New Plans for Childrens Hospital on Coombe site

tempura · 03-03-2012 2:58pm #1

I think its an excellent site. Live near to it, is currently a complete waste of space. Has really good access to all parts of Dublin City and links to M50 etc.

Any thoughts ?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/overseas-investors-want-to-fund-childrens-hospital-on-coombe-site-3038548.html

Telchak · 03-03-2012 5:15pm

Were the board of the Coombe sitting on this until the Mater was refused permission, or has this idea only come about in the last few days?

Seems like a great idea, well thoutht out.

L1011 · 03-03-2012 8:11pm

Doesn't co-locate with an acute hospital
Access is poorer than any other suggested site to date
Coombe's buildings are in a wreck so even more funding would likely be required to bring this up to spec
Coombe was to relocate to the vacant space in Tallaght caused by the NCH moving to the Mater!

irishguy · 04-03-2012 9:11pm

If it can be built on the Mater site at the current size (the best plan IMO) then that should be done if not I would rather have it on a site that could have a research unit. A cut down version of the Mater plan would be silly (it would loose the research unit). I really dont see why ABP are trying to promote urban sprawl citys should be highrise I dont want 3 bed semis and 4 story buildings stretching across the width of Leinster with poor infrastructure.

Joko · 04-03-2012 11:13pm

irishguy wrote: »

If it can be built on the Mater site at the current size (the best plan IMO) then that should be done if not I would rather have it on a site that could have a research unit. A cut down version of the Mater plan would be silly (it would loose the research unit). I really dont see why ABP are trying to promote urban sprawl citys should be highrise I dont want 3 bed semis and 4 story buildings stretching across the width of Leinster with poor infrastructure.

It is silly big.

In the planned Mater hospital each child will be in a single room to themselves. That is ridiculous and a complete waste of resources.

L1011 · 04-03-2012 11:15pm

Joko wrote: »

In the planned Mater hospital each child will be in a single room to themselves. That is ridiculous and a complete waste of resources.

No, its absolutely and utterly essential for infection control.

Any new childrens hospital built in a first world country will be single rooms.

markpb · 04-03-2012 11:19pm

Joko wrote: »

It is silly big.

Oh noes, I can see a tall building in the city centre! Whatever will we do!?!

Is this really, genuinely a concern? If it was blocking the view of Custom House (like the Dart bridge does) I could see the problem. If it involved demolishing a row of Georgian houses (like ESB HQ), I could see the problem. If you could even see it poking out over Trinity (like the building behind Dublin Castle), I could agree with those concerns. But it's not any of those things - it's a tall building in a nondescript part of the city centre. What on earth is the problem architecturally? (I do understand peoples other concerns.)

Joko · 04-03-2012 11:26pm

markpb wrote: »

Oh noes, I can see a tall building in the city centre! Whatever will we do!?!

Is this really, genuinely a concern? If it was blocking the view of Custom House (like the Dart bridge does) I could see the problem but it's not. If it involved demolishing a row of Georgian houses (like ESB HQ), I could see the problem but again, it's not. Indeed, if you could see it poking out over Trinity (like the building that you can see from inside Dublin Castle), I could agree with those concerns. But it's not any of those things - it's a tall building in a nondescript part of the city centre.

You can see it towering over the main street in Ireland. It looks stupid big and disproportionate. Planning laws should be conservative and we should not bend them for this elephant.

L1011 · 04-03-2012 11:41pm

Joko wrote: »

You can see it towering over the main street in Ireland. It looks stupid big and disproportionate. Planning laws should be conservative and we should not bend them for this elephant.

Towering over O'Connell Street like, oh, The Spire?

starviewadams · 04-03-2012 11:44pm

I think it looks fine in the picture that's linked above,certainly better then the stupidly big piece of ugly metal that's sticking up out of Ireland's main street.I find it amazing that out of all the archetectural abominations in Dublin(Central Bank,ESB HQ,Civic Offices,New building beside Dublin Castle etc)people are moaning about and delaying the construction of an urgently needed national childrens hospital.

