Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Tox56 · 05-03-2012 11:59pm

I came late and though he had deleted some vile, horrendously insulting rant against Kidney, but it turns out to be that mildly opinionated, but restrained, tweet. Talk about a storm in a teacup.

RoundBox11 · 06-03-2012 12:23am

Its still there i'm pretty sure.

fitz · 06-03-2012 12:33am

Tox56 wrote: »

I came late and though he had deleted some vile, horrendously insulting rant against Kidney, but it turns out to be that mildly opinionated, but restrained, tweet. Talk about a storm in a teacup.

Absolutely, nothing really in the comment, don't see what the big fuss is about...

jackcee · 06-03-2012 12:47am

Reading this thread makes some things quite clear.

The vast (not all) majority of contributors have no idea about McCarthy's game.

The vast majority of contributors seem to have no idea of O'Leary's current form with Munster - nor any acknowledgement of quite a change in O'Leary's game.

With regard to O'Callaghan, it reminds me of the of the personalised attacks on Mick Molloy in the 60/70's. Something similar to today, he was the grafter alongside McBride. Each year, Joe Sherwood used to raise his blood pressure and waste more ink than O'Snodaig fulminating about Molloy's inclusion. When eventually, Molloy was dropped our scrum collapsed. Does anybody notice that when Donnacha Ryan comes on, POC has to move across to the tight head side - for a very good reason.

BTW, they had to bring back Molloy - much to the chagrin of the bar room experts.

JRant · 06-03-2012 1:08am

jackcee wrote: »

Reading this thread makes some things quite clear.

The vast (not all) majority of contributors have no idea about McCarthy's game.

The vast majority of contributors seem to have no idea of O'Leary's current form with Munster - nor any acknowledgement of quite a change in O'Leary's game.

With regard to O'Callaghan, it reminds me of the of the personalised attacks on Mick Molloy in the 60/70's. Something similar to today, he was the grafter alongside McBride. Each year, Joe Sherwood used to raise his blood pressure and waste more ink than O'Snodaig fulminating about Molloy's inclusion. When eventually, Molloy was dropped our scrum collapsed. Does anybody notice that when Donnacha Ryan comes on, POC has to move across to the tight head side - for a very good reason.

BTW, they had to bring back Molloy - much to the chagrin of the bar room experts.

I think it's fair to say most posters would have Touhy, McCarthy and Ryan with POC out. DOC has been a great servant but he hasn't the legs at this stage of his career and there are plenty of players who are ahead of him. And I don't buy this scrummaging thing either, Munster have been doing just fine in the scrum this season without him there.

roycon · 06-03-2012 1:31am

jackcee wrote: »

Reading this thread makes some things quite clear.

The vast (not all) majority of contributors have no idea about McCarthy's game.

The vast majority of contributors seem to have no idea of O'Leary's current form with Munster - nor any acknowledgement of quite a change in O'Leary's game.

With regard to O'Callaghan, it reminds me of the of the personalised attacks on Mick Molloy in the 60/70's. Something similar to today, he was the grafter alongside McBride. Each year, Joe Sherwood used to raise his blood pressure and waste more ink than O'Snodaig fulminating about Molloy's inclusion. When eventually, Molloy was dropped our scrum collapsed. Does anybody notice that when Donnacha Ryan comes on, POC has to move across to the tight head side - for a very good reason.

BTW, they had to bring back Molloy - much to the chagrin of the bar room experts.

i agree with your first two points but for your third point about 95% of people posting weren't even alive back then so your pissing into the wind

roycon · 06-03-2012 1:35am

JRant wrote: »

I think it's fair to say most posters would have Touhy, McCarthy and Ryan with POC out. DOC has been a great servant but he hasn't the legs at this stage of his career and there are plenty of players who are ahead of him. And I don't buy this scrummaging thing either, Munster have been doing just fine in the scrum this season without him there.

Add toner to that list. ryan should be a nailed down starter and then its a toss up between the other 4 really - doc, touhy,toner, mccarthy - cant complain if any of them get picked.

Clegg · 06-03-2012 1:57am

jackcee wrote: »

Reading this thread makes some things quite clear.

The vast (not all) majority of contributors have no idea about McCarthy's game.

