Shock, horror as passengers desert the railways!

Judgement Day · 22-02-2012 11:00AM #1

From today's Indo comes the 'shock' findings from yet another firm of highly paid consultants - AECOM/Goodbody Economic Consultants - that passengers are leaving the railways in favour of their cars. Did we really need this report to tell us what the dogs in the street already knew?

Barry Kenny, as usual, trots out all the old rhetoric about how the railways were 'saved' by the previous investment and now they need more dosh to bring down journeys times to compete with the motorways. If I had a Euro for every time this argument and promise of reduced journey times was trotted out! The plain fact is that CIE/IE are past their sell by date - comment please.

Passengers ditching train for cars on long journeys

By Paul Melia
Wednesday February 22 2012

PASSENGERS are avoiding using the train to travel between cities because of poor levels of service and longer journey times than by road.

A major report on Iarnrod Eireann's intercity service says that some services are performing "extremely poorly" and that slower journey times have to be addressed to get people out of the car and on trains.

The study by AECOM/Goodbody Economic Consultants warns that without service improvements, passenger numbers will not recover before 2015.

It found that in some cases the number of people travelling for free on concessions, like OAP travel passes, meant that the revenue generated was very low.

The study seen by the Irish Independent found that future investment should be on the major routes from Dublin to Cork, Belfast, Limerick, Galway and Waterford.

For a spend of €250m over five years, journey times could be reduced on most routes by 30 minutes, which would make the train competitive with the car.

"It is anticipated that without further service improvements, passenger numbers will not recover from their 2007 peak until after 2015," it warns.

Passenger numbers peaked in 2007 when 10.7 million journeys were made on the inter-city network. This fell to eight million last year.

The major reason for the decline is because the roll-out of the motorway network means it is generally quicker to drive between cities than take the train.

Iarnrod Eireann has spent more than 10 years bringing the network up to a basic standard. Since 1998, more than €1.6bn has been spent upgrading the railway network which includes replacing 500 miles of track, upgrading or closing 900 level crossings and replacing or upgrading 240 bridges.

The fleet is now among the youngest in Europe, and there is spare capacity for more services in Kildare and in Dublin.

By comparison, more than €12bn has been spent upgrading national roads and building motorways between 2006 and 2011.

"The initial investment programme was about saving the network," Iarnrod Eireann spokesman Barry Kenny said.

"Funding then went into things that the customer could see such as new trains and replacement of track.

"Where historically there was an advantage over road, the motorway programme has changed all that. New carriages can do speeds that the network currently doesn't allow. You don't need new trains, you need to invest €50m a year over five years in track and that will knock 30 minutes off journey times."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/passengers-ditching-train-for-cars-on-long-journeys-3026976.html

munchkin_utd · 22-02-2012 11:18AM

the report itsself is featured on the irish rail website:
http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_news.jsp?i=4482&p=116&n=237

The documents themselves are here:

Executive Summary

Rail Strategy Review Part 1

Rail Strategy Review Part 2

I'll not comment till I've read them!

Park Royal · 22-02-2012 11:30AM

Must be difficult to make money in the middle of the worst recession in

years.... even if you wanted to travel you would not have the money .

But I suspect this is just a ploy to electrify some portion of the rail net work.

as it is mentioned.......

Somebody may want to rethink , the dismantling of the Sales team in 2006..

dont hear of too many rail workers going out looking for business.....

The bright sparks on the CIE board may have got things wrong.....in this

regard......( " the service will sell itself") .......?

JeffK88 · 22-02-2012 11:48AM

Maybe if they didn't keep increasing prices they might gain back some of the lost passengers. 19.90e return from newbridge while bus eireann at around 14e and dublin coach + luas to city centre in around 14.20e. Thats just one example.

LXFlyer · 22-02-2012 11:49AM

Yess - but after 0930 Newbridge-Dublin is EUR 13 return.

