Should Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowen be put on trial?

mike65

Today Icelands Prime Minister of 2008 going to trail having been charged with
failure to protect the counties finanaces

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/05/iceland-pm-charged-crisis

While landing all the legal blame on one person is of course both harsh and foolish is the basic idea right?

Is it time that Bertie Ahern, Brian Cowen, John Hurley (governor of Cetral bank) and Patrick Neary (Financial Regulator) were charged with negligence?

Biggins

Absolutely.
No question!

El Weirdo

Should they? Yes.

Will they? No.

cournioni

This is Ireland.

Seachmall

Start prosecuting politicians for incompetence and we'll soon run out of politicians.

fishy fishy

does a bear poo poo in the woods?

NinjaK

No point, they are already guilty. Guillotine them

Anyone

Is stupidity and incompetence a crime now?

Run_to_da_hills

This is Ireland. People like that get promoted.

Outkast_IRE

Seachmall wrote: »

Start prosecuting politicians for incompetence and we'll soon run out of politicians.

no we wont we will just be left with the really corrupt ones who hide it really well like in the United States and all these senate commities which can investigate people .

starbelgrade

Biggins wrote: »

Absolutely.
No question!

Ah come on Biggins - Micheal Martin apologised yesterday for his party's sins. What more do you want?

Liam Byrne

Yes

But as others have said, they won't.

Gross incompetence and negligence is a possible offence, as is reckless endangerment.

But this is Ireland where they can't even get O'Donoghue, Callely & O'Snodaigh for their abuse of public funds, let alone the Drumcondra Mafia head that was Teflon Taoiseach.

AeoNGriM

cournioni wrote: »

This.Is.IRELAND!!!!!!!!

Fixed

Seachmall wrote: »

Start prosecuting politicians for incompetence and we'll soon run out of incompetent politicians.

Also fixed!

wexie

mike65 wrote: »

Is it time that Bertie Ahern, Brian Cowen, John Hurley (governor of Cetral bank) and Patrick Neary (Financial Regulator) were charged with negligence?

Personally I think your list is a bit short and missing the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick, David Drum, Sean Quinn etc etc etc.

I absoletely believe these people have an awful lot to answer for. Do I think they're ever going to see the inside of a courtroom from the defendants point of view....I highly doubt it. Too much vested interests etc etc.

And if it did get to that stage it would end up being dragged out for years and years and mugs like yours truely would be stung for (tens of) millions of legal charges which would never be recouped.

A good public flogging and deportation would be much cheaper.
(Wouldnt want to incite any violence or (more) hatred.

Originally Posted by Seachmall
Start prosecuting politicians for incompetence and we'll soon run out of politicians.

You know what they say about politicians : 95% of them give the rest a bad name

godtabh

Anyone wrote: »

Is stupidity and incompetence a crime now?

In some circumstances I am sure it is. Despite the advice given they still went against it and ****ed the country.

That isnt stupidity or incompetence. That is negligence

smash

Personally I think them, and the financial regulator and the whole dept of finance should be put on trial!

My name is URL

Only if a guarantee is given that they will be found guilty! Otherwise it'd be a waste of money and would vindicate the pricks.

Son Of A Vidic

Why waste money on expensive trials. My question to them would be quite simple.
"Bertie, Brian, Patrick, Seanie, John, (insert relevant name) ect, would you like the rope or the bullet?"

And judging by the 'take it in the ass strategy', being implemented by the current shower of spineless, arsé licking idiots. I could probably add Enda, Michael and Eamonn to the above.

mike65

wexie wrote: »

Personally I think your list is a bit short and missing the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick, David Drum, Sean Quinn etc etc etc.

Cowen etc are/were public servants whereas Fitzy, Drumm etc are/were private businessman who were answerable to their shareholders not the state.

krudler

Anyone wrote: »

Is stupidity and incompetence a crime now?

Should be when youre in charge of an entire counties finances and future, we' sack a soccer manager for losing a few games in a row, country wrecking politicians are rewarded with pensions

stevenmu

Of course they should be put on trial, if someone can provide evidence of them committing a crime.

swimming in a sea

I don't think you could prosecute them, but we could set-up a new tribunal to investigate all that went on. There are lots of solicitors and barristers who would back me up on this.

Ellis Dee

As nice as it would be to see them both hanging in chains in dungeons, the sad reality is that it would be mighty hard to figure out what crime to charge them with - it would have to be according to the law as it now stands - and it would probably be virtually impossible to obtain a conviction.:(:(

I'm afraid we'll have to leave it to karma.:)

Doc Ruby

swimming in a sea wrote: »

I don't think you could prosecute them, but we could set-up a new tribunal to investigate all that went on.

Indeed, the tribunals were put in place by politicians so they wouldn't have to face a judge. They are a PR exercise, one hand washing the other.