The vast majority of contributors seem to have no idea of O'Leary's current form with Munster - nor any acknowledgement of quite a change in O'Leary's game.

I don't have a problem with Mc Carthy coming in. I do have a problem with the fact that we've left a talented 26 year old lock out of the squad (Tuohy) and instead have chosen a 30 year old. This years 6 Nations is already over for us. We should be looking to build for the future. They both have the same amount of experience at international level anyway.

O'Leary's current form is still bad. I saw him play for Munster and he was a bit better than he has been in recent games but his problems still remain the same. Slow loopy pass, inaccurate passing and crabbing way too much when running with ball in hand. He hasn't hit an acceptable level that would warrant his inclusion at international level. He hasn't been at that level since 2010.

its_phil · 06-03-2012 2:44am

Clegg wrote: »

We should be looking to build for the future.

This statement irritates the crap out of me. This is a world cup seedings year and getting ranking points is very very important for the future. Best team has to be out.

Clegg · 06-03-2012 3:23am

its_phil wrote: »

This statement irritates the crap out of me. This is a world cup seedings year and getting ranking points is very very important for the future. Best team has to be out.

That would be great if Kidney was picking the best team. But he obviously isn't. If he was then DOC would be shipped out of the 22 and TOL wouldn't be within an asses roar of the panel. And do you honestly believe that Gordon Darcy deserves to be playing for Ireland anymore. He's experienced and was once a great player. But experience counts for nothing if you're playing poorly.

People like to criticise Paddy Wallace but I have no problem in saying that he's a better 12 than Darcy now. At the very least we should be looking at Mc Fadden in the 12 jersey. But thats not what is happening. We aren't selecting our best team by any means.

rrpc · 06-03-2012 8:35am

Clegg wrote: »

That would be great if Kidney was picking the best team. But he obviously isn't. If he was then DOC would be shipped out of the 22 and TOL wouldn't be within an asses roar of the panel. And do you honestly believe that Gordon Darcy deserves to be playing for Ireland anymore. He's experienced and was once a great player. But experience counts for nothing if you're playing poorly.

People like to criticise Paddy Wallace but I have no problem in saying that he's a better 12 than Darcy now. At the very least we should be looking at Mc Fadden in the 12 jersey. But thats not what is happening. We aren't selecting our best team by any means.

You still don't get it do you?

These guys are all picked for their defensive abilities, it has nothing to do with what attacking threat they represent. We are playing a defensive game plan and will be as long as Deccie is in charge. How many indications of this do you need? That we have no backs coach, that we pick a big strong SH over a smaller, quicker attacking one, That having built a lead in the first half using a rush defense we then revert to a more conservative drift defense in the second half, that our defense coach is also our attack coach...

touts · 06-03-2012 9:04am

Deleted User wrote: »

POC
Ryan
Tuohy
McCarthy
Toner
.
.
.
DOC
MOD
Cullen

Would be how I see the current crop of second rows. Anyone see it differently?

I think we can forget about MOD and Cullen. Both great servants who were unlucky to have a great player like POC ahead of them but their time is gone but I'd prefer to see young lads like Nagle in there.

I'm not sure about Toner. He just strikes me as a little too tall and that could unbalance the scrum. He must be 4 or 5 inches taller than every other second row. In that way he reminds me of Buckley in the frontrow. Just that little bit too tall and that unbalanced things. Great talent though and I'd say it's an intimidating experience to see him standing beside you in a line out.

irishbucsfan · 06-03-2012 9:16am

touts wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

POC
Ryan
Tuohy
McCarthy
Toner
.
.
.
DOC
MOD
Cullen

Would be how I see the current crop of second rows. Anyone see it differently?

I think we can forget about MOD and Cullen. Both great servants who were unlucky to have a great player like POC ahead of them but their time is gone but I'd prefer to see young lads like Nagle in there.

I'm not sure about Toner. He just strikes me as a little too tall and that could unbalance the scrum. He must be 4 or 5 inches taller than every other second row. In that way he reminds me of Buckley in the frontrow. Just that little bit too tall and that unbalanced things. Great talent though and I'd say it's an intimidating experience to see him standing beside you in a line out.