Cat Melodeon · 22-02-2012 11:57AM

I used to travel Thurles-Limerick three times a week and would have loved to travel by train, but the bus connections were so poor on the Limerick side that I couldn't get to work on time. And I was travelling out to UL, it's not like I was going to some obscure part of the city. Taking a taxi rather than a bus pushed the cost way outside my budget. It was cheaper and quicker to drive. If there are no joined up services, you might as well be taking a train to nowhere.

Vahevala · 22-02-2012 11:59AM

lxflyer wrote: »

Yess - but after 0930 Newbridge-Dublin is EUR 13 return.

Hardly helps you if you need to get to work...

mydiscworld · 22-02-2012 12:01PM

Judgement Day wrote: »

"The initial investment programme was about saving the network," Iarnrod Eireann spokesman Barry Kenny said.

"Funding then went into things that the customer could see such as new trains and replacement of track.

"Where historically there was an advantage over road, the motorway programme has changed all that. New carriages can do speeds that the network currently doesn't allow. You don't need new trains, you need to invest €50m a year over five years in track and that will knock 30 minutes off journey times."

So invest the 50m today. What's the problem? You just put up fares. Surely it's to upgrade your service?

LXFlyer · 22-02-2012 12:01PM

Vahevala wrote: »

Hardly helps you if you need to get to work...

Well there are commuter and taxsaver ticket options available for that. No one doing a daily commute ought to be buying return tickets.

The weekly ticket is EUR 54 (works out at EUR 10.80 per day assuming 5 return trips).

The monthly and annual tickets are EUR 195 and EUR 1,950 respectively.

Assuming no tax saver discount, the monthly one works out at EUR 9.75 per day (assuming 20 days), and the annual one works out at EUR 8.29 per day (assuming 47 working weeks).

Applying taxsaver discount, that works out at EUR 6.65 per day on the lower tax rate or EUR 4.70 on the higher rate for the monthly option or EUR 5.74 and EUR 4 respectively for the annual version.

They are hardly unreasonable fares.

Losty Dublin · 22-02-2012 12:04PM

Having breezed through part 2, which is the meat and veg in terms on railway operation, it's just copperfastened my opinion of these reports as just telling you the bleeding obvious in 200 glossy pages.

We all know that trains are not fast enough overall, we know that investment in decent trackwork is needed to bring speeds up and we all know the two critical factors as to why passenger numbers have gone down is due to improved roads on the primary corridors that rail also served and that less people are making journeys. The mere fact that the civil servants Kildare Street needs to spend 6 figures to kop onto this conclusing just shows us that they actually are the ones who well and truly have no idea what's going on or what should be done, not the mid management in CIE companies.

foggy_lad · 22-02-2012 12:05PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Yess - but after 0930 Newbridge-Dublin is EUR 13 return.

I have been on the Newbridge\Kildare commuter after 9.30 and it is a ghost train! Nobody/very few paying passengers use it after the commuters have passed through before 9am.

It found that in some cases the number of people travelling for free on concessions, like OAP travel passes, meant that the revenue generated was very low.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/passengers-ditching-train-for-cars-on-long-journeys-3026976.html

The revenue generated will always be low! If OAPs and the disabled have to pay full/half price they will get the bus or will consolidate their journeys so they travel far less frequently meaning less OAP journeys so less subvention! The disabled and elderly do not have any real income to be spending on expensive rail journeys.

dmcronin · 22-02-2012 12:06PM

Wonder will this be mentioned in the weekly George Hook/Barry Kenny love-in on Newstalk?

I think not, lads would ye ever get a room.

munchkin_utd · 22-02-2012 12:09PM

one measure in the short term that is mentioned is :

Short-term improvements to services to Dublin Airport,
through development of a Dublin Parkway station for InterCity customers from the south and west with connecting Airport bus services to the national network. (This is in addition to the separate development of a direct DART spur to the Airport from Clongriffin, which will initially serve passengers from the east coast, the City centre and Northern Ireland.

