Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Why is sexism such a difficult topic?

1…3031323335

Comments

  • #1022
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    I think this thread shows contentious issues can be discussed in a mature non point scoring way.
    I concur. We all appear to have reached a civil & respectful level now thankfully. (Thanks to you!) Kudos.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I haven't seen any alternative option being proposed TBH - mostly it's been denials that there is a problem.
    Frankly, I hope it does work. My concern is that it'll make little impact; my concern is that Ireland is too small & with too many representatives, so there will always be a parish mentality. In the end we'll have introduced more sexism; the ends won't have justified the means. And most worryingly we'll have set a precedent.
    K-9 wrote: »
    And the PSNI policy is sectarian?
    We're discussing sexism, which has progressed into the quotas for female politicians. You appear more keen to discuss curve-balls, why is that? [Consider that a rhetorical question]


  • #1023
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Zulu wrote: »

    We're discussing sexism, which has progressed into the quotas for female politicians. You appear more keen to discuss curve-balls, why is that? [Consider that a rhetorical question]

    Its a simple question with a simple Yes or no answer, relating to positive discrimination.

    No need for the smart replies, unless you actually don't want to answer it?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1024
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    K-9 wrote: »
    Its a simple question with a simple Yes or no answer, relating to positive discrimination.

    No need for the smart replies, unless you actually don't want to answer it?
    So this didn't answer it for you?
    It's sexual discrimination no matter what way you try to dress it up & I for one disagree with sexual discrimination & sexism.


  • #1025
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Zulu wrote: »
    So this didn't answer it for you?

    So you don't see the need for positive discrimination in a case like that?

    You should join the principled DUP!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1026
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Zulu wrote: »
    I concur. We all appear to have reached a civil & respectful level now thankfully. (Thanks to you!) Kudos.

    Frankly, I hope it does work. My concern is that it'll make little impact; my concern is that Ireland is too small & with too many representatives, so there will always be a parish mentality. In the end we'll have introduced more sexism; the ends won't have justified the means. And most worryingly we'll have set a precedent.

    We're discussing sexism, which has progressed into the quotas for female politicians. You appear more keen to discuss curve-balls, why is that? [Consider that a rhetorical question]

    I hope it works too - but I do see it as part of a general reform of how the Dáil 'works' (or doesn't) - quotas as a temporary measure to address the current - and historical - gender imbalance.

    We also need to change the situation where our parliament is rendered obsolete and all power is vested in the Cabinet (and their advisers), the abuse of the Whip System which means that we could replace backbenchers with monkeys trained to 'vote', The use of 'guillotine' tactics to force legislation through without a debate, the use of Statutory Instruments to enact new legislation, the whole system of expenses etc etc. Don't even get me started on the Seanad....

    I also thinks K-9's point is valid.


  • Advertisement
  • #1027
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I hope it works too - but I do see it as part of a general reform of how the Dáil 'works' (or doesn't) - quotas as a temporary measure to address the current - and historical - gender imbalance.
    I haven't seen any timeline proposed around these quotas - has there been one defined? If not, they aren't temporary.


  • #1028
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Bannasidhe wrote: »

    I also thinks K-9's point is valid.

    Yep, its as if positive discrimination being discriminatory is some new revelation and renders it null and void. The clue is in the name!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1029
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    hondasam wrote: »

    It was never about people changing other peoples views. It was about trying to change a culture of knocking a belief because it isn't agreed with. We should be able to completely oppose an opinion but still show a level of respect to the person who holds it.

    True but it works both ways respect needs to come from both parties.
    I though the thread was interesting and highlighted a few things for us to think about.


  • #1030
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Zulu wrote: »
    I haven't seen any timeline proposed around these quotas - has there been one defined? If not, they aren't temporary.
    Once number of women elected to Dáil reaches at least 40% of total number of TDs elected in one general election, & remains at that level following next 2 general elections, gender related criteria for State funding to political parties shall no longer apply to general elections to Dáil
    from the Seanad debate on the Electoral (Amendment) (Political Funding) Bill 2011 . Quote from a discussion on the merits of quotas (by a man :eek:) on http://5050-group.com/blog/

    The Seanad debate can be read here:
    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/seanad/2012/02/02/

    Is it just me or do some men seem incapable of conducting an internet search? That took 0.21 seconds to find...seriously guys - do some research.


