the current system.

And there's plenty of tax avoidance/evasion. People weigh up the pro's & con's of it, and in many cases the risk is worth it to them when the cost of tax eclipses the value of their car.

There's also still plenty of foreign registered cars frequenting our roads - NONE of which contribute in the way of Motor tax. Put it on fuel - everyone contributes.

And yes, it most likely would be necessary to allow businesses to claim back vat or incentivise it in other ways if you're going to put the tax on the fuel, but there are ways and means to make it equitable and fair for everyone.

I wouldn't call it rant my point is I have no problem with car tax or vrt however I do not like the idea of reducing or getting rid of these taxes and adding it to the price of fuel as it adds cost to the ordinary worker if he has to drive to work as most do

Every one will not contribute equally if you add it to fuel the unemployed person who has not to travel to work has another reason to not take a job.

Also buisness can already cliam back the VAT on fuel however they cannot claim back the duty on fuel and any extra tax would have to go on as duty not VAT and the extra bit of tax from British cars etc would be more that counteracted by the loss of revenue by the additional cross border shopping as history has continually told us

If English cars are being driven by Irish Residants it is a enforcement problem

We have no car manfauctureing industury in Ireland so any benifit of new cars woulf benifit the German, French, British and Italian worker rather than the Irish worker

Farmer Pudsey · 07-03-2012 09:10PM

Gatster wrote: »

Posted this before, still doesn't seem quite right:

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Audi/A7/3.0-tdi-/131287955495377/advert?channel=CARS

I think this justs proves my point if more tax goes on fuel the Doctor etc will be able to buy it for 50,000 and every Joe Soap in country will give him 7.50 euro a week towards it

Huge hike in road tax as motor cash dries up

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