Whats all that about?
I never saw any suggestion like this before.

If thats a proposal of bus services from say Cherry Orchard on the Cork/limerick/galway/mayo Mainline (with bus only slip road onto M50 only metres away??) to the airport then
A) its a stroke of genius

it sounds too good to be true and surely a competitior will complain that it is "Irish rail using their dominant position" leading to the plans being scuppered for one reason or the other

To be able to get from the airport to Cork or Mayo by train without having to encounter the city centre is be a great idea and if it was in place I'd have used this numerous times already on these 2 particular routes.

schemingbohemia · 22-02-2012 12:16PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Having breezed through part 2, which is the meat and veg in terms on railway operation, it's just copperfastened my opinion of these reports as just telling you the bleeding obvious in 200 glossy pages.

We all know that trains are not fast enough overall, we know that investment in decent trackwork is needed to bring speeds up and we all know the two critical factors as to why passenger numbers have gone down is due to improved roads on the primary corridors that rail also served and that less people are making journeys. The mere fact that the civil servants Kildare Street needs to spend 6 figures to kop onto this conclusing just shows us that they actually are the ones who well and truly have no idea what's going on or what should be done, not the mid management in CIE companies.

"The report, commissioned by Iarnród Éireann"

Where did you get it was paid for by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport?

LXFlyer · 22-02-2012 12:22PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

I have been on the Newbridge\Kildare commuter after 9.30 and it is a ghost train! Nobody/very few paying passengers use it after the commuters have passed through before 9am.

That's why there are cheaper promotional fares to incentivise travel.

Commuters have a range of cheaper alternatives as listed above.

foggy_lad · 22-02-2012 12:23PM

schemingbohemia wrote: »

"The report, commissioned by Iarnród Éireann"

Where did you get it was paid for by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport?

Commissioned by Irish Rail, So where did Irish Rail get the money for the report only from the departments of transport and finance and the taxpayer.

But why would middle management in Irish Rail commission such a report when the dogs on the street would have told them the same for nothing?

foggy_lad · 22-02-2012 12:24PM

lxflyer wrote: »

That's why there are cheaper promotional fares to incentivise travel.

Commuters have a range of cheaper alternatives as listed above.

They are not working!

Dublin Coach Monasterevin to Naas €4 return on the hour 24/7

Irish Rail same journey 5 services monday-friday from Monasterevin(2 require change of train) but none between 7.45am and 8.12pm (discounts only apply to journeys to/from Dublin) Open return €14.70

fenris · 22-02-2012 12:24PM

Maybe if a the service provided was actually useful to people trying to get to work on time there would be a higher usage by people who want to get to work on time, there are still a few out there!

The current service seems to be for the benefit of the staff rather than the customers and orientated around the staff start finish times rather than the customers desired travel times. At this stage I only use the rail network if there is no other option and if there is a time available for the inevitable delays.

The cost in both financial terms and time associated with the poor scheduling makes it difficult to justify any use of the service at all. Most people measure their journey time in terms of door to destination and cannot conveniently ignore the portion of time spent waiting around for the scheduled service to finish its cup of tea/catch the end of the match.

We don't use the train for the fun of using the train we use it to get somewhere.

Judgement Day · 22-02-2012 12:26PM

There's even a Blog where you can leave comments - enjoy!

http://www.irishrail.ie/blog_post.jsp?blogID=1&a=275

Private Piles · 22-02-2012 12:34PM

Until very recently I used to commute by train between Ballinasloe and Galway.
Nearly every day there would be a 10 min delay at Woodlawn waiting for another train to pass and again at Atherny for about 5-10mins for exactly the same reason.

(It always reminded me of driving down a tiny country lane and pulling in so the other car can pass)

There was nearly 10-15mins of non-movement everyday, and that's not even taking into account any other delays along the way from Dublin.

On the motorway it takes approx. 20-30mins to get from Ballinasloe to Galway, it's not a difficult decision between the two!

