can i put shoplifters on Youtube?

My name is URL · 19-02-2012 02:41AM

Go for it. Unless the perps were Roma or Irish nomads.. in which case it would be racist and an unrealistic portrayal of their culture.

Scumbag single mothers called Jacinta carrying a 'Bag for Life', though.. fair game.

leggo · 19-02-2012 02:41AM

Stuffins, this is what I do for a living...I have to train people about the in's and out's of this stuff on a day-to-day basis...why do you presume you know more than me? Sigh.

Shops are targeted on small issues such as staff giving 'cheek' to thieves (by approaching them and rightly spotting what they're up to)...it's not a stretch at all to say that if you attempt to identify and humiliate criminals on a grand scale they'll come after you out of spite. If they find out, I 100% guarantee that they will!

It's illegal for people to spread CCTV beyond those involved in the case, so say the store staff and legal authorities. People have a right to privacy and while the law allows leeway to identify those working outside its boundaries, it doesn't make it a free-for-all.

Why? Because it is also quite hard to prove theft using just CCTV, as you must also prove intent to deceive, so you are libelling them when they can simply claim they 'forgot' to pay and said footage does nothing to prove otherwise...even though everybody watching knows the score. If I falsely accuse someone of theft in my job and can't prove it beyond full doubt, they will be awarded thousands out of court. That happens on a daily basis (not with me, though, for the record

)

Recording it on your iPhone is another uncharted territory that I suspect will be cracked down upon eventually. Don't assume that just because you've seen videos before and there were no charges brought against the recorders (that you know of) that it is legal or you won't trip yourself up somewhere along the line. Again, you're giving the law too much credit by applying sound logic towards it.

And the 'right way', however you or I may see it as arse backward, is STILL the law. So we must abide by it. Else what makes us different from those we're trying to shame except some Robin Hood-style sense of righteousness?

Like I said, I GET the frustration. I've been there, I feel it myself every day. But this is nothing more than a fun, but dumb, idea and should stay that way.

uberalles · 19-02-2012 02:44AM

Next time chase them up the road in your car and get your stuff back ! Oh wait .....

Thieves have rights too you know, probably more rights than you

oppenheimer1 · 19-02-2012 02:47AM

Have we all forgotten the Monkstown Taxi debacle already?

Don't put those videos online, they will be more trouble than they're worth.

MrStuffins · 19-02-2012 02:54AM

leggo wrote: »

Stuffins, this is what I do for a living...I have to train people about the in's and out's of this stuff on a day-to-day basis...why do you presume you know more than me? Sigh.

Eh? Where di I presume I know more than you? Don't get your panties in a knot! I'm just having a discussion here! Little did I know of your prominant stature in the security community! Good man!

You haven't told us much of what you DO know in regards to this situation, just examples of similar situations. If this IS your job and you really do know the answers, then tell us what's illegal and what's not illegal and put the discussion to bed!

Shops are targeted on small issues such as staff giving 'cheek' to thieves (by approaching them and rightly spotting what they're up to)...it's not a stretch at all to say that if you attempt to identify and humiliate criminals on a grand scale they'll come after you out of spite. If they find out, I 100% guarantee that they will!

Well you said "they will" rather than "they might" without actually knowing anything about the shop or the people. In that way it was a bit of a leap I hope you can see.

It's illegal for people to spread CCTV beyond those involved in the case, so say the store staff and legal authorities. People have a right to privacy and while the law allows leeway to identify those working outside its boundaries, it doesn't make it a free-for-all.

My understanding is that CCTV falls under the data protection act. Now, speaking in real world terms here, if the subject of the CCTV was to make a complaint wouldn't that be admission of guilt of the crime being captured?

Again, you seem to be the expert here, it's your job after all so you tell me. I'm just having a discussion here!

Why? Because it is also quite hard to prove theft using just CCTV, as you must also prove intent to deceive, so you are libelling them when they can simply claim they 'forgot' to pay and said footage does nothing to prove otherwise...even though everybody watching knows the score. If I falsely accuse someone of theft in my job and can't prove it beyond full doubt, they will be awarded thousands out of court. That happens on a daily basis.