While the guards couldn't be prompted to start an investigation, I'd say a group of concerned citizens would be well within their rights to sue the living daylights out of Ahern, Cowen and the rest of the spivs in an effort to get back their tax money on the grounds of negligence. It would probably be a complete circus but if enough people chipped in the cost per person would be minimal. Prison sentences would be unlikely to result but it would wipe the smirk off a few faces.

Cool Mo D

I'm no fan of either of them, but maybe someone could point out a crime that there's actual evidence of them committing?

Preferably one that's in the statute book somewhere. Not nonsense like 'economic treason' - hint: look up what the constitution actually defines as treason. And incompetence is not a crime.

I'd love if someone could figure out an actual crime, make a complaint to the gardaí, and get them on trial. It would be richly deserved.

golfball37

I'd settle for cutting off their pensions which they haven't earned. Let them challenge that decision legally and see how the people feel about it.

Does anyone in the main 3 parties have the balls to do such an act? Not likely.

alphabeat

NO

they should be shot , run over , etc on sight .

kincsem

I couldn't take a full trial listening to Bertie's mumbling.

ArmaniJeanss

Probably not a good idea for a democracy to go down this path.

Otherwise when/if Ahern and Cowens party gets back into power they then instigate proceedings against Kenny and FG (unemployment went up 5% on your watch, economic treason innit).

And then FG get back in and instigate proceedings against the previous government.

And eventually someone decides that rather than face a 10 year jail sentence that they might as well rig an election or ban the opposition or appoint themselves president for life.

ilovesleep

We'd be lucky if we get someone to stand up and tell the delusionial Bertie Ahern what hand he played in the making of Irelands mess.

Biggins

starbelgrade wrote: »

Ah come on Biggins - Micheal Martin apologised yesterday for his party's sins. What more do you want?

I know you jest.

But anyway...

“THERE IS NO other Troy/For me to burn”, sang a young, angry Sinéad O’Connor back in the day.
If she’d been watching the born-again fervour at the RDS last night, where Fianna Fáil were attempting to once again smear a little lipstick on the pig of their failed politics, she would have found one.

Robert Troy blew hard in the trumpet, and then he was there – the man who apparently only arrived in Ireland a year ago, and had nothing to do with its ruination – Micheál Martin.
No doubt Martin believes he spoke bravely as he forked his tongue around an apology that was – in contrast to RTÉ’s reporting – anything other than unequivocal.
In fact, the apology started with equivocation:

It’s not enough to point to the worst world recession in 80 years and the Eurozone crisis. Nor to point to the fact that other parties were demanding policies which would have made things worse.
It’s worth pointing out that Ireland’s troubles are not a result of the Eurozone crisis- we are in fact the cause of a great deal of it. And for that, the blame lies one thousand percent with Martin and the rest of his Fianna Fáil spivs, who were – lest we forget – in power at the time.

He continues to perpetuate one of Bertie’s many, many lies. Nothing has changed.
But for all his bluster, his attempt to regain the high ground of Republicanism from Sinn Féin was probably the most laughable – here was the party that sold this country down the river, throwing away our hard-won sovreignty, claiming to be Republicans?
If Tony McCoy’s undercarriage is ever damaged beyond repair, he can transplant Martin’s neck as fine replacement.
But if the laughter in a million living rooms wasn’t enough, the optics were the most damning.
‘This crisis is something that just happened to them’

Every time Martin spoke of pride and achievement and of a new kind of politics, the camera panned to the Soldiers of Destiny who were the architects of our national downfall – Cowen, Coughlan and the spineless goons that kept them in power, not to mention Martin himself.
Not only that – the party faithful actually applauded them. It would appear the party faithful are also at least partly mad.
As the recent interview with the despicable Mary Hanafin has proved, nothing in Fianna Fáil has changed – not their policies, not their leadership, not their sense that they did nothing wrong.
This crisis is something that just happened to them. They consider themselves to be desperately unlucky, rather than grossly inept and fantastically corrupt.

What they should have done was to go around to the other side of the RDS, where a careers fair was taking place.
There, they would have met the thousands desperate for a better future – any future – now forced to leave the country because of the catastrophic greed and failure of Fianna Fáil.
There, they could have prostrated themselves before those who are the true victims of this crisis- not themselves, as they would have you believe.