Building it at The Coombe is pointless as it needs to be co-located with an acute hospital.Only options are to build it at St.James(and start the designing,planning process all over again)or build it where it should be built,at The Mater.

markpb · 05-03-2012 12:19am

Joko wrote: »

Planning laws should be conservative

Protecting specific buildings and vistas, yes. But generally conservative - why on earth?

Sponge Bob · 05-03-2012 12:51am

MYOB wrote: »

No, its absolutely and utterly essential for infection control.

Any new childrens hospital built in a first world country will be single rooms.

Eh, thats because a parent stays in the room every night in a Childrens Hospital with their child if infection control protocol permits. This it normally does. Single rooms isolate family units more than diseases.

I am really not sure about the Coombe site even though the current one is pretty ancient (but near St James').

Out to the M50 I reckon...bring the Coombe out there and all seeing as the Rotunda and Holles St will be left behind in central Dublin.

L1011 · 05-03-2012 8:39am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Eh, thats because a parent stays in the room every night in a Childrens Hospital with their child if infection control protocol permits. This it normally does. Single rooms isolate family units more than diseases.

Its still for infection control whether or not the parents are there. The parents being there is no different to the kids being at home.

There were paediatric hospitals built with parent side-beds but on wards previously.

BrianD · 05-03-2012 10:16am

tempura wrote: »

I think its an excellent site. Live near to it, is currently a complete waste of space. Has really good access to all parts of Dublin City and links to M50 etc.

Any thoughts ?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/overseas-investors-want-to-fund-childrens-hospital-on-coombe-site-3038548.html

No better or worse than the Mater for transport and parking.

Where does the Coombe go when it's being built? I take it that it will have to be levelled?

Telchak · 05-03-2012 11:37am

MYOB wrote:

Doesn't co-locate with an acute hospital

Half a kilometer from James's. A lot better than most options.

MYOB wrote:

Coombe was to relocate to the vacant space in Tallaght caused by the NCH moving to the Mater!

No reason this plan would affect that plan

BrianD wrote:

No better or worse than the Mater for transport and parking.

Where does the Coombe go when it's being built? I take it that it will have to be levelled?

New parking will be provided on site, so I don't really see how parking is an issue. Maybe I'm missing something?

Definitely think it's better than the Mater for traffic! I've passed by the Coombe on the bus almost every weekday for the last couple of years, at wide ranging times of day. The area is never empty of cars, but I can't recall ever seeing crazy gridlock. As long as everyone doesn't approach it through Crumlin, the local roads should be able to take the extra cars. The N4 isn't a million miles away.

This building is proposed beside the Coombe, not on top of it. The renders show both buildings connected when the new one is finished.

dubhthach · 05-03-2012 11:46am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Eh, thats because a parent stays in the room every night in a Childrens Hospital with their child if infection control protocol permits. This it normally does. Single rooms isolate family units more than diseases.

I am really not sure about the Coombe site even though the current one is pretty ancient (but near St James').

Out to the M50 I reckon...bring the Coombe out there and all seeing as the Rotunda and Holles St will be left behind in central Dublin.

According to the OH the plan was/is to move Holles Street to St. Vincents site, they've been talking bout it for the last 10 years or so.

Sponge Bob · 05-03-2012 12:47pm

There are only 4 major maternity/midwifery training hospitals in the state. Holles/Rotunda/Coombe...and Galway. 3 are in Central Dublin where only one is really required.

Its only 25 years since pretty well everything in Dublin was inside the canals bar Vincents.

The Beaumont was Jervis Street and Tallaght was the Meath Hospital back then. High time we extracted a top class maternity and neonatal operation from the centre I should think.

markpb · 05-03-2012 1:00pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

High time we extracted a top class maternity and neonatal operation from the centre I should think.

Why?

dubhthach · 05-03-2012 3:00pm

markpb wrote: »

Why?

Well Holles street doesn't need to be in it's current location. Which is smack in the middle of officeland/governmental quarter in Dublin 2. Given the catchment area it covers it makes more sense co-locating it with St. Vincents. Which of course is what's on the drawing boards anyways. Unfortunately no doubt the crash in property value of the site will push that move out.

Tragedy · 05-03-2012 6:59pm

MYOB wrote: »

No, its absolutely and utterly essential for infection control.

