Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Options
1…107108110112113…334

Comments

  • Options
    #3272
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    dvpower wrote: »
    There is a 1.5bn figure across a range of tax increases and a further 1.1bn increase next year.

    Are you now in favour of
    a) the government introducing a tax that costs more to collect than it brings in?

    That's what this tax will be, if enough people hold their nerve.
    dvpower wrote: »
    b) the government signing up to a commitment with no intention of honestly implementing it (i.e. lying)?

    It's good enough when campaigning for election.


  • Options
    #3273
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Slick50 wrote: »
    It's good enough when campaigning for election.

    So you are in favour of the government lying when it suits them? :eek:


  • Options
    #3274
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    dvpower wrote: »
    Now, do you think the Government could ignore the property tax without consequence?

    Yes! Once the troika extract their pound of flesh, they really don't give a damn. They are not going to pull the plug that readilly, once they get their money. Why do you think they are bending over backwards to facilitate the Greeks.

    dvpower wrote: »
    Well - where there was one, there was bound to be another.

    If you open your eyes you'll see there's a lot more than two of us.
    dvpower wrote: »
    So you are in favour of the government lying when it suits them?

    Most certainly not, but if it's good enough for your electorate? This is not the first time politicians lying has been discussed on this thread.


  • Options
    #3275
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Nonsense and drivel as usual seriously what has any of this got to do with the household charge?
    Good morning donal,

    The only reason you support this anti campaign is because you don't want to pay it
    An anti campaign would hardly support the item they are campaigning against.

    and you don't want to be the only one that hasn't paid it
    Well i haven`t paid it. And am not the only one. Will i pay it? Who knows. But i wont be regestering anytime soon.

    You call me a sheep I call you cheap.


    Thats fair enough, but . . . sheep - search tool =/= robbie7730


  • Options
    #3276
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Good morning donal,


    An anti campaign would hardly support the item they are campaigning against.



    Well i haven`t paid it. And am not the only one. Will i pay it? Who knows. But i wont be regestering anytime soon.





    Thats fair enough, but . . . sheep - search tool =/= robbie7730

    More insults from him Rob. Nothing new there, what?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #3277
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    More insults from him Rob. Nothing new there, what?

    I know but realistically we should just post and be friendly. As you rightly said yourself, a bit of banter.


  • Options
    #3278
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Slick50 wrote: »
    Yes! Once the troika extract their pound of flesh, they really don't give a damn. They are not going to pull the plug that readilly, once they get their money.
    That's a very naive view imo. One of the major reasons that governments introduce property taxes is because they provide some certainty to the amount that will be raised. This isn't available from most other taxes that are more influenced by economic conditions.

    I think its fair to assume that the government of the day would have kept the section that outlines the actual taxes to be implemented/increased blank if the troika didn't give a damn. Who do you think specified a property tax and why?
    Slick50 wrote: »
    Why do you think they are bending over backwards to facilitate the Greeks.
    Have you seen the property tax that the Greeks were made to implement? It is many times more harsh than ours.


  • Options
    #3279
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    I know but realistically we should just post and be friendly. As you rightly said yourself, a bit of banter.

    I call a truce, ok lads?


  • Options
    #3280
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    I know but realistically we should just post and be friendly. As you rightly said yourself, a bit of banter.

    Backtracking more like. I am the one that tries to have a normal discussion about the household charge and then you and Gerry appear and try bring it down to some level far below normal adult discussion.

    I am all for posting and discussing the issue in a proper civilised way provided that is what I get back.

    None of this avoiding the questions asked, or constant deflection, and especially no editing of my posts by others to suit themselves.

    So if you wish to discuss the household charge then lets do that shall we and leave all the other crap out of it.


  • Options
    #3281
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Backtracking more like.
    I dont see the back tracking bit myself. I thought you might be a bit more into it if we were all less attacking.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #3282
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    dvpower wrote: »
    One of the major reasons that governments introduce property taxes is because they provide some certainty to the amount that will be raised. This isn't available from most other taxes that are more influenced by economic conditions.

    Ability to pay is also influenced by economic conditions, so you exempt people who can't pay, and continue to extract it from people who can untill they are so impoverished that you have to exempt them too. That doesn't sound to certain to me. Of course once you reach this point you have a lien on their property.
    dvpower wrote: »
    I think its fair to assume that the government of the day would have kept the section that outlines the actual taxes to be implemented/increased blank if the troika didn't give a damn. Who do you think specified a property tax and why?