And there, they could have given the greatest apology of all, which would be to close down their corrupt, cancerous party and start anew.
That would have been an apology worth making.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-fianna-fail-renewed-no-the-optics-tell-a-different-story/

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Doc Ruby

Nobody's responsible for nathin

€650 million spent on unrealised projects

€30m

Children’s hospital
Some €30 million has been spent by the hospital board – mainly in fees to architects, engineers and other consultants or experts – in progressing its plans. The Government says a revised plan will be produced in the coming months.
€42m

Dart Underground
Plans and land acquisition for the Dart Underground have cost millions, but the project has been delayed indefinitely under the new capital spending plans.
€50m

Media Lab Europe
The high-technology “seed bed”, based in Dublin’s Liberties, was run jointly by the government and Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and was one of Mr Ahern’s most favoured projects. Founded in 2000, it went into liquidation a few years later, with consultants describing its output as “dismal”, “surprisingly weak” and “mediocre”.
€130m
PPARS
The HSE’s information technology project started small, at an estimated cost of €9 million in 1997, and ballooned to a cost of €130 million in 2004, before being put on hold by the Health Service Executive in 2007.
€55m

E-voting
Martin Cullen ordered more than 700 of the machines at a cost of €51 million, only to have them placed in storage in 2004 when security concerns emerged. Attempts to sell them have so far been unsuccessful.
€1.5m

Hospital co-location
Almost €1.5 million was paid in legal and financial costs associated with the now abandoned plans to develop co-located private hospitals. Project agreements for each of these hospitals expired in March 2011.
€44m

Decentralisation
Millions have been spent on acquiring sites for the Government’s decentralisation programme in locations where plans to transfer public service offices and State agencies have been either postponed or axed.
€18m Metro West
Millions has been spent on the design of this section of the Metro. It, too, has been shelved indefinitely as a result of cutbacks to capital spending plans.
€150m
Metro North
The decision not to proceed with the Metro North rail project as part of the 2012-2016 capital investment programme will cost the State more than €150 millionincluding compensation to the project bidders.
€100m

Bertie Bowl
Millions were spent on consultancy fees and the clearances of the Abbotstown development in preparation for a national stadium. Political opposition from Fianna Fáil’s coalition partners, the PDs, ultimately scuppered the project, although the FAI went on to relocate its headquarters at the site.
€42m
Thornton Hall
The Government spent €30 million acquiring land for the Thornton Hall “superprison”, which has been delayed indefinitely. A further €12 million has been spent on original plans for the prison and the Central Mental Hospital. Both designs have since been scrapped. Plans for a scaled-down version of the prison have also been long-fingered.
. . . and what €650 million could buy

185 SCHOOLS
+1 CHILDREN’S HOSPITAL
+1.5 AVIVA STADIUMS
+15 MILES OF LUAS TRACK

no1beemerfan

What sickened me was the amount of twenty/thirty somethings that were at the FF ard-feis on saturday. (Going by news reports).

Plenty of people should be put on trial but to be honest I doubt some ever will.

wexie

no1beemerfan wrote: »

What sickened me was the amount of twenty/thirty somethings that were at the FF ard-feis on saturday.

Are you sure they weren't part of the 20.000 reported to have attended the working abroad expo which was also on at the RDS?

ilovesleep

stevenmu wrote: »

Of course they should be put on trial, if someone can provide evidence of them committing a crime.

Negligence?

With negligence, there must be:
A duty of care
A breach of this duty
A suffering or loss due to this breach

Now we'll take Bertie Ahern as an example here.

He, has taoseach was responsible for running and caring for this country.

There was a breach of care when in 2000 he ignored a warning from the ESRI that we were heading for ruins with his policies.

Today we now see failed banks, due to running out of control and a huge deficit due to the banks and also the giveaway budgets. The banks fed a property boom, the government rode on the back of this with give away budgets. The whole thing collaspes and we're not tanking in enough money.

The suffering, loss and damage is on us the irish people with a failed economy in which we will see many drastic impacts due to this. Such as:

Financial stresses and strains with incomes reducing due to unemployment, reduced hours but outgoings rising due to extra taxes and bills.
Any many more other impacts which I couldn't be bothered right now going into.

ArmaniJeanss

ilovesleep wrote: »

Negligence?

With negligence, there must be:
A duty of care
A breach of this duty
A suffering or loss due to this breach

Now we'll take Bertie Ahern as an example here.

He, has taoseach was responsible for running and caring for this country.

There was a breach of care when in 2000 he ignored a warning from the ESRI that we were heading for ruins with his policies.

If it becomes a criminal offence to ignore the ESRI, then you quickly have a situation where the (unlected) ESRI are actually the government.
Which may not actually be a bad thing but I doubt it's what you intend.

Motorist

As much as I'd like to see MaFFia pay for ruining the country, this thread is just fanciful nonsense.

WhatNowForUs?

Anyone wrote: »

Is stupidity and incompetence a crime now?

In certain circumstances yes.

Biggins

Instead of strengthening the finance regulations (which was being called for by a number of bodies), he actually loosed them.
And of course its was his mates in the "Drumcondra Mafia" (not to mention "The Golden Circle") that benefited (and himself quietly?) from his very own actions?

