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Polish welfare cheats "conspired against the Irish"

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭stephendevlin


    Ahh they'll be out in a month..

    How much is a night in the joy anyways :D


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Meanwhile TD sees no problem doing a legger with €52,000 worth of ink.
    Shur we'll say nothin about.

    While very true and you have a point, I would also point out this even bigger one: http://www.joe.ie/news-politics/current-affairs/is-the-eu-presidency-really-worth-e70m-to-ireland-0021162-1
    (and little has been said about it! Read the Times report and it mentioned that Ireland is spending absolute millions for 'gifts' to other countries. Other countries has done exactly the same office job for much, much less! Madness!)

    Be it social welfare crime, toner (mis)use or the above (and probably more, much more we don't know about), it ALL adds up to (a) a hell of an amount and (b) that is country is leaking money like water through a sieve daily!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭booboo88


    Dermighty wrote: »
    And it probably costs twenty times that much to imprison them :P

    Just line them up and shoot them, or better yet send them to a camp with other P.......................oh god I've done it again :(

    Or better yet, get them to cough up all the money and send em packing.....toodalooo mothafcka


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭Johnny Foreigner


    A man and a woman, both Polish and both living in Claremorris, have been sentenced to three months’ imprisonment each for fraudulent social welfare claims of €2,419 and €1,713 respectively last year.
    In two separate cases at last week’s sitting in Castlebar District Court, Judge Mary Devins heard how Karol Makuch (23) of 25 Grattan Avenue, Claremorris, and Barbara Gadec (29) of 13 Grattan Avenue, Claremorris, had separately misappropriated large sums of social welfare payments.
    Judge Mary Devins heard that Makuch and Gadec did this by using the welfare cards of Michael and Bernadetta Lebec, who had returned to Poland prior to the offences for family reasons.

    Suspicious
    Garda Donal Raftery of Claremorris Garda Station told the court that on August 8 last he called to Ballindine Post Office after he was contacted by social welfare inspector Tony Gavin. Mr Gavin had reported suspicious collections by a woman using a welfare card belonging to Bernadetta Lebec.
    Garda Raftery viewed CCTV footage of the woman whom he recognised as Barbara Gadec. While in the post office, Garda Raftery observed Gadec entering the post office and collecting a total of €171.30 on ten occasions under the name of Bernadetta Lebec. Gadec had misappropriated €1,713 in total.
    Gadec said that after fellow Polish natives Michael and Bernadetta Lebec returned to Poland for family reasons, she was approached and asked if she would collect the money on a weekly basis. While she did this, the couple returned on a monthly basis to sign on.
    Gadec, a mother of two, insisted all she received in exchange for her assistance from the Lebec’s was a few packets of duty-free cigarettes. She said there was a good relationship between the Polish in the area and she had just been helping them out.

    Criminal conspiracy
    Solicitor Michael Keane described Gadec as a family woman who had shown ‘naivety and stupidity’. “I would acknowledge that rather than believe that she was involved in a criminal conspiracy,” he said.
    A bemused Judge Devins replied, “Of course it’s a criminal conspiracy; it’s a criminal conspiracy against the people of the Republic of Ireland.”
    In a separate case which was again linked to Michael and Bernadetta Lebec, Karol Makuch of 25 Grattan Avenue, Convent Road, Claremorris, appeared on similar charges arising out of fraudulently claiming €2,419, this time with Michael Lebec’s card.
    Garda Raftery told the court he also viewed CCTV footage on August 8 last at Ballindine Post Office of Makuch claiming welfare payments. The defendant later admitted illegitimately claiming the money over a 15-week period.
    Garda Donal Raftery said that he did not recognise Makuch on CCTV footage. However, he arrested him after a period of surveillance outside the post office the following week.
    Solicitor Michael Keane said Makuch was 23-year-old kitchen porter and who had been in Ireland for three years and had never come to the attention of the Gardaí before.
    Defending his two clients, solicitor Michael Keane told Judge Devins that both Gadec and Makuch were part of a large ex-pat community who all helped each other out as best they could.
    Mr Keane said Gadec and Makuch had pleaded guilty at the very first opportunity and both individuals had subsequently repaid both sums of money. He added, “They got suckered into this by a couple who took advantage of their better nature. The couple are the real culprits. It’s almost like the drugs trade, except they’re the mules but now they’re in the firing line.”