Richie Gray is 5 or 6 inches taller than Alistair Kellock and that doesn't harm them excelling together.

It really wouldnt make a massive difference. Leinsters scrum is good with Toner in it.

I wouldnt have Toner in our squad because I think POC, Ryan, Tuohy and McCarthy are all better, but not by much. And eventually I'd say Toners lineout play could well make him a preferred option to one of those (POC and McCarthy are no spring chickens either).

GerM · 06-03-2012 9:27am

In fairness, Jim Hamilton, Ally Kellock and Richie Gray are separated by about 2 inches. Hamilton and Kellock are both monsters.

irishbucsfan · 06-03-2012 9:31am

GerM wrote: »

In fairness, Jim Hamilton, Ally Kellock and Richie Gray are separated by about 2 inches. Hamilton and Kellock are both monsters.

Yes that's right actually. Bizarre I checked his height a few days ago and somehow cane to the conclusion he was much shorter!

I still don't accept Toners height is an issue. Neither was Buckleys (TH leads the hit anyway!), he was just brutal. If anything having someone of Toners weight would be a boost in the scrum.

Webbs · 06-03-2012 10:03am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes that's right actually. Bizarre I checked his height a few days ago and somehow cane to the conclusion he was much shorter!

I still don't accept Toners height is an issue. Neither was Buckleys (TH leads the hit anyway!), he was just brutal. If anything having someone of Toners weight would be a boost in the scrum.

Agree with you regarding Toner, Charteris is only an inch shorter and packs down with AWJ.
Now maybe Charteris WC was an aberration but he seems to have really stepped up a gear as a second row and doesnt look so much like a demented giraffe anymore, while Toner still looks a bit ungainly.

JRant · 06-03-2012 10:07am

roycon wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

I think it's fair to say most posters would have Touhy, McCarthy and Ryan with POC out. DOC has been a great servant but he hasn't the legs at this stage of his career and there are plenty of players who are ahead of him. And I don't buy this scrummaging thing either, Munster have been doing just fine in the scrum this season without him there.

Add toner to that list. ryan should be a nailed down starter and then its a toss up between the other 4 really - doc, touhy,toner, mccarthy - cant complain if any of them get picked.

Ryan has shown enough in his cameos and his form this season to earn a starting berth. McCarthy and Touhy are both in great form as well, it was probably down to McCarthy's defense that he got the nod. Both are playing at a far higher level than DOC and should be in the 22. Wrt Toner, I'd say he has the makings of a quality operator. He has the height for the lineout, has the bulk for the scrum and started to up his intensity big time this season. He's starting to knock lads on there arse when carrying ball with the odd offload as well. It's still a bit early for him yet for International but he's coming along nicely. It's a lovely problem for the coach to have strenght in depth, if only we had one who looked outside his inner circle.

lologram · 06-03-2012 10:15am

Irish Times article this morning on O'Connell being out for the remainder of the 6 Nations. I thought to myself that surely the Irish Times would discuss the potential for a certain Ulster lock. A bit of discourse never hurt anyone eh? It'd be nice if the team wasn't a foregone conclusion, right?

Ctrl+F 'Tuohy' gave... nothing.

Nice to see the Ireland squad is not a closed shop and players are picked on form. :rolleyes:

JRant · 06-03-2012 10:24am

lologram wrote: »

Irish Times article this morning on O'Connell being out for the remainder of the 6 Nations. I thought to myself that surely the Irish Times would discuss the potential for a certain Ulster lock. A bit of discourse never hurt anyone eh? It'd be nice if the team wasn't a foregone conclusion, right?

Ctrl+F 'Tuohy' gave... nothing.

Nice to see the Ireland squad is not a closed shop and players are picked on form. :rolleyes:

For the most part players are in there on form but we're going to have problems in the secondrow and midfield if players are blooded in soon. The likes of Darcy, DOC ,POC aren't going to play forever and we need to see what others can do.

JustinDee · 06-03-2012 10:51am

JRant wrote: »

For the most part players are in there on form but we're going to have problems in the secondrow and midfield if players are blooded in soon. The likes of Darcy, DOC ,POC aren't going to play forever and we need to see what others can do.

Once RWC2015 seedings are sorted, experiment all you like. Until then one word counts: results.