    Well, it was first muted in Brussels back in two thousand by the european parliament, when they were warning Bertie that our economic model was un-sustainable, due to reliance on stamp duty. (And when the sh*t hits the fan, don't come running to us) More recently by the troika, for the reasons you stated above.
    dvpower wrote: »
    Have you seen the property tax that the Greeks were made to implement? It is many times more harsh than ours.

    No I haven't. Have you? what is it? That's probably why their people are out on the streets burning anything that will burn.

    Now, why do you think the troika are bending over backwards for the Greeks


  • Options
    #3283
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    So some agree with the charge and some don't, that's fairly obvious. We'll agree to disagree as they say!

    Let's try to put forward some alternatives,shall we.

    I lead with a possible increase in corporation tax, 1-2%, we'd still be well below our competitors.

    A freeze on increments in the PS/CS, at least until the country is out of this mess.

    Water charges, as long as everyone is charged when necessary e.g. over a certain limit. NO exceptions.

    I have some other ideas but I'll start with those 3.


  • Options
    #3284
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Whats the story with the statement, if you don't recognise it you don't have to pay but your ignoring it is accepting it, i know its worded different but does that not mean they have you caught either way?

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Options
    #3285
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Slick50 wrote: »
    Ability to pay is also influenced by economic conditions [...]
    It is, but not to the same extent. If I take a pay cut tomorrow, the government automatically get less income tax (and VAT and excise duty ...) out of me, but my property tax remains the same.
    Things have to reach an extreme for me before I cant afford to pay it - that's why it is a more stable tax (from a tax collection pov).
    Slick50 wrote: »
    Well, it was first muted in Brussels back in two thousand by the european parliament, when they were warning Bertie that our economic model was un-sustainable, due to reliance on stamp duty. (And when the sh*t hits the fan, don't come running to us) More recently by the troika, for the reasons you stated above.
    Exactly right. Transaction taxes based on property transactions are unsustainable. An ongoing property tax is much more sustainable (from a tax collection pov)
    Slick50 wrote: »
    No I haven't. Have you? what is it? That's probably why their people are out on the streets burning anything that will burn.
    Its €1000 to €1500 p/a payable via electricity bills, with electricity to be cut off for people who don't pay. There is a link to more details further back on this thread.
    Slick50 wrote: »
    Now, why do you think the troika are bending over backwards for the Greeks
    They aren't bending over backwards. They are inflicting immense pain on the Greeks. By comparison, we are getting an easy ride.


  • Options
    #3286
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    I lead with a possible increase in corporation tax, 1-2%, we'd still be well below our competitors.
    We fought tooth and nail to keep Corp. tax off the table, so I don;t see a realistic prospect of us raising it. There is a fair consensus that any tinkering of Corp. tax would impact FDI. We would be seen as giving up something that we had set in stone and confidence that we wouldn't keep going back to the same well would be eroded.
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    A freeze on increments in the PS/CS, at least until the country is out of this mess.
    A good idea. I suspect we'll have to do this in the next year or two anyway.
    This comes into the 'cut expenditure' column, not the 'raise taxes' column, and the ratio between the two has been agreed by government. If they were to freeze increments, the likely outcome would be less cuts in other areas, not less tax rises.
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Water charges, as long as everyone is charged when necessary e.g. over a certain limit. NO exceptions.
    Water charges are in the pipeline:pac:
    Unfortunately , we're going to have water charges and property tax.


  • Options
    #3287
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dvpower wrote: »
    We fought tooth and nail to keep Corp. tax off the table, so I don;t see a realistic prospect of us raising it. There is a fair consensus that any tinkering of Corp. tax would impact FDI. We would be seen as giving up something that we had set in stone and confidence that we wouldn't keep going back to the same well would be eroded.


    A good idea. I suspect we'll have to do this in the next year or two anyway.
    This comes into the 'cut expenditure' column, not the 'raise taxes' column, and the ratio between the two has been agreed by government. If they were to freeze increments, the likely outcome would be less cuts in other areas, not less tax rises.


    Water charges are in the pipeline:pac:
    Unfortunately , we're going to have water charges and property tax.