No it isn't, dedicated isolation units have proven to be far more effective at controlling the spread of MRSA than changing to single rooms (or at least, this has been the experience in the UK and USA). A single room /=/ an isolation room.

Any new childrens hospital built in a first world country will be single rooms.

Indeed, but this is due to a large number of factors with infection control being but one. Studies on the benefits and disadvantages of single room design are generally positive, but always with the caveat that the evidence is mainly empirical and retrospective.

TrixIrl · 05-03-2012 7:16pm

I think the Coombe site sounds great - the positive reasons about the Mater Site apply to this also:

*Co-Location to an Acute Adult Hospital - It would be very close to St James & not a huge distance from Tallaght/Mater etc. The article also says the new building would include an adult hospital
*Transport - Space for 1000 car parking spaces (as many as the Mater) and very close to the Red Line Luas with several bus routes running right past the front door. Very easy to access from M50

But what makes it the better option imho is:
*Overseas funding available immediately on a 25 yr lease with the option to buy it back then - surely a good thing in these recessionary times
*Co-location with a maternity Unit means that pre-natal and neo-natal consultants are close at hand
*Planning - Its a 20.5 acre site which means lower height so An Bord Pleanala should be happy!

Just my 2 cents, and it is strange we've heard nothing about it till now but I definitely think it deserves consideration...

L1011 · 05-03-2012 7:22pm

Tragedy wrote: »

No it isn't, dedicated isolation units have proven to be far more effective at controlling the spread of MRSA than changing to single rooms (or at least, this has been the experience in the UK and USA). A single room /=/ an isolation room.

I'm well aware of what an isolation room is. I'm also, however, aware that having sufficient numbers of them and wards leads to a huge duplication of facilities.

Telchak wrote: »

No reason this plan would affect that plan

It rather would...

Telchak wrote: »

This building is proposed beside the Coombe, not on top of it. The renders show both buildings connected when the new one is finished.

Seeing as you seem to expect the Coombe to stay there. How, pray tell, can a hospital be in two places at once?

Building it beside the Coombe only for the Coombe to move means that any tiny advantages it had due to being adjacent to a maternity/infants hospital are gone.

Tragedy · 05-03-2012 7:25pm

MYOB wrote: »

I'm well aware of what an isolation room is. I'm also, however, aware that having sufficient numbers of them and wards leads to a huge duplication of facilities.

You don't seem to be aware of what one is as you seem to believe that a single room = an isolation unit. It isn't and you don't know what they are. Do you ever actually post from an informed viewpoint or do you just throw out whatever enters your head and hope no-one who actually knows something about the subject will respond?

L1011 · 05-03-2012 7:34pm

Tragedy wrote: »

You don't seem to be aware of what one is as you seem to believe that a single room = an isolation unit. It isn't and you don't know what they are. Do you ever actually post from an informed viewpoint or do you just throw out whatever enters your head and hope no-one who actually knows something about the subject will respond?

Do you do anything else on here other than try to attack my posts?

Telchak · 05-03-2012 9:59pm

MYOB wrote:

Seeing as you seem to expect the Coombe to stay there. How, pray tell, can a hospital be in two places at once?

My point was that building this will still free up space in Tallaght upon its completion, the Maternity hospital can stay or move thereafter. Building the hospital at the Coombe won't have any different an affect on that situation than at the building at the Mater.

trellheim · 05-03-2012 10:18pm

Knock Teresa's Gardens and it would make a little bit of sense, Still think it's friggin nuts putting this anywhere but on the M50

Carawaystick · 06-03-2012 11:41pm

The image posted upthread fails to take into account the hill/multistory development granted permission for the Cinema complex the corpo cpo'd of the owner and argued the original owner didn't have the ability to develop it properly.....
Which would block the view of the children's hospital.

All the people advocating building a hospital on the m50, how do you provide good public transport to this?
Or do families without cars not really matter?

Sponge Bob · 07-03-2012 12:47am

It would likely be beside the Luas.....whaddaya want, a TGV??

Amirani · 07-03-2012 1:44am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It would likely be beside the Luas.....whaddaya want, a TGV??

Numerous buses and potentially a future metro also. Why not co-locate with either Tallaght or Beaumont?

Sponge Bob · 07-03-2012 2:03am

either woul be fine but I think a colo with a Maternity woul be better.