06-03-2012 10:53am

JustinDee wrote: »

Once RWC2015 seedings are sorted, experiment all you like. Until then one word counts: results.

I haven't had a chance to look at the dynamics of the seedings Justin, but do you have a breakdown of what would have to happen for us to drop X places? Or rise X places?

Cheers

desertcircus · 06-03-2012 11:09am

JustinDee wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

For the most part players are in there on form but we're going to have problems in the secondrow and midfield if players are blooded in soon. The likes of Darcy, DOC ,POC aren't going to play forever and we need to see what others can do.

Once RWC2015 seedings are sorted, experiment all you like. Until then one word counts: results.

Except seeing the two as distinct and separate things is a serious problem. Prizing results over all else is the reason we have no real idea whether to choose McCarthy, Tuohy or Toner when POC gets injured, and the reason the one selected will have virtually no international experience before taking to the second row in a game that could seriously impact on 2015.

Annabella1 · 06-03-2012 11:09am

getting a bit concerned about Scotland game....their line out is a real weapon and was the main reason they won two years ago in Croke Park.I recall that Best's throwing was poor that day.Scotland will definitely target our 'new' lineout.There may be an argument to include POM at 7 as a line out option(??)

justsomebloke · 06-03-2012 11:18am

JustinDee wrote: »

Once RWC2015 seedings are sorted, experiment all you like. Until then one word counts: results.

yes but are we actually getting results. With a better blooding policy chances are we may have beaten Wales and France. So from where I stand we are sacrificing results for results

OldRio · 06-03-2012 11:47am

justsomebloke wrote: »

yes but are we actually getting results. With a better blooding policy chances are we may have beaten Wales and France. So from where I stand we are sacrificing results for results

+1
I wonder if the lack of blooding younger players will be the downfall of Kidney?

JRant · 06-03-2012 11:58am

JustinDee wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

For the most part players are in there on form but we're going to have problems in the secondrow and midfield if players are blooded in soon. The likes of Darcy, DOC ,POC aren't going to play forever and we need to see what others can do.

Once RWC2015 seedings are sorted, experiment all you like. Until then one word counts: results.

I'd somewhat agree with that train of thought, however we have real options in the secondrow that we're not utilizing. Both McCarthy and Touhy should be getting more 6N's experience. Not to mention Ryan being undercooked at this level, experience wise.

Foxtrol · 06-03-2012 12:24pm

OldRio wrote: »

+1
I wonder if the lack of blooding younger players will be the downfall of Kidney?

No, like Munster he’ll get out and leave the next coach having to sort out the mess he leaves behind him due to his short sightedness.

Zzippy · 06-03-2012 12:49pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Once RWC2015 seedings are sorted, experiment all you like. Until then one word counts: results.

Oh that's alright then! :rolleyes:

Problem is, one or two injuries and we haven't got replacements with any experience = much less chance of getting those all-important results your employers crave...

rrpc · 06-03-2012 1:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I haven't had a chance to look at the dynamics of the seedings Justin, but do you have a breakdown of what would have to happen for us to drop X places? Or rise X places?

Cheers

We are at 80.3 only .02 ranking points above Argentina (80.28) who are in eighth place. Any loss would drop us below them into 9th.

Winning against Scotland will at best only get us to 80.5 or 80.6 because they are so far below us in ranking points and we're at home.

A good result against England would help (a lot), but it's not guaranteed.

CatFromHue · 06-03-2012 1:14pm

rrpc wrote: »

We are at 80.3 only .02 ranking points above Argentina (80.28) who are in eighth place. Any loss would drop us below them into 9th.

Winning against Scotland will at best only get us to 80.5 or 80.6 because they are so far below us in ranking points and we're at home.

A good result against England would help (a lot), but it's not guaranteed.

Ireland are 7th, Arg 8th, and Tonga are 9th on 76.63. If we win our remaining 6 Nations games I can't see us dropping out of the top 8. Even losing all three games away to NZ wouldn't affect us too badly considering they're at home and are ranked no.1 in the world.

I don't know who we're playing next Autumn but if we win away to Eng (they're ahead of us in the rankings and they're the home team) we should be in a good position come then.

Also is the team announced today for Saturday's game?

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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