  • #1031
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    [SIZE="1"]Is it just me or do some men seem incapable of conducting an internet search? That took 0.21 seconds to find...seriously guys - do some research. [/SIZE]
    I was about to thank you for posting the info, until you had the dig - seriously, the attitude it isn't nessisary. You posted it & I asked for info backing it up - its common practice. Do you search for proof on every comment others make, or polietly ask for the same?

    Come on; we were doing so well!


  • Advertisement
  • #1032
    stupidusername
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭stupidusername


    I agree that something needs to be done to encourage women into politics but it is absolutely the wrong way to go about it to introduce gender quotas. zulu puts it quite well in saying that it's tackling sexism with more sexism. maybe it will work, but does that mean it's a good idea? I mean the point of electing politicians is to get who you want in power, not who you want, as long as there's a fair balance between gender. there's nothing to say having more women would do anything for anything, other than quietening the feminists.


  • #1033
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Zulu wrote: »
    I was about to thank you for posting the info, until you had the dig - seriously, the attitude it isn't nessisary. You posted it & I asked for info backing it up - its common practice. Do you search for proof on every comment others make, or polietly ask for the same?

    Come on; we were doing so well!

    Come on - time after time after time claims are made and questions asked that a simple and quick internet search will provide the answer to. Is it unfair to ask that a person does even a minimum bit of personal research before posting?

    I research before I post, it takes seconds, as I like to be sure of my facts and have the evidence to back up my claims. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask people - and I said men because it has been men, if women were doing it I would have said some 'people' - to see if they can answer the question they are about to ask themselves before they ask it.

    It is very frustrating to be continually expected to provide all of the sources by people who seem reluctant to provide any but will fire out unsubstantiated claims and endless questions.


  • #1034
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Come on - time after time after time claims are made and questions asked that a simple and quick internet search will provide the answer to.
    I didn't notice any previous answers given to the temporary quotas in this thread. I think you are being disingenuous.
    Is it unfair to ask that a person does even a minimum bit of personal research before posting?
    If you post it, the onus is on you to back it up. Besides, I didn't doubt you, I just asked for you to share knowledge. Belittling me might have made you feel smart, but it was hardly civil, and certainly was unwarranted.
    It is very frustrating to be continually expected to provide all of the sources by people who seem reluctant to provide any but will fire out unsubstantiated claims and endless questions.
    Your blatantly sexist comment aside; you are being very disingenuous - where have I failed to provide a source? Where have I been reluctant to provide a source?? Where have I made unsubstantiated claims???

    My god, it doesn't take long for the veil to fall, does it!


  • #1035
    --Kaiser--
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭--Kaiser--


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Come on - time after time after time claims are made and questions asked that a simple and quick internet search will provide the answer to. Is it unfair to ask that a person does even a minimum bit of personal research before posting?

    I research before I post, it takes seconds, as I like to be sure of my facts and have the evidence to back up my claims. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask people - and I said men because it has been men, if women were doing it I would have said some 'people' - to see if they can answer the question they are about to ask themselves before they ask it.

    It is very frustrating to be continually expected to provide all of the sources by people who seem reluctant to provide any but will fire out unsubstantiated claims and endless questions.

    It's generally accepted that if you are going to assert something then you should be able to provide sources and evidence for the same. No need to act childish


  • #1036
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Zulu wrote: »
    I didn't notice any previous answers given to the temporary quotas in this thread. I think you are being disingenuous.
    If you post it, the onus is on you to back it up. Besides, I didn't doubt you, I just asked for you to share knowledge. Belittling me might have made you feel smart, but it was hardly civil, and certainly was unwarranted.

    Your blatantly sexist comment aside; you are being very disingenuous - where have I failed to provide a source? Where have I been reluctant to provide a source?? Where have I made unsubstantiated claims???

    My god, it doesn't take long for the veil to fall, does it!

    I was not belittling you - I did not single you out in anyway and I think in trying to personalise my expression of general frustration at people refusing to inform themselves but demanding they be spoonfed information is unnecessary and disingenuous.

