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Can Ireland play good attacking rugby in the future without huge centres?

  • 18-02-2012 5:58pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭dtpc191991


    Everyone's going on about it at all levels i think it needs its own thread.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 751 ✭✭✭lologram


    I don't think it's that worthy of a new thread. The answer is a simple YES. The key is not the size of the centres or anyone else. Ireland could field a team of 20ft tall giants but it would be no use to anyone if they kick the ball to the other team the whole time, or indulge in any of the other poor tactics of the current team.

    If the other team has the ball they can score and you can't. It's that simple.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    BOD, Darcy, Berrick Barnes, Faingaa, Ioane may all have something to say about that. They're just the small centers off the top of my head I can think off.. but there's plenty more out there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    BOD is several orders of magnitude better than any enormous Welsh centre. Size is irrelevant, mostly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    It's a non issue in my book. If size was all that important, than we have the players now and coming through who are big enough - Griffin 6'1, McSharry 6'2, Sheridan 6'4, and Farrell 6'4. But it's not the be all and end all so yeh...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    This size issue gets dragged up every few years when a few big backs come into some form. Non issue


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  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭Leinster7


    As I've mentioned in another post this sort of question really just shows up the ignorance of those people asking it or stating it. Ireland didn't lose to Wales because we have smaller centres. Such nonsense and I urge you to tell those 'people' who are spouting this stuff to learn a bit more about the game of rugby. Conrad Smith was 6,1 if I recall, hardly a monster centre and easily NZ's best centre for years....


  • Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭RoundBox11


    It's a good question alright. But i'd agree that its not essential to have big centres.

    It's about being able to use the size. Look at guys like Matt Banahan. Big guy but hes pretty useless at international level. Id pick Eoin O'Malley over him every time. The reason the Welsh and French midfields are so good isnt just because they are so big it's because they know how to use their size to maximise their effectiveness. Similarly if a small centre knows how to use their quickness, pace etc, they can be just as good.

    The easy way to answer it is to