But you're not falsely accusing them are you? It's in plain sight (I presume) on CCTV. If it's as cut and ry as it sounds ("Forgot to pay" won't cut it when they're seen to have been stuffing them into their knickers)

And the 'right way', however you or I may see it as arse backward, is STILL the law. So we must abide by it. Else what makes us different from those we're trying to shame except some Robin Hood-style sense of righteousness?

I don't condone vigilanteism. What I DO condone is people standing up for themselves as long as it falls within the parameters of the law.

uck51js9zml2yt · 19-02-2012 02:59AM

leggo wrote: »

Stuffins, this is what I do for a living...I have to train people about the in's and out's of this stuff on a day-to-day basis...why do you presume you know more than me? Sigh.

Shops are targeted on small issues such as staff giving 'cheek' to thieves (by approaching them and rightly spotting what they're up to)...it's not a stretch at all to say that if you attempt to identify and humiliate criminals on a grand scale they'll come after you out of spite. If they find out, I 100% guarantee that they will!

It's illegal for people to spread CCTV beyond those involved in the case, so say the store staff and legal authorities. People have a right to privacy and while the law allows leeway to identify those working outside its boundaries, it doesn't make it a free-for-all.

Why? Because it is also quite hard to prove theft using just CCTV, as you must also prove intent to deceive, so you are libelling them when they can simply claim they 'forgot' to pay and said footage does nothing to prove otherwise...even though everybody watching knows the score. If I falsely accuse someone of theft in my job and can't prove it beyond full doubt, they will be awarded thousands out of court. That happens on a daily basis (not with me, though, for the record )

Recording it on your iPhone is another uncharted territory that I suspect will be cracked down upon eventually. Don't assume that just because you've seen videos before and there were no charges brought against the recorders (that you know of) that it is legal or you won't trip yourself up somewhere along the line. Again, you're giving the law too much credit by applying sound logic towards it.

And the 'right way', however you or I may see it as arse backward, is STILL the law. So we must abide by it. Else what makes us different from those we're trying to shame except some Robin Hood-style sense of righteousness?

Like I said, I GET the frustration. I've been there, I feel it myself every day. But this is nothing more than a fun, but dumb, idea and should stay that way.

There is also the copyright issue . They have not given you permission to use the images for public dissemination.

Give the cctv to the gardai .let them deal with it.
You can ban them from coming into the shop once youve a notice up.

leggo · 19-02-2012 03:07AM

Exactly, stand up to them by tackling them in the many ways that are available to retailers (especially clever ones). Improving their security systems in terms of laying out the store, tagging, employing dedicated security staff etc. There are a million ways to tackle it without getting yourself in a ****storm that pisses off both the thieves, Gardai, courts and also helps other thieves in the process! But it's great craic for AH readers...

The criminal wouldn't likely seek revenge by complaining to the authorities, I'm just pointing out the law breaks the OP would incur along the way. Once you put up a vid of someone calling them a 'shoplifter', and they haven't been convicted as such, you're law-abiding plan goes out the window. Meanwhile you've just pissed off a bunch of criminals while becoming one yourself.

I don't have any authority within the industry, I just work full-time in it, have done so for years and do quite a good job of I say so myself. I didn't mean to come across condascending, but I hear these ridiculous plans daily and there's always the same bad logic behind it from people who haven't spent a day working in the industry...so simply don't understand the MANY unwitting consequences they'd be setting themselves up for. So I apologise if it came across that way, but for god's sake listen to some sense. This plan is a disaster waiting to happen, simple as.

Though sometimes people have to make their own mistakes to learn from them, so by all means post the vids OP if you want and see how it goes. Just know that the plan will either fall flat or, if it works, you'll be ****ed. It's a lose-lose. But if it makes you feel better...

mcmoustache · 19-02-2012 03:15AM

Put up a sign in the shop saying:

"Videos of shoplifters will be uploaded to youtube. By shoplifting, shoplifters enter into a contract with the proprietor whereby they agree to transfer all ownership of intellectual property relating to said shoplifting to the proprietor."