Losty Dublin · 22-02-2012 12:41PM

schemingbohemia wrote: »

"The report, commissioned by Iarnród Éireann"

Where did you get it was paid for by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport?

Semi State companies have two choices here. They can have a report like this compiled internally where it remains unannounced or they can do out and have the same report written externally where it becomes public and seen to be "independent".

As it is, the resultant of this report has already been presented to cabinet weeks ago so you have to wonder why Irish Rail was off commissioning reports for the crack and who's actually picking up the tab on this

katierose1 · 22-02-2012 12:42PM

There is a core issue here - if our bus/rail services are 'public' transport options, should they be available both financially and on a comprehensively timetabled basis to all who need them?

Low cost tickets would encourage the use of a comprehensive service. The problem is that neither of our systems are 'comprehensive' or low cost. Routes and frequencies have been cut, especially with the move towards the car. Apart from the Luas (which has been successful, apart from the lack of link between the two lines) and some inter-city services, the majority of public and PPP investment over the last 10-12 years has been in the roads. One of the benefits of the celtic tiger years has been the motorway system but somehow the balance between road & rail was skewed. It needs to be remedied.

The conundrum is do we consider a cost/benefit basis - as a public service - or do we solely consider the need for a fast return on investment?

It seems to me that a balance between the two would be ideal but management/unionisation would appear to have been problematic in the past.

We don't appear to have the money at the moment to provide these public services when they are actually most needed - fewer and fewer people can afford a car yet they choose to keep them as there are no realistic options on public transport for the majority of both commuters and other occasional/tourist/off peak users. In the meantime, there is a strong lobby group trying to get even more motorways built .... probably at the expense of public transport/rail options.

Can we have some joined up thinking please?

AngryLips · 22-02-2012 12:49PM

"It is anticipated that without further service improvements, passenger numbers will not recover from their 2007 peak until after 2015," it warns.

What's happening in 2015 that we don't know about?

In fairness, the investment in the motorways didn't happen overnight. There was plenty of warning that journey times would become uncompetitive.

And don't IE get a subvention from the Dept of Social Protection for all those traveling for free?

Private Piles · 22-02-2012 01:22PM

Exactly they've had plenty of notice and time to plan.

Iarnrod Eireann only really seems to cater to OAPs and tourists who haven't a care in the world and find it all very quinte to be stopped in the middle of nowhere admiring rural Ireland while waiting for another train to pass.

Even the train stations themselves protray this, it's all pretty hanging baskets, old fashioned signs and one park bench.

Outside of Dublin, it's like they don't even consider commuters as a target market.

ebbsy · 22-02-2012 01:59PM

JeffK88 wrote: »

Maybe if they didn't keep increasing prices they might gain back some of the lost passengers. 19.90e return from newbridge while bus eireann at around 14e and dublin coach + luas to city centre in around 14.20e. Thats just one example.

True, I live in Monasterevin and the Dublincoach service is very reliable and affordable. The train is not really an option, in fact I cannot remember the last time I was on it ?

ebbsy · 22-02-2012 02:01PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

They are not working!

Dublin Coach Monasterevin to Naas €4 return on the hour 24/7

Irish Rail same journey 5 services monday-friday from Monasterevin(2 require change of train) but none between 7.45am and 8.12pm (discounts only apply to journeys to/from Dublin) Open return €14.70

+1

I live there so I can only agree.

LXFlyer · 22-02-2012 02:17PM

Private Piles wrote: »

Until very recently I used to commute by train between Ballinasloe and Galway.
Nearly every day there would be a 10 min delay at Woodlawn waiting for another train to pass and again at Atherny for about 5-10mins for exactly the same reason.

(It always reminded me of driving down a tiny country lane and pulling in so the other car can pass)

There was nearly 10-15mins of non-movement everyday, and that's not even taking into account any other delays along the way from Dublin.

On the motorway it takes approx. 20-30mins to get from Ballinasloe to Galway, it's not a difficult decision between the two!