I'll raise you a Coombe/Kiddies/Tallaght or a Beaumont/Rotunda/Kiddies so!

assuming they have the space in Beaumont and Tallaght that is.

L1011 · 07-03-2012 8:52am

Neither has space that is instantly available. Beaumont likely doesn't have it at all.

Blanchardstown does but the entire hospital there needs replacing and it was going to be downgraded anyway. Ditto Loughlinstown, add to that the the hospital is TINY.

D'Peoples Voice · 07-03-2012 2:32pm

trellheim wrote: »

Knock Teresa's Gardens and it would make a little bit of sense, Still think it's friggin nuts putting this anywhere but on the M50

completely agree, asking visitors to get a train, from say Tralee, to Heuston and then asking them to get a luas back out to the M50 is insane.
The more i hear people on the radio, the more I'm convinced that Irish people the only people going to a hospital are those driving the injured to hospital.
How many patients are transported from their local general hospital to a Dublin hospital via Ambulance at present? I would say a large number! So the amount of patients that are very badly injured being brought to hospital via car, would be relatively low.
Therefore we can assume the greatest percentage of travellers to hospitals are visitors - they need places to stay overnight while their loved once are in hospital, parking in pay-by-the-hour car parks are not feasible for many. We need to think of accommodation and access via our main train/bus stations!

Laydee · 08-03-2012 10:31pm

What about Grangegorman? Close to the Mater yet still on a big site? I hope they come to some decision about this soon.

L1011 · 09-03-2012 9:41am

Laydee wrote: »

What about Grangegorman? Close to the Mater yet still on a big site? I hope they come to some decision about this soon.

DIT project is going to go ahead there. Eventually.

monument · 09-03-2012 6:36pm

Joko wrote: »

It is silly big.

markpb wrote: »

Oh noes, I can see a tall building in the city centre! Whatever will we do!?!

dowlingm · 10-03-2012 4:32pm

Big new union building in City Centre - YES.
Big hospital - NO.

Okeydokey.

monument · 10-03-2012 4:43pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Big new union building in City Centre - YES.
Big hospital - NO.

Okeydokey.

For other things, are you not always on about the way they do things in Toronto? :pac:

dowlingm · 10-03-2012 8:25pm

monument

I'd love to recreate Hospital Row in Dublin - an IFSC for hospitals. It's the kind of thing the NPRF could be used to build on a central but hugely devalued site like the Glass Bottle site using idled construction crews with the existing hospital sites turned into museums and whatnot. While having our kid in Mount Sinai we participated in a Sick Kids Hospital organised study - easy to do when they are on the same stretch of road.

Oh wait - the NPRF was blown on the banks. Ah well.

monument · 10-03-2012 10:43pm

The Mater site is suposed to follow the same kind of model as Hospital Row, having diffrent hospitals grouped in one area.

dowlingm · 11-03-2012 6:09am

True, true, but Hospital Row has a subway line (University) underneath it and a parallel one (Yonge) a couple of hundred metres east of it, plus four streetcar lines running east west (501/504/505/506) and a streetcar-in-ROW a couple of hundred metres west (510 Spadina).

Mater has A now, BX-D later but no Metro and no date for Maynooth electrification to feed line D.

dowlingm · 11-03-2012 6:22am

One additional observation with respect to Hospital Row/Discovery District - Mount Sinai is at 700 University Avenue but the Ontario Power Generation building at 800 University (Princess Margaret Hospital - cancer research - is in between) has a couple of floors leased by Mount Sinai practitioners. That was where we had my wife's OB appointments, ultrasounds and blood work. Perhaps consideration could be given to splitting out some administrative or light medical facilities to a nearby mixed use building if it could reduce the footprint of the main building enough to placate ABP?

monument · 12-03-2012 2:17pm

dowlingm wrote: »

True, true, but Hospital Row has a subway line (University) underneath it and a parallel one (Yonge) a couple of hundred metres east of it, plus four streetcar lines running east west (501/504/505/506) and a streetcar-in-ROW a couple of hundred metres west (510 Spadina).

Mater has A now, BX-D later but no Metro and no date for Maynooth electrification to feed line D.

46A, 120, 38/A, 41s, 16 , 40s, 13, 11, 122 all stop beside the Mater (all under or well under 300m). The 140, 4, 9 and 83 also stop nearly by, around 560m.

Two intercity railway stations close by -- one 3km, the other around 2km. For the future, the Metro North station box is been put in place and Drumcondra Station isn't going anywhere. The bus routes and QBCs have some hope of being upgraded to BRT in meanwhile.

For bus and emergency access: There are bus lanes nearly the full way from the M50 to the Mater along the N1, N2, and N4. Even if you don't have blue lights no guard is going to try to fine somebody with a sick child in an emergency on their way to a hospital. There just isn't any major problems getting to the Mater or Temple Street, or the Rotunda.

The households with no cars in the Dublin City Council area accounts for 27% of such households nationally. In 2006 that was 77,281 households in the Dublin City Council are without cars. Areas closer to the city centre account for most these households. A city centre location is good for the thousands without cars in areas around Tallaght and Blanch, and elsewhere both around Dublin and further away, but locate at Tallaght or Blanch and bulk of these people have far longer journeys. This problem will just get worse as oil prices go up and up.

On staff travel: Mater has one of the best track records in the last few years of getting staff out of cars and on to their two feet, bikes, buses, trains etc. This just won't work half as well in a less accessible area and staff will be adding to traffic levels on a green field site.

coolperson05 · 12-03-2012 3:21pm

I agree - We should have learned from the mistakes of the boom about greenfield sites and urban sprawl. Lets at least try keep key infrastructure in the city centre! As was pointed alot of the country live within easy access to it, so placing it 2 miles off the M50, away from all transport links except cars seems irrational - remember with petrol hitting 2euro this year apparently...People will be glad of the buses and trains! Now, ABP/HSE - fix this!

dowlingm · 12-03-2012 4:44pm

monument - I yield! Being from Cork I was never very au fait with Dublin northside anyway, only visiting the odd Sunday in September

Wild Bill · 12-03-2012 10:14pm

I think this thread is a good argument for keeping conservationists and preservationists and urbanite myopics of all sorts well away from any decision-making when it comes to major infrastructural developments :cool:

One chap wants to bundle all the kids into a communal cupboards in order to get a low-rise hospital that isn't outside the Inner City - f*** the patients and their families, eh?

When we add the "no high-risers in the city centre" to the "no urban sprawl" folk - (both these preferences can often be found in the same dysfunctional mind, btw) - then we must always settle for third-rate solutions.

My own view?

As it's a national hospital it was daft to locate it anywhere other than on the M50; and build it big enough to have a world-class facility that values children's health ahead of anal architectural/urban development fetishes.

Wild Bill · 12-03-2012 10:18pm

And if you want public transport than somewhere near the Red Cow would be ideal.....Newlands Cross??

It may even have Metro West some day!

monument · 13-03-2012 2:06am

Wild Bill wrote: »

I think this thread is a good argument for keeping conservationists and preservationists and urbanite myopics of all sorts well away from any decision-making when it comes to major infrastructural developments :cool:

One chap wants to bundle all the kids into a communal cupboards in order to get a low-rise hospital that isn't outside the Inner City - f*** the patients and their families, eh?

When we add the "no high-risers in the city centre" to the "no urban sprawl" folk - (both these preferences can often be found in the same dysfunctional mind, btw) - then we must always settle for third-rate solutions.

My own view?

As it's a national hospital it was daft to locate it anywhere other than on the M50; and build it big enough to have a world-class facility that values children's health ahead of anal architectural/urban development fetishes.

Wow! Wild Bill swinging in and billing himself as the rationalist. So, funny, it it was not so sad. And just about breaking all the main rules on boards but trying to get away with it by not addressing anybody directly. Attack everybody in the thread and make out you're the great reasoned one. Forgot about dealing with the points people have made. More sad than funny really.

So, the Mater, Temple Street, or the Rotunda, currently opprate on the base of
"f*** the patients and their families," eh? Yes, no, maybe?

If you want to truly value childrens' health then you'd stop taking nonsence because of perceived convenience about an M50 site when co-location or tri-location is best for their health. But you can't see past perceived convenience.

Wild Bill wrote: »

And if you want public transport than somewhere near the Red Cow would be ideal.....Newlands Cross??

It may even have Metro West some day!

Riddle me this -- how do you get from Blanch to Newlands Cross on public transport? How about for example from Finglas, Ballymun, Coolock or Shankill to Newlands Cross by public transport?

So you want to -- in your words -- "f*** the patients and their families" of the 77,000 households in the DCC area alone who have no car, is that right?

And for those children and families relying on the train from Cork, Galway, Mayo, Sligo and elsewhere, you want them to go into the city and then back out to Newlands Cross and back into the city again?

Waiting for Metro West! They might as well be Waiting for Godot!

sydthebeat · 14-03-2012 12:40pm

locating ANY new national infrastructure within the environs of inner city dublin is simply illogical due to the inaccessibility of the location.

The idea that anyone coming from anywhere west or south in the country would actually have to go as far as the main thoroughfare in the countrys capital, before having public transport access to this hospital is clearly non-sensical.

Paint it however you want but the mater site is ridiculously in accessible to the vast majority of the country.

the powers that be brazenly ignored the frustration of the majority of people in this country with the mater site proposal and went ahead spending millions of taxpayers money on this white (slightly silver glazed) elephant which was plainly politically motivated.

Thank god the An Bord Pleana saw sense and did the right thing.

It just goes to show the contempt of the political classes when Fianna Fail called for the decision of the bord to be ignored....... :rolleyes:

monument · 14-03-2012 1:54pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

locating ANY new national infrastructure within the environs of inner city dublin is simply illogical due to the inaccessibility of the location.

Err... the city centre is one of the most accessibility locations in the country for roads, rail, bus, and the very important accessibility to other hospitals and other services.

sydthebeat wrote: »

The idea that anyone coming from anywhere west or south in the country would actually have to go as far as the main thoroughfare in the countrys capital, before having public transport access to this hospital is clearly non-sensical.

Any site at the M50 or further out would have far worse public transport access.

sydthebeat wrote: »

Paint it however you want but the mater site is ridiculously in accessible to the vast majority of the country.

You or others saying it does not make it true.

40% (and growing) of the population lives within the Greater Dublin Area and 30% within Co Dublin alone, and the majority of the major roads, railways and intercity bus routes all lead to central Dublin.

The Mater is located where the N3 and N2 meet, right beside the N1, and less than 2km from the N4. It's just over 3km from the mouth of the Port Tunnel.

It's under 2km from Connolly Station‎ and Busaras‎, it's 3km from Heuston Station‎, and less than 1km from Drumcondra Station‎.

sydthebeat · 14-03-2012 2:14pm

monument wrote: »

Err... the city centre is one of the most accessibility locations in the country for roads, rail, bus, and the very important accessibility to other hospitals and other services.
.

currently... any one coming from M7 side (which would be the majority of the country would have to...

drive to red cow park and ride... luas to connolly (40 mins)....average 40 minute wait for rail to drumcondra (5 mins)... and then a 10 minute walk.

do you think that is acceptable for anyone in the country to access its national hospital?

giving distances to national roads is pointless because car accessibility to dublin inner city is normally unreliable to meet any appointment, eternally frustrating and parking is non existant. Ask anyone who has to travel to the Coombe what driving to inner city dublin is like!!

As far as i can see the only reason NOT to locate it external to the M50 is because of the lack of public transport... however the luas red line is prime here for access.
you talk about dublin residents who havent cars as transport, i would purport that in the vast majority these are singletons, students, or elderly and NOT the target familys with children who this hospital is aimed for.

markpb · 14-03-2012 2:18pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

As far as i can see the only reason NOT to locate it external to the M50 is because of the lack of public transport... however the luas red line is prime here for access.

One tram line is not comprehensive public transport.

you talk about dublin residents who havent cars as transport, i would purport that in the vast majority these are singletons, students, or elderly and NOT the target familys with children who this hospital is aimed for.

Perhaps, but now you're guessing and making suppositions to agree with your argument but without any proof to back them up. People have shown the figures of people living in or near the city centre an the number of people living there who have no car. Where are your figures?

New Plans for Childrens Hospital on Coombe site

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