LostCorkGuy · 19-02-2012 03:18AM

MrStuffins wrote: »

How exactly would showing CCTV on You Tube consist of libel? Nobody has accused anyone in this scenario.

The very wording of the OP , he said the shop was robbed and he has vidoes of them apparently putting clothing inside their pants , thats an accusation in my view

MrStuffins · 19-02-2012 03:22AM

LostCorkGuy wrote: »

The very wording of the OP , he said the shop was robbed and he has vidoes of them apparently putting clothing inside their pants , thats an accusation in my view

An accusation of what? Putting clothes inside their pants?

LostCorkGuy · 19-02-2012 03:26AM

MrStuffins wrote: »

An accusation of what? Putting clothes inside their pants?

Of criminal damage by leaving skid marks on what ever they stuffed down ,

harrison fraud · 19-02-2012 03:47AM

I have them clearly using a de-tagger and stuffing them inside their pants ,then buying other stock at the desk..so have close ups of their faces too

Thing is they are local and supposedly upstanding pillars of the community...three of them working as a team and probably doing the same to other businesses on the street...its hard enough as it is to stay afloat

I know if i do upload the video(i have it on my phone now)they will be the talk of the town..esp if i put it on the shops facebook page

bandit197 · 19-02-2012 03:52AM

upload it or GTFO, 3 pages and no video...

Buffman · 19-02-2012 04:00AM

OP, have you tried your local Garda? Sounds like you have an easy case for them.

If they haven't been convicted then I wouldn't post anything yet as you may affect any future court action.

If they have been found guilty then post away.

oppenheimer1 · 19-02-2012 04:01AM

harrison fraud wrote: »

I have them clearly using a de-tagger and stuffing them inside their pants ,then buying other stock at the desk..so have close ups of their faces too

Thing is they are local and supposedly upstanding pillars of the community...three of them working as a team and probably doing the same to other businesses on the street...its hard enough as it is to stay afloat

I know if i do upload the video(i have it on my phone now)they will be the talk of the town..esp if i put it on the shops facebook page

I call BS. You know who they are and have evidence of the crime, why not go to the guards?

Atlantis50 · 19-02-2012 04:04AM

LostCorkGuy wrote: »

I would think that you could be sued for libel as you're accusing people of being theives even though they havent been brought to court yet , so I'd advise against it

Phrase the video "Alleged shoplifters..."

Atlantis50 · 19-02-2012 04:06AM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I call BS. You know who they are and have evidence of the crime, why not go to the guards?

Can't the person do both?

The video could then be titled "Sought by the Garda for alleged shoplifting"

MrStuffins · 19-02-2012 04:10AM

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Phrase the video "Alleged shoplifters..."

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Can't the person do both?

The video could then be titled "Sought by the Garda for alleged shoplifting"

No need to use the word "shoplifting" at all. Just describe them as "clearly using a detagger and putting items doen their pants"....... which is what they're doing

harrison fraud · 19-02-2012 04:16AM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I call BS. You know who they are and have evidence of the crime, why not go to the guards?

No BS ill put the video up here in the morn....sure what will the guards do?...slap on the wrists is all they can do...

This way the fcukers will be labelled for life around here as thieves

nua domhan · 19-02-2012 04:41AM

There's this.......

http://www.scene.co.nz/292240a1.page (Bouncer in Altitude bar Queenstown debacle)

but then he was pissing off the queens goddaughters husband and the England rugby squad. And he probably shouldn;t have had access to the CCTV anyway.

I always thought that in a public area it was accepted that the assumption of the right to privacy was voided - cue actresses and upskirt shots in the streets.

Not sure how it would work on your own premises though - how do we get to see so much CCTV on crimewatch etc if its illegal to show without consent?

Anyway - I'll need to see the video to reserve judgement - if you wanna send it on to me in good faith i'll make sure it definately doesnt get on youtube!