Unfortunately on single track lines, waiting at passing loops for trains to cross is unavoidable. The "delay" as you call it is actually built into the timetable. One train will always have about 6 minutes added to the schedule to ensure reliability.

There is no way to guarantee arrival times without it.

There is no way around it without doubling the entire line.

bk · 22-02-2012 02:19PM

katierose1 wrote: »

We don't appear to have the money at the moment to provide these public services when they are actually most needed - fewer and fewer people can afford a car yet they choose to keep them as there are no realistic options on public transport for the majority of both commuters and other occasional/tourist/off peak users. In the meantime, there is a strong lobby group trying to get even more motorways built .... probably at the expense of public transport/rail options.

The thing is, in a small country like Ireland, you don't need rail to deliver intercity public transport. It can be done for a lot cheaper and more flexibly using high quality bus coach services.

There are many private bus operators just gagging to offer services that are in many cases faster then the trains, at a fraction of the cost to the customer and at no cost to the taxpayer. Just look at the likes of the new Dublin Coach service to Limerick or GoBus/CityLink to Galway.

I have yet to see any justification why we should continue to heavily subsidise intercity rail services. Not when we have such good alternatives.

bk · 22-02-2012 02:30PM

For a spend of €250m over five years, journey times could be reduced on most routes by 30 minutes, which would make the train competitive with the car.

It is this bit I'm not sure about. Even if we spend €250 million to reduce journey times by 30 minutes, I'm not sure it will win back significant numbers to Irish Rail, it is too little of an improvement.

Lets take a look at the Cork to Dublin line.

In the past it took about 3 hours by train and somewhere between 4 to 5 hours on a dangerous road by car. Back then taking the train was a no brainer.

Now it takes about 2h15m to 2h30m between most places in Cork and Dublin by car and it takes on average 2h47m by train.

So even if you take 30 minutes off the train journey, you are looking at 2h17m, which only about equals the car.

But then the problem is no one lives in a train station!! The car journey times are typical door to door times, but for the train you have to add extra time to get too and from the stations. As a Corkonian living in Dublin, for me it ends up adding about another 1h15m to the train journey time.

So for me, even if you knock 30 minutes off the train, the car is still much faster and also cheaper. I'm sure it is true also for most other people.

So I don't think we really get much benefit for "just" €250 million spent.

And I have to question the worth of spending €250 million to the economy. How does the economy benefit from this?

I just don't see any net benefit to the economy.

foggy_lad · 22-02-2012 02:38PM

Rail users Ireland spokesperson on the news at one now kissing IE ass. There might be a job out of the €50million a year?

dowlingm · 22-02-2012 02:40PM

mydiscworld wrote: »

So invest the 50m today. What's the problem? You just put up fares. Surely it's to upgrade your service?

Nothing to do with the fact that their subsidy got cut so? :rolleyes:

As for intercity bus services, some people don't like travelling by coach for various reasons - being stuck in a seat for hours doesn't appeal to some, no toilets on Bus Eireann buses, difficult to read or do work in a cramped seat etc. There is also the issue that even post motorway build some places are still relatively poorly served by road - this is why IE is competitive to places like Tullamore, also places like Charleville and the Mallow-Tralee line as a whole.

What IE needs is for politicians to stop acting as if they were transport planners and allow them to determine service priorities and ensure that they can increase revenues and therefore service without Finance immediately clawing back every penny preventing such improvements, but conversely that the cone of silence be lifted ("commercial confidentiality") with IE board meetings being held in public and more IE service planning documents made public because you can't act like a private company if you want a subsidy of a couple of hundred million euro a year.

The county councils must also keep their mouths firmly SHUT unless and until they are willing to financially contribute to the upkeep of the railways. If you look at where Amtrak is expanding in the states for example, it's in places like Illinois where the state co-funds the improvements. I don't just mean places like Wexford or Galway either, but Dublin too.

Shock, horror as passengers desert the railways!

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