    Respect
    Judge Devins intimated she had little sympathy for their situation. “You almost have me in tears here. You’re painting a picture akin to that of ‘Little House on the Prairie’ when you’re describing these Polish ex-pats.”
    Mr Keane continued, “Who knows better than the Irish about a self-help group. Of course it’s wrong but it’s very prevalent.” Judge Devins enquired, “Are you suggesting that the Irish community are doing this in other countries?” Mr Keane replied that the practice is ‘rampant’ in every country in the world. “Every government knows it’s rampant,” he said.
    Passing judgement Judge Devins acknowledged what she described as an impassioned plea from Mr Keane. She added, “I don’t think it’s entirely well-founded. For a start these emigrants are not living in tenements with no light, no electricity and no running water. These people have benefitted and have been shown respect by the Republic of Ireland. Ms Gadek and Mr Makuch have not returned or given back that respect.”
    Judge Devins sentenced Gadec and Makuch to six months in prison each, suspending the final three months for a period of twelve months. Recognisance in the event of an appeal was fixed at €2,400 for both parties, with independent surety fixed at €300.



    http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14745:welfare-cheats-conspired-against-the-irish-people&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

    Justice was done.
    I have just sent Judge Devins a a thank you card, and a bottle of 12 year old Jameson Special Reserve.
    What we need to see is more of this; punishing welfare tourism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,226 ✭✭✭Solair


    If the Department would get its finger out of whatever orifice they have it stuck in and implement some proper basic photo identification at point of payment then this would just stop over night!

    They are basically throwing tax payers' money (IMF, EU and ECB money etc) down the toilet through utter incompetence.

    Yet more money's being wasted having to prosecute fraudsters who cheat the system because the system is so open to cheating that it's almost a joke.

    If you are claiming social welfare, you should be issued with a payment card that has a photo embedded in the back. Or, better still, your photo should be taken by the social welfare office when you apply, and this should be stored on their network.

    When you swipe your payment card, your photo is displayed (in a large format) and the post office person simply compares it with the person who is making the claim.

    Job done!

    This isn't a massively difficult problem to solve and it's wasting court and Garda resources to leave it so wide open to abuse.

    I also don't understand why post offices are paying out cash, it's a huge security risk.

    Payment should be electronically transferred to the recipients account, but they should have to present themselves at the post office to have that transaction authorized. This would immediately cut out a whole load of cash-in-transit issues and also help to ensure that money was being paid to the named claimant.

    Pensions and disability could simply be paid automatically, (cutting out queues) as there's absolutely no need for these people to sign-on as they're legitimate on-going clients whose status is not going to change.

    Some fraudsters went to prison, great. (Costs us circa €100,000/year to keep them there!). Yet, the completely inadequate security system continues to run as normal.

    How many trials and pilots have to be run? Just issue damn photo ID cards!!

    You can't go into the bank and withdraw money without providing ID, so why should you be able to withdraw large amounts of welfare over the counter without proper ID ?. It's absolute madness.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭monkeypants


    What we need to see is more of this; punishing welfare tourism.
    Surely it was the other two who returned to sign on that were guilty of that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Corholio


    Person issues a true news story.

    People complain about other true stories.

    I feel for ya OP, you can't win.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭Dublin_Gunner


    Solair wrote: »
    If the Department would get its finger out of whatever orifice they have it stuck in and implement some proper basic photo identification at point of payment then this would just stop over night!

    Surely even simply having to produce a passport/drivers license/Garda ID matching the welfare card would suffice. This way the current cards could still be used, but MUST be used in conjunction with another form of ID.
    Surely it was the other two who returned to sign on that were guilty of that.

    You'd think so. But then again we never get the orchestrators, only the pawns. Same can be said for drug dealers and trafficers etc. We only ever catch the little guys.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 464 ✭✭Marcin_diy


    we took yerr jobs
    we took yerr benefits
    we took yerr cars
    we fraude yerr social welfare
    we took yerr hospital beds and trolleys
    we took yerr schools places
    we helped yerr road accidents numbers to grow


    but.....


    u toook ur women

    1:1


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,226 ✭✭✭Solair


    Surely even simply having to produce a passport/drivers license/Garda ID matching the welfare card would suffice. This way the current cards could still be used, but MUST be used in conjunction with another form of ID.

    They should just issue new cards, even with the same old swipe technology, that have a picture embedded in to them. Or, as a short term measure, issue simple photo ID cards to accompany the existing ones.

    Not absolutely everyone has official photo ID as there's no such requirement in Ireland, so you'd immediately walk into issues with requiring it.

    But, there's nothing to stop the Dept. issuing photo ID itself for this specific purpose.

    If you sign on in a Welfare Office, they could very easily issue you with a claim card that contained photo ID. It's only a matter of setting up something like what they have in every university campus in the country. You register, they take your photo with a digital camera, a few moments later a secure plastic card pops out of a printer with your photo embedded.

    It's neither difficult, or expensive technology to implement and countless off-the-shelf solutions exist.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Immigrants should not get welfare anyway. So that way they could not cheat the system. This is not surprising though. Thousands of immigrants entering the UK and the ROI and little to no surveillance on them in this regard.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,234 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    They should have been deported, its now going to cost in the region of €30k to keep them in prison for 3 months, wheres the point in that? They defrauded the state of roughly 4k so lets spend 7 times that punishing them! Why not pay for a one way ticket for them back to their country of origin and bar them from re-entering for 3 years.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    feckin greeks polish!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,226 ✭✭✭Solair


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Immigrants should not get welfare anyway. So that way they could not cheat the system. This is not surprising though. Thousands of immigrants entering the UK and the ROI and little to no surveillance on them in this regard.

    Well, if you've worked and paid tax in another country, there's no reason why you should be treated any differently. That's the whole philsophy behind the EU and it would also be highly hypocritical given the number of Irish in the UK in particular who avail of welfare services if we were to suddenly go on a crack down on legitimate immigrants who would be entitled to job seekers.

    However, I do think there should be no question of being able to register to claim social welfare unless you've been working here for a reasonable period e.g. 12 months and making PRSI contributions. The same should apply to anyone moving around the EU.

    I think the general issue of welfare fraud in Ireland extends FAR beyond immigrant communities. There is simply a crazily insecure system which is allowing payments to be made without adequate security and ID checks. Most of this probably comes down to typical civil service inflexibility. Usually rolling out any new technology in these kinds of scenarios results in massive pay claims and all sorts of obstruction.

    I would like to see the minister force something like this through and I would also like to see civil servants actually cooperate in using and rolling out the technology for once in their lives!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 464 ✭✭Marcin_diy


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Immigrants should not get welfare anyway. So that way they could not cheat the system. This is not surprising though. Thousands of immigrants entering the UK and the ROI and little to no surveillance on them in this regard.

    You should have no right to comment...
    I work here 8years at the moment and own house. If I loose job should I be deported straight away? why? your way of thinking is silly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭stephendevlin


    CJC999 wrote: »
    They should have been deported, its now going to cost in the region of €30k to keep them in prison for 3 months, wheres the point in that? They defrauded the state of roughly 4k so lets spend 7 times that punishing them! Why not pay for a one way ticket for them back to their country of origin and bar them from re-entering for 3 years.

    Isnt that what happens in America if you dont have a visa.. Arrested and on the plane same day. Bye Bye


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 606 ✭✭✭Jammy Donut


    CJC999 wrote: »
    They should have been deported, its now going to cost in the region of €30k to keep them in prison for 3 months, wheres the point in that? They defrauded the state of roughly 4k so lets spend 7 times that punishing them! Why not pay for a one way ticket for them back to their country of origin and bar them from re-entering for 3 years.

    Totally agree.... One way ticket, **** them out of the country and ban them for 10 years. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,226 ✭✭✭Solair


    Marcin_diy wrote: »
    You should have no right to comment...
    I work here 8years at the moment and own house. If I loose job should I be deported straight away? why? your way of thinking is silly.

    I don't think very many people would agree with the previous poster.
    We need to crack down on fraud! Not blame various groups of people totally unfairly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    So if an immigrant works here for a few years, they should then not be entitled to welfare? Is that what you are saying?
    Yes. I think a country should look after its own and if immigrants want to enter any country, they should respect the law and not be allowed to claim welfare. Just my opinion on it.

    The Irish people need to look after themselves now more than ever.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭johnryano


    No Irish person has ever committed welfare fraud in poland.

    fixed your post


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,350 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Corholio wrote: »
    Person issues a true news story.

    People complain about other true stories.

    I feel for ya OP, you can't win.

    You'd rather we just blame the foreigners for fiddling benefits, and ignore the fact that the rest of the claimants (who number substantially more) aren't all as pure as the driven snow?

    Thankfully, Boards isn't as one-sided as some message boards.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭token101


    This is the tip of the iceberg I suspect.
    Little wonder our sick children are lying on trolleys.
    Good to see the courts are getting tough on these parasites.

    I have sick children? News to me, I thought it was a Jack Russell.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33 Sonic the Large Cock


    The opening post was to long and i cudnt be bothered readin it. Was the polish women hot?? miscarriage of justice in that case


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    No Irish person has ever committed welfare fraud.

    Irish scam artists tend to be our problem, this is Ireland. Polish scam artists are now our problem as well, they shouldnt be, but hey..welcome to the neu europa


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,730 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Foreigners = fraudsters

    Natives = cute

    Truer words never spoken.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭token101


    The opening post was to long and i cudnt be bothered readin it. Was the polish women hot?? miscarriage of justice in that case

    Hot women don't go to jail. Pornos aren't real.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Marcin_diy wrote: »
    You should have no right to comment...
    I work here 8years at the moment and own house. If I loose job should I be deported straight away? why? your way of thinking is silly.
    Fair play to you. I admire people like you. It isn't you my post was aimed at. It was immigrants cheating the system and welfare to immigrants in general.

    If you lost your job, I don't think you should be deported. I think the government should be looking at ways to create jobs and benefit the immigrants in terms of work.

    But that should be the case for everyone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,274 ✭✭✭_feedback_


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Yes. I think a country should look after its own and if immigrants want to enter any country, they should respect the law and not be allowed to claim welfare. Just my opinion on it.

    The Irish people need to look after themselves now more than ever.

    I actually had deleted the post that you quoted because I didn't want to get in to this again .. but you were quick!

    How can you try to say that not paying somebody welfare that they are entitled to is an option... just because of where they come from :confused:

    It's completely ridiculous..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,226 ✭✭✭Solair


    There's plenty of evidence, and also rumors which are quite likely true, of Irish people committing similar fraud and utterly riding the Welfare system.

    The vast majority of welfare recipients are genuine people who are using the system absolutely legitimately.

    If the system were properly managed and secure, there simply wouldn't be the levels of fraud that seem to be prevalent at the moment.

    This jumping on the 'blame the immigrants' agenda is absolutely divisive and damn nasty as there are a very large number of immigrants who made their home here and through no fault of their own, their jobs went as the construction sector collapsed thanks to a property bubble created by Irish banks and developers and facilitated by the political system.

    So, if you want to point the finger, there are plenty of elected and formerly elected representatives, boards of financial services companies and others who most definitely were to blame.

    In the meantime, those of us who can actually see what's going on and aren't just raving bigots might actually do something to get the country back on track and fix the economy!

    There are HUGE benefits to having had that level of immigration over the last few years and I think people are not recognising them. We have now got almost unique levels of access into various Eastern European countries at a business level because of personal contacts that have been made through immigration.

    I know from personal experience, that I have found it much easier to do business with places that a couple of decades ago we knew nothing about. E.g. Poland, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Romania, Russia, Turkey, China, parts of Africa etc. Why? Because we know people from there and because there are people from there who have made their homes here.

    Also, services companies in the IT and other sectors are attracted here because there's a huge pool of multilingual, talented people. The likes of Apple can support the whole of Europe out of Cork, because there's a whole range of people in Cork who speak everything from Polish, to French, to Norwegian, to Turkish... to dialects of Serbo-Croat. All of those people pay tax, and those taxes pay for everything from schools to healthcare.

    Ireland's boom attracted loads of people in and we need to now make use of all those connections, not turn inwards and xenophobic.

    Ireland trades on its ability to be an open, connected, communicative place that has friends and goodwill around the world. If we lose that, and become an bunch of inward looking racists, we might as well just pack our collective bags and turn the place into a bird sanctuary / bigot theme park.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,119 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    While in the post office, Garda Raftery observed Gadec entering the post office and collecting a total of €171.30 on ten occasions under the name of Bernadetta Lebec. Gadec had misappropriated €1,713 in total.
    Does that mean the Garda sat in the post office waiting for yer one to show up on ten different days?


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