    I think I read a survey of companies coming into Ireland where they said that while the corporation tax rate was a factor, it wasn't the be all and end all.
    An educated workforce, english speaking, location, ease of investing here etc were all more important than the corporate tax rate.

    We would still have a very competitive rate if we increased it a bit and then when the French start saber rattling about our rate we would be able to point out how we had raised it already.
    We should box clever in this debate or the germans & french will dictate the rate to us.


  • Options
    #3288
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Water charges should be brought in as soon as possible really, but usage needs to be measured at the tap and not metered at the road outside the house as leaks from the road to the house would be included then.

    Also the Social Welfare system needs a complete overhaul, a cut in the basic rates for a start, although with exemptions to some rates like the OAP rate and the Blind Pension, but JB's and OPFP should be cut.

    All of this should be done beside the property tax, and those in rented accommodation should be liable for the charge and not be exempt, social housing tenants should also be liable for it, basically everyone and no exemptions, no excuses.

    A raise of 1% in all income tax should be implemented also, that way if you are working you take a hit, they talk of fairness and equality well it would be great to see it at work for a change and stop forcing the bulk of charges and pay cuts on the middle income earners.


  • Options
    #3289
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Water charges should be brought in as soon as possible really, but usage needs to be measured at the tap and not metered at the road outside the house as leaks from the road to the house would be included then.

    Also the Social Welfare system needs a complete overhaul, a cut in the basic rates for a start, although with exemptions to some rates like the OAP rate and the Blind Pension, but JB's and OPFP should be cut.

    All of this should be done beside the property tax, and those in rented accommodation should be liable for the charge and not be exempt, social housing tenants should also be liable for it, basically everyone and no exemptions, no excuses.

    I still think the OAP should be looked at. There's a lot of pensioners out there with plenty of money. Means testing perhaps?
    The same with children's allowance, should Michael O'leary be entitled to that the same as someone with limited means?


  • Options
    #3290
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    I still think the OAP should be looked at. There's a lot of pensioners out there with plenty of money. Means testing perhaps?
    The same with children's allowance, should Michael O'leary be entitled to that the same as someone with limited means?

    True a means test on the OAP could be included although the cost of implementing and carrying that out could outweigh any savings made when the reductions are implemented.

    Agree with the Childrens allowance its crazy that some people get it as a formality when there is no consideration given to their actual wealth, like Michael O'Leary who has said himself that he shouldnt be getting it.


  • Options
    #3291
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    dvpower wrote: »
    It is, but not to the same extent. If I take a pay cut tomorrow, the government automatically get less income tax (and VAT and excise duty ...) out of me, but my property tax remains the same.
    Things have to reach an extreme for me before I cant afford to pay it - that's why it is a more stable tax (from a tax collection pov).

    If you take a pay cut it directly affects your ability to pay, but the government will be looking to take exactly the same ammount off you. And that's equitable? That's OK with you?

    A property tax circumvents economic activity, therefore takes cash directly out of the economy, stifling activity. If they take the ammount of money they are talking about directly out of the economy, it will cost jobs. Possibly even your's.
    dvpower wrote: »
    Exactly right. Transaction taxes based on property transactions are unsustainable. An ongoing property tax is much more sustainable (from a tax collection pov)

    See above!
    dvpower wrote: »
    Its €1000 to €1500 p/a payable via electricity bills, with electricity to be cut off for people who don't pay. There is a link to more details further back on this thread.

    That's pretty much what we'll be looking at next year, or the year after. The method of collection will differ, that's all.

    dvpower wrote: »
    They aren't bending over backwards. They are inflicting immense pain on the Greeks. By comparison, we are getting an easy ride.

    They certainly are, and it's because they know there are far reaching consequences if they turn their back on them, or us.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #3292
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    donalg1 wrote: »
    True a means test on the OAP could be included although the cost of implementing and carrying that out could outweigh any savings made when the reductions are implemented.

    Agree with the Childrens allowance its crazy that some people get it as a formality when there is no consideration given to their actual wealth, like Michael O'Leary who has said himself that he shouldnt be getting it.

    Another thing would be road tax rates, and I'll probably get it in the neck for this but they're all wrong.
    I've a 2 liter BMW diesel and the road tax is now €220, up from €160 or whatever.
    Even I know that this is well cheap and although I'm not complaining, I would pay more (not too much mind).
    That was another concession to the greens so FF could stay in power.