SeaFields

no1beemerfan wrote: »

What sickened me was the amount of twenty/thirty somethings that were at the FF ard-feis on saturday. (Going by news reports).

yeah, mehole martin was attempting some optics for the press. While he was giving his speech there were lots of young people, in suits that were too big for them, in the background loudly applauding. He's another one that is bloody deluded.

cloptrop

If Tommy the chocolate factory worker ran out of space to store his chocolate one day and decided to stick it in another room up the hall that seemed empty , just stuck a couple of pallets in the corner and sure nobody will notice its Friday evening and he was gonna move it monday morning when the trucks took some stuff out of the way.
Put poor Tommy didnt realise that a yoga instructor rented that room on weekends to do bikram yoga classes.
Chaos ensues and Tommy comes in monday to a room of melted chocolate.
Should Tommy face trial or just be deported.

SEPT 23 1989

Trials take too long

Motorist

cloptrop wrote: »

If Tommy the chocolate factory worker ran out of space to store his chocolate one day and decided to stick it in another room up the hall that seemed empty , just stuck a couple of pallets in the corner and sure nobody will notice its Friday evening and he was gonna move it monday morning when the trucks took some stuff out of the way.
Put poor Tommy didnt realise that a yoga instructor rented that room on weekends to do bikram yoga classes.
Chaos ensues and Tommy comes in monday to a room of melted chocolate.
Should Tommy face trial or just be deported.

He could face trial for trespassing into the yoga studio and for criminal damage caused by the melted chocolate.

KeithAFC

If Bertie Ahern goes on trial, then a lot of people in Sinn Fein will also need to go on trial for committing war crimes.

Can't punish one person and forget the others.

cloptrop

Motorist wrote: »

He could face trial for trespassing into the yoga studio and for criminal damage caused by the melted chocolate.

What if it was his first day and he was on the jobsbridge sceme .

4zn76tysfajdxp

KeithAFC wrote: »

If Bertie Ahern goes on trial, then a lot of people in Sinn Fein will also need to go on trial for committing war crimes.

Can't punish one person and forget the others.

You keep fighting the good fight Keith. :pac:

the culture of deference

wexie wrote: »

And if it did get to that stage it would end up being dragged out for years and years and mugs like yours truely would be stung for (tens of) millions of legal charges which would never be recouped.

Good point. The current tribunals are ending soon. Those poor lawyers on €2,250 a day (or is it 2,500 per day;)), some who work monday to saturday, and some sundays, and never take holidays.

krudler wrote: »

Should be when youre in charge of an entire counties finances and future, we' sack a soccer manager for losing a few games in a row, country wrecking politicians are rewarded with pensions

Personally speaking Bertie is untouchable, he obviously has dirt on everyone, he is like hoover was in the 50's.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Indeed, the tribunals were put in place by politicians so they wouldn't have to face a judge. They are a PR exercise, one hand washing the other.

While the guards couldn't be prompted to start an investigation, I'd say a group of concerned citizens would be well within their rights to sue the living daylights out of Ahern, Cowen and the rest of the spivs in an effort to get back their tax money on the grounds of negligence. It would probably be a complete circus but if enough people chipped in the cost per person would be minimal. Prison sentences would be unlikely to result but it would wipe the smirk off a few faces.

I think the only way this would work is if Ahern was kidnapped and tortured US Guantanamo style to get his secrets, otherwise the lying crook would waffle his way out of it.

ilovesleep wrote: »

Negligence?

With negligence, there must be:
A duty of care
A breach of this duty
A suffering or loss due to this breach

Now we'll take Bertie Ahern as an example here.

He, has taoseach was responsible for running and caring for this country.

There was a breach of care when in 2000 he ignored a warning from the ESRI that we were heading for ruins with his policies.

Today we now see failed banks, due to running out of control and a huge deficit due to the banks and also the giveaway budgets. The banks fed a property boom, the government rode on the back of this with give away budgets. The whole thing collaspes and we're not tanking in enough money.

The suffering, loss and damage is on us the irish people with a failed economy in which we will see many drastic impacts due to this. Such as:

Financial stresses and strains with incomes reducing due to unemployment, reduced hours but outgoings rising due to extra taxes and bills.
Any many more other impacts which I couldn't be bothered right now going into.

I agree, I also believe that any politician who served in government up to 2008 should be disallowed from continuing in politics.

We need untainted people.

Fine gael/labour sat on their arse the whole way through this, FF are fcuked and should be disbanded.

4zn76tysfajdxp

cloptrop wrote: »

What if it was his first day and he was on the jobsbridge sceme .

What kind of a chocolate factory rents out rooms to yoga classes?

Dyr

The trial would cost the tax payer 60 million lids. bertie and brian would wind up with costs plus damages.

The system works.

Dyr

KeithAFC wrote: »

If Bertie Ahern goes on trial, then a lot of people in Sinn Fein will also need to go on trial for committing war crimes.

Can't punish one person and forget the others.

You'd have to admit there was a war first