The Scientician · 19-02-2012 04:47AM

nua domhan wrote: »

There's this.......

http://www.scene.co.nz/292240a1.page (Bouncer in Altitude bar Queenstown debacle)

but then he was pissing off the queens goddaughters husband and the England rugby squad. And he probably shouldn;t have had access to the CCTV anyway.

In that case, the management of the premises complained about a staff member having unauthorised access to footage. That's not germane to the OP's question unless he doesn't intend asking his wife's permission.

mcmoustache · 19-02-2012 04:54AM

It may be worth trying the Legal Discussion forum. Personally, and I'm very ignorant when it comes to matters of law so don't take this as gospel, I think you're entitled to put your own cctv from your own shop on youtube.

Remember that taxi runner incident? Notice how the driver was never prosecuted or sued? There was no slander involved. He just showed a recording of what happened. I think you would only be in trouble if the people in the video somehow turned out not to be shoplifters or if they were misidentified.

Just don't identify anyone yourself - let the public do that and don't accuse anyone of anything. In the video, call them "Alleged Shoplifters" or "Alleged Detaggers" or something. I doubt that you would ever be prosecuted by the state for this or that a jury could find you guilty. I don't even know what you could be charged with.

It's possible that you could be sued in a civil trial. Although truth is a good defence against slander, it's not absolute. If you expose the information with the intent to damage the reputation of someone, you could still be on the hook. It may be worth editing your posts in case you gave the impression that you want these people's reputations damaged. Just to be ob the safe side. I'll edit this one tomorrow to remove this paragraph.

If you go ahead with posting the video, you can forget about going to the Gárdaí. Any potential trial will be prejudiced by the video so they probably won't pursue it. It's one or the other.

I hope you post the video. Just be careful not to say anything silly on the internet.

CrazyRabbit · 19-02-2012 05:49AM

Post the video.

If there are any complaints, just say the videotape was also shoplifted and that you have no idea how it got onto Youtube.

leggo · 19-02-2012 11:24AM

Haha, the word alleged isn't a sufficient defence against libel. You're still planting the idea in the minds of others.

OP you're getting a lot of massively amateur and misguided legal advice here...all because people are just being nosy, as usual, and don't really give a **** if you end up getting yourself in more trouble.

It's like when kids pressure two others to fight each other, convincing them that the winner will be popular and loved, and the saps believe them. All they wanna see here is a bit of drama.

ScouseMouse · 19-02-2012 11:34AM

I did the same but I put them on Facebook.

I printed out their photos and displayed them in the shop window. They went mad as their mates were all laughing at them. Have not seen them since.

Another one was in the bail hostel/kip/doss house B and B next door. I printed out his photo and had the night porter put it under his door. He was into me within 15 minutes.

What about the third one, "would this gentleman please contact the owner" and his photo. Within two days I had his full name and address and he was in threatening me as he was being laughed at. I asked him did he enjoy his Roscrea rasher breakfast;) If you are so innocent, sue me, but I have the video !

BE ADVISED.

There are data protection laws about this. You need to be very careful and watch what you are doing. Just because I did it, doesn't mean you can !

ScouseMouse · 19-02-2012 11:41AM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Post the video.

If there are any complaints, just say the videotape was also shoplifted and that you have no idea how it got onto Youtube.

That is the stupidest post I think I have ever read.

Imagine standing up in court and saying you have a defence, but it was stolen.

You would be laughed at. And lose your case.

lividduck · 19-02-2012 11:47AM

harrison fraud wrote: »

No BS ill put the video up here in the morn....sure what will the guards do?...slap on the wrists is all they can do...

This way the fcukers will be labelled for life around here as thieves

be very careful because you WILL end up in court under the Data Protection Act for a start.
That said I think ypu should hand the footage over to the guards.

ringadingding · 19-02-2012 11:51AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrtLfxBTcpQ

biko · 19-02-2012 11:52AM

Boards cannot give legal advice. If you do post these videos on youtube there may be problems, or not.

can i put shoplifters on Youtube?

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