    I don't mind paying these type of taxes, the problem I have with the household tax is that it discriminates against people who own property.

    To me Donal it's a matter of principle.

    There's more than one way to skin a cat as the saying goes.


  • Options
    #3293
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    I don't mind paying these type of taxes, the problem I have with the household tax is that it discriminates against people who own property.

    To me Donal it's a matter of principle.

    I dont even mind the "owning property" bit. Its the family home i have a problem with. As said a few posts back it will be a steady income for them, regardless of economic situation, and therefore, regardless of peoples ability to pay in bad economic times, on a libility which is your home.


  • Options
    #3294
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    I dont even mind the "owning property" bit. Its the family home i have a problem with. As said a few posts back it will be a steady income for them, regardless of economic situation, and therefore, regardless of peoples ability to pay in bad economic times, on a libility which is your home.

    Say it's €1000 per year.
    That's €1000 per year people don't have to spend in the domestic economy.
    Multiply that by 1.8 million and that's some chunk of money not being spent here, not creating jobs, no VAT return off it etc etc.
    I'm not sure the figures add up.


  • Options
    #3295
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Say it's €1000 per year.
    That's €1000 per year people don't have to spend in the domestic economy.
    Multiply that by 1.8 million and that's some chunk of money not being spent here, not creating jobs, no VAT return off it etc etc.
    I'm not sure the figures add up.

    Imagine €1000 a year onto esb bills. Almost €200 per bill before electricity use. Some benefit to the economy that.


  • Options
    #3296
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Its probably not the best way to raise funds but it is the way they have chosen to do it, so my point is while I may not completely agree with the household charge and I certainly dont agree with the exemptions I have no choice but to pay it.

    I see it as they have said give me €100 and I wont register a charge against your property, so I then have to choose if I want to pay the €100 not to have a charge registered against my property or do I decide that I would rather keep the €100 and have a charge on my property.

    I just dont like the idea of having that charge on my property so I am going to pay the Household Charge.


  • Options
    #3297
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    I think I read a survey of companies coming into Ireland where they said that while the corporation tax rate was a factor, it wasn't the be all and end all.

    It's the single most important factor according to this
    Key Findings of The MOP FDI Index:

    The most positive attributes identified as important by US corporations considering Ireland as a location for FDI: competitive tax regime (29%), English speaking (21%), ease of access from North America (18%), Government incentives (17%), skilled workforce (17%);
    The negative attributes identified by US corporations considering Ireland as a location for FDI: national financial instability (20%), inefficient Government (17%), instability in Eurozone (15%), remote location and restricted access (9%);
    When compared with other European, Asian, Middle Eastern and African countries, Ireland scored the best when it came to corporate tax rates, corporate tax regime, interest rates, government incentives, physical infrastructure and IT environment and access to a pool of local skilled labour at appropriate levels.

    gerryo777 wrote: »
    We should box clever in this debate or the germans & french will dictate the rate to us.
    They already tried to dictate the rate to us and we won that battle. I can't think why we would want to start it up again.


  • Options
    #3298
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Slick50 wrote: »
    If you take a pay cut it directly affects your ability to pay, but the government will be looking to take exactly the same ammount off you. And that's equitable? That's OK with you?
    I'd prefer if I had to pay no tax at all, but that's not the choice.
    Slick50 wrote: »
    A property tax circumvents economic activity, therefore takes cash directly out of the economy, stifling activity. If they take the ammount of money they are talking about directly out of the economy, it will cost jobs. Possibly even your's.
    I'm not arguing that a property tax is a good thing. I'd prefer if all taxes were lower, but a property tax has the advantage over other taxes that it provides a more stable and forecast-able revenue stream for the state.
    It certainly has other disadvantages compared to other taxes (especially in its current form) because it isn't progressive. I think a modest property tax should be part of the mix.


  • Options
    #3299
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    dvpower wrote: »

    They already tried to dictate the rate to us and we won that battle. I can't think why we would want to start it up again.

    Battle? When FF/FG do their fuhken jobs correctly they're some kind of bloody hero, is that it?


  • Options
    #3300
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    What services will we get for the Household Tax ?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #3301
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    squod wrote: »
    Battle? When FF/FG do their fuhken jobs correctly they're some kind of bloody hero, is that it?
    Well at least you give them credit for doing their jobs correctly. That's progress.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement