Should Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowen be put on trial?

Crann na Beatha · 05-03-2012 01:01PM

This post has been deleted.

Doc Ruby · 05-03-2012 01:04PM

Nobody's responsible for nathin

€650 million spent on unrealised projects

€30m

Children’s hospital
Some €30 million has been spent by the hospital board – mainly in fees to architects, engineers and other consultants or experts – in progressing its plans. The Government says a revised plan will be produced in the coming months.
€42m

Dart Underground
Plans and land acquisition for the Dart Underground have cost millions, but the project has been delayed indefinitely under the new capital spending plans.
€50m

Media Lab Europe
The high-technology “seed bed”, based in Dublin’s Liberties, was run jointly by the government and Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and was one of Mr Ahern’s most favoured projects. Founded in 2000, it went into liquidation a few years later, with consultants describing its output as “dismal”, “surprisingly weak” and “mediocre”.
€130m
PPARS
The HSE’s information technology project started small, at an estimated cost of €9 million in 1997, and ballooned to a cost of €130 million in 2004, before being put on hold by the Health Service Executive in 2007.
€55m

E-voting
Martin Cullen ordered more than 700 of the machines at a cost of €51 million, only to have them placed in storage in 2004 when security concerns emerged. Attempts to sell them have so far been unsuccessful.
€1.5m

Hospital co-location
Almost €1.5 million was paid in legal and financial costs associated with the now abandoned plans to develop co-located private hospitals. Project agreements for each of these hospitals expired in March 2011.
€44m

Decentralisation
Millions have been spent on acquiring sites for the Government’s decentralisation programme in locations where plans to transfer public service offices and State agencies have been either postponed or axed.
€18m Metro West
Millions has been spent on the design of this section of the Metro. It, too, has been shelved indefinitely as a result of cutbacks to capital spending plans.
€150m
Metro North
The decision not to proceed with the Metro North rail project as part of the 2012-2016 capital investment programme will cost the State more than €150 millionincluding compensation to the project bidders.
€100m

Bertie Bowl
Millions were spent on consultancy fees and the clearances of the Abbotstown development in preparation for a national stadium. Political opposition from Fianna Fáil’s coalition partners, the PDs, ultimately scuppered the project, although the FAI went on to relocate its headquarters at the site.
€42m
Thornton Hall
The Government spent €30 million acquiring land for the Thornton Hall “superprison”, which has been delayed indefinitely. A further €12 million has been spent on original plans for the prison and the Central Mental Hospital. Both designs have since been scrapped. Plans for a scaled-down version of the prison have also been long-fingered.
. . . and what €650 million could buy

185 SCHOOLS
+1 CHILDREN’S HOSPITAL
+1.5 AVIVA STADIUMS
+15 MILES OF LUAS TRACK

no1beemerfan · 05-03-2012 01:04PM

What sickened me was the amount of twenty/thirty somethings that were at the FF ard-feis on saturday. (Going by news reports).

Plenty of people should be put on trial but to be honest I doubt some ever will.

wexie · 05-03-2012 01:08PM

no1beemerfan wrote: »

What sickened me was the amount of twenty/thirty somethings that were at the FF ard-feis on saturday.

Are you sure they weren't part of the 20.000 reported to have attended the working abroad expo which was also on at the RDS?

ilovesleep · 05-03-2012 01:32PM

stevenmu wrote: »

Of course they should be put on trial, if someone can provide evidence of them committing a crime.

Negligence?

With negligence, there must be:
A duty of care
A breach of this duty
A suffering or loss due to this breach

Now we'll take Bertie Ahern as an example here.

He, has taoseach was responsible for running and caring for this country.

There was a breach of care when in 2000 he ignored a warning from the ESRI that we were heading for ruins with his policies.

Today we now see failed banks, due to running out of control and a huge deficit due to the banks and also the giveaway budgets. The banks fed a property boom, the government rode on the back of this with give away budgets. The whole thing collaspes and we're not tanking in enough money.

The suffering, loss and damage is on us the irish people with a failed economy in which we will see many drastic impacts due to this. Such as:

Financial stresses and strains with incomes reducing due to unemployment, reduced hours but outgoings rising due to extra taxes and bills.
Any many more other impacts which I couldn't be bothered right now going into.

ArmaniJeanss · 05-03-2012 01:37PM

ilovesleep wrote: »

Negligence?

With negligence, there must be:
A duty of care
A breach of this duty
A suffering or loss due to this breach

Now we'll take Bertie Ahern as an example here.

He, has taoseach was responsible for running and caring for this country.

There was a breach of care when in 2000 he ignored a warning from the ESRI that we were heading for ruins with his policies.

If it becomes a criminal offence to ignore the ESRI, then you quickly have a situation where the (unlected) ESRI are actually the government.
Which may not actually be a bad thing but I doubt it's what you intend.

Motorist · 05-03-2012 01:39PM

As much as I'd like to see MaFFia pay for ruining the country, this thread is just fanciful nonsense.

WhatNowForUs? · 05-03-2012 01:39PM

Anyone wrote: »

Is stupidity and incompetence a crime now?

In certain circumstances yes.

Biggins · 05-03-2012 01:42PM

Instead of strengthening the finance regulations (which was being called for by a number of bodies), he actually loosed them.
And of course its was his mates in the "Drumcondra Mafia" (not to mention "The Golden Circle") that benefited (and himself quietly?) from his very own actions?

SeaFields · 05-03-2012 01:42PM

no1beemerfan wrote: »

What sickened me was the amount of twenty/thirty somethings that were at the FF ard-feis on saturday. (Going by news reports).

yeah, mehole martin was attempting some optics for the press. While he was giving his speech there were lots of young people, in suits that were too big for them, in the background loudly applauding. He's another one that is bloody deluded.

cloptrop · 05-03-2012 01:45PM

If Tommy the chocolate factory worker ran out of space to store his chocolate one day and decided to stick it in another room up the hall that seemed empty , just stuck a couple of pallets in the corner and sure nobody will notice its Friday evening and he was gonna move it monday morning when the trucks took some stuff out of the way.
Put poor Tommy didnt realise that a yoga instructor rented that room on weekends to do bikram yoga classes.
Chaos ensues and Tommy comes in monday to a room of melted chocolate.
Should Tommy face trial or just be deported.

SEPT 23 1989 · 05-03-2012 01:47PM

Trials take too long

Motorist · 05-03-2012 01:47PM

cloptrop wrote: »

If Tommy the chocolate factory worker ran out of space to store his chocolate one day and decided to stick it in another room up the hall that seemed empty , just stuck a couple of pallets in the corner and sure nobody will notice its Friday evening and he was gonna move it monday morning when the trucks took some stuff out of the way.
Put poor Tommy didnt realise that a yoga instructor rented that room on weekends to do bikram yoga classes.
Chaos ensues and Tommy comes in monday to a room of melted chocolate.
Should Tommy face trial or just be deported.

He could face trial for trespassing into the yoga studio and for criminal damage caused by the melted chocolate.

KeithAFC · 05-03-2012 01:49PM

If Bertie Ahern goes on trial, then a lot of people in Sinn Fein will also need to go on trial for committing war crimes.

Can't punish one person and forget the others.

cloptrop · 05-03-2012 01:51PM

Motorist wrote: »

He could face trial for trespassing into the yoga studio and for criminal damage caused by the melted chocolate.

What if it was his first day and he was on the jobsbridge sceme .

4zn76tysfajdxp · 05-03-2012 01:52PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

If Bertie Ahern goes on trial, then a lot of people in Sinn Fein will also need to go on trial for committing war crimes.

Can't punish one person and forget the others.

You keep fighting the good fight Keith. :pac:

the culture of deference · 05-03-2012 01:53PM

wexie wrote: »

And if it did get to that stage it would end up being dragged out for years and years and mugs like yours truely would be stung for (tens of) millions of legal charges which would never be recouped.

Good point. The current tribunals are ending soon. Those poor lawyers on €2,250 a day (or is it 2,500 per day;)), some who work monday to saturday, and some sundays, and never take holidays.

krudler wrote: »

Should be when youre in charge of an entire counties finances and future, we' sack a soccer manager for losing a few games in a row, country wrecking politicians are rewarded with pensions

Personally speaking Bertie is untouchable, he obviously has dirt on everyone, he is like hoover was in the 50's.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Indeed, the tribunals were put in place by politicians so they wouldn't have to face a judge. They are a PR exercise, one hand washing the other.

While the guards couldn't be prompted to start an investigation, I'd say a group of concerned citizens would be well within their rights to sue the living daylights out of Ahern, Cowen and the rest of the spivs in an effort to get back their tax money on the grounds of negligence. It would probably be a complete circus but if enough people chipped in the cost per person would be minimal. Prison sentences would be unlikely to result but it would wipe the smirk off a few faces.

I think the only way this would work is if Ahern was kidnapped and tortured US Guantanamo style to get his secrets, otherwise the lying crook would waffle his way out of it.

ilovesleep wrote: »

Negligence?

With negligence, there must be:
A duty of care
A breach of this duty
A suffering or loss due to this breach

Now we'll take Bertie Ahern as an example here.

He, has taoseach was responsible for running and caring for this country.

There was a breach of care when in 2000 he ignored a warning from the ESRI that we were heading for ruins with his policies.

Today we now see failed banks, due to running out of control and a huge deficit due to the banks and also the giveaway budgets. The banks fed a property boom, the government rode on the back of this with give away budgets. The whole thing collaspes and we're not tanking in enough money.

The suffering, loss and damage is on us the irish people with a failed economy in which we will see many drastic impacts due to this. Such as:

Financial stresses and strains with incomes reducing due to unemployment, reduced hours but outgoings rising due to extra taxes and bills.
Any many more other impacts which I couldn't be bothered right now going into.

I agree, I also believe that any politician who served in government up to 2008 should be disallowed from continuing in politics.

We need untainted people.

Fine gael/labour sat on their arse the whole way through this, FF are fcuked and should be disbanded.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 05-03-2012 01:53PM

cloptrop wrote: »

What if it was his first day and he was on the jobsbridge sceme .

What kind of a chocolate factory rents out rooms to yoga classes?

Dyr · 05-03-2012 01:55PM

The trial would cost the tax payer 60 million lids. bertie and brian would wind up with costs plus damages.

The system works.

Dyr · 05-03-2012 01:55PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

If Bertie Ahern goes on trial, then a lot of people in Sinn Fein will also need to go on trial for committing war crimes.

Can't punish one person and forget the others.

You'd have to admit there was a war first

LuckyLloyd · 05-03-2012 01:56PM

You wouldn't really want to live in a society where this was done. You think you would, sure - but you don't want your wish to come true in this case.

KeithAFC wrote: »

If Bertie Ahern goes on trial, then a lot of people in Sinn Fein will also need to go on trial for committing war crimes.

Can't punish one person and forget the others.

Cool story bro.

mike65 · 05-03-2012 01:56PM

I wish people would stop drawing parallels between Tribunals and a criminal trial. Quite different undertakings a on quite different basis.

yuppies · 05-03-2012 01:56PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkvWVJ4XOXk

Bertie still has his fans!

Nothingbetter2d · 05-03-2012 01:57PM

should they? yes

will they? no the get big fat pensions instead

later12 · 05-03-2012 01:57PM

mike65 wrote: »

Today Icelands Prime Minister of 2008 going to trail having been charged with
failure to protect the counties finanaces

Great.

But that's not a criminal offence in Ireland.

It's not enough simply to disagree with an individual's actions or a government's policy to insist that they must be put on trial. You have to show than an offence was committed.

If anyone knows of an offence having been committed contrary to the law as it stands, go to the Gardai or the relevant authority.

But no; if somebody has not committed an offence, or is not charged with impugning the law based on reasonable suspicion of having committed an offence, then the state has no business putting such an individual on trial.

Biggins · 05-03-2012 01:59PM

yuppies wrote: »

Bertie still has his fans!

On the whole it looks like, aged ones.

homerjay2005 · 05-03-2012 01:59PM

unfortunately being a clown and an inept w*nker isnt a criminal offence and therefore, they wont be put in jail.

bertie may yet be done for something, though unlikely. i doubt cowan ever did anything wrong, he just was a fool.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

€650 million spent on unrealised projects

in all fairness though, a huge chuck of the above are "on hold", the majority of which is pure and simple - the money ran out.

the payment scheme and the evoting though, are bad enough to have half the department for finance and health, put in jail.

KeithAFC · 05-03-2012 02:00PM

Eduardo Calm Cue wrote: »

You keep fighting the good fight Keith. :pac:

Till the end. But it is a point which people in the Irish Republic do need to realise when it comes to putting people like Ahern before the courts.

Fighting Irish · 05-03-2012 02:01PM

Its a hard one, we voted them in and most of us loved that we could borrow endless amounts of money

Son Of A Vidic · 05-03-2012 02:06PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Trials take too long

Well I did suggest option A or B.

Should Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowen be put on trial?

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