    You asked a question - was the onus not on you to see if you could find out the answer before you asked it? Or, perhaps, you believed that a time limit had not been set so were attempting to score points? When that failed, you are now trying to make things personal and claim I was 'sexist' against you.

    Go back over this thread -

    A. Count how many claims have been made that provided no evidence whatsoever.

    B. Count how many questions were asked that could have been answered by the poster themselves if they had done even a modicum of research.

    C. Count how many claims have provided extensive proof and evidence.

    D. Count how many posters have answered questions by linking sources.

    Now - what you will see is that the majority of A/B have been male critics of feminism while the majority of C/D had been male and female supporters of feminism.

    You might want to pick that veil up BTW, it will get destroyed there on the floor.


  • #1037
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    --Kaiser-- wrote: »
    It's generally accepted that if you are going to assert something then you should be able to provide sources and evidence for the same. No need to act childish

    Indeed it is - why don't you tell that to the people who don't do that?

    Childish? Really?


  • #1038
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    You asked a question - was the onus not on you to see if you could find out the answer before you asked it?

    No. The onus is always on the person making the claim to provide the relevant links/quotes/etc.

    If your claim were untrue Zulu could have spent a lifetime looking for something that didn't exist. For that reason whoever makes the claim provides the evidence.

    That's a general rule regardless if you're discussing something on Boards, between your friends in real life or on the academic or political stage.


  • #1039
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I was not belittling you - I did not single you out in anyway
    Excuse me, you posted this:
    Is it just me or do some men seem incapable of conducting an internet search? That took 0.21 seconds to find...seriously guys - do some research.
    in response to a question I asked.
    You asked a question - was the onus not on you to see if you could find out the answer before you asked it?
    No. You made a claim. You had the knowledge, and I asked for it.
    When that failed, you are now trying to make things personal and claim I was 'sexist' against you.
    Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear enough - my comment on "blatant sexism" was levelled at this comment of yours:
    and I said men because it has been men, if women were doing it I would have said some 'people' - to see if they can answer the question they are about to ask themselves before they ask it.
    Throughout this thread, women & men have been equally "guilty" of not seeking answers to questions before asking. Singling out men as being solely guilty is both disingenuous & sexist.
    Now - what you will see is that the majority of A/B have been male critics of feminism while the majority of C/D had been male and female supporters of feminism.
    Wow, just wow.


  • #1040
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Seachmall wrote: »
    No. The onus is always on the person making the claim to provide the relevant links/quotes/etc.

    If your claim were untrue Zulu could have spent a lifetime looking for something that didn't exist. For that reason whoever makes the claim provides the evidence.

    That's a general rule regardless if you're discussing something on Boards or on the academic or political stage.

    I DID.

    Now did the person who made this statement, who is coincidently among those currently having a go, provide any evidence of this claim?
    Boys and girls have different brains, different temperaments, different glands and different bodies. Saying that gender is a purely social construct is bull****
    a scientific study perhaps?

    Is there a rake of post chastising them for their failure to provide any evidence of this claim?.... No....

    Double standards much?

    Feminists on this thread have posed endless links to definitions of feminism, to debates on quotas, to legislation etc etc - a lot of those not in support of claims they have made but to refute claims made by critics of feminism who provided no evidence whatsoever.

    Yet, I am condemned for getting frustrated at this...


  • #1041
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I was not belittling you - I did not single you out in anyway and I think in trying to personalise my expression of general frustration at people refusing to inform themselves but demanding they be spoonfed information is unnecessary and disingenuous.

    You asked a question - was the onus not on you to see if you could find out the answer before you asked it? Or, perhaps, you believed that a time limit had not been set so were attempting to score points? When that failed, you are now trying to make things personal and claim I was 'sexist' against you.

    Go back over this thread -

    A. Count how many claims have been made that provided no evidence whatsoever.

    B. Count how many questions were asked that could have been answered by the poster themselves if they had done even a modicum of research.

    C. Count how many claims have provided extensive proof and evidence.

    D. Count how many posters have answered questions by linking sources.

    Now - what you will see is that the majority of A/B have been male critics of feminism while the majority of C/D had been male and female supporters of feminism.

    You might want to pick that veil up BTW, it will get destroyed there on the floor.

    Is this not point scoring?

    The point in asking a question is to get other posters points of view.

    I was under the impression we all wanted equality.


  • Advertisement
  • #1042
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    hondasam wrote: »
    Is this not point scoring?

    The point in asking a question is to get other posters points of view.

    I was under the impression we all wanted equality.

    No that is examining the evidence and coming to conclusion based on the available evidence.


  • #1043
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Zulu wrote: »
    Excuse me, you posted this:
    in response to a question I asked.

    No. You made a claim. You had the knowledge, and I asked for it.
    Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear enough - my comment on "blatant sexism" was levelled at this comment of yours:

    Throughout this thread, women & men have been equally "guilty" of not seeking answers to questions before asking. Singling out men as being solely guilty is both disingenuous & sexist.
    Wow, just wow.

    Did you fail to see the word 'some'? Did that somehow morph into the word 'all'?


  • #1044
    Roy Yummy Grenade
    Posts: 0 ✭ Roy Yummy Grenade


    Zulu wrote: »
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Come on - time after time after time claims are made and questions asked that a simple and quick internet search will provide the answer to.
    I didn't notice any previous answers given to the temporary quotas in this thread. I think you are being disingenuous.
    Your blatantly sexist comment aside; you are being very disingenuous - where have I failed to provide a source? Where have I been reluctant to provide a source?? Where have I made unsubstantiated claims???

    My god, it doesn't take long for the veil to fall, does it![/Quote]

    Sorry but where was the blatant sexist comment ? I think some people would start a fight in an empty room :/


  • #1045
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    hondasam wrote: »
    Is this not point scoring?

    The point in asking a question is to get other posters points of view.

    I was under the impression we all wanted equality.

    It's equality for some, miniature American flags for others.


  • #1046
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    No that is examining the evidence and coming to conclusion based on the available evidence.
    B. Count how many questions were asked that could have been answered by the poster themselves if they had done even a modicum of research.

    Everyone could so this, what would be the point in having a discussion then.
    We will never learn or see other points of view if this is your answer.


  • #1047
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I DID.

    Now did the person who made this statement, who is coincidently among those currently having a go, provide any evidence of this claim?
    It would be nice if you credited that claim to a person. Am I supposed to have made it?
    a scientific study perhaps?
    Because I know I did offer a link to a horizon study.
    Feminists on this thread have posed endless links to definitions of feminism,
    ...and quickly stated that feminism isn't a hive mind, and that each feminist has their own interpretation - which I accept.
    Yet, I am condemned for getting frustrated at this...
    No, I was condemning you for having a go at me for making a reasonable request, for getting pissy when there was no need, especially considering the thread had been civil till then.


  • #1048
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Roy Yummy Grenade wrote: »
    Sorry but where was the blatant sexist comment ?
    I address that in this post: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77208220&postcount=1040 :)


  • #1049
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I DID.

    Now did the person who made this statement, who is coincidently among those currently having a go, provide any evidence of this claim?

    a scientific study perhaps?

    Is there a rake of post chastising them for their failure to provide any evidence of this claim?.... No....

    Double standards much?

    You are entitled to ask for a source and if one is not provided you can address it at face value or dismiss it.

    That's up to you.

    However you chastised Zulu for asking for a source and implied the onus was on him to find it himself.

    That is wrong. That's what I was addressing.

    No double standards here.


  • #1050
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Did you fail to see the word 'some'? Did that somehow morph into the word 'all'?
    Using the word "some" doesn't mitigate the fact the it was only men you applied that to. Therein lies the blatant sexism. Either that or not a single female poster across 1000 odd posts, failed to research every single question they thought of prior to asking it.


  • Advertisement
  • #1051
    Roy Yummy Grenade
    Posts: 0 ✭ Roy Yummy Grenade


    Zulu wrote: »
    Roy Yummy Grenade wrote: »
    Sorry but where was the blatant sexist comment ?
    I address that in this post: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77208220&postcount=1040 :)
    Hard to see if that was sexist ? As it is out of context ? Plus disagree with u there thread has hardly been civil i was asked if i was taking the piss:)
    Anyways i feel that this is getting bogged down in frankly petty squabbles no matter how you want to dress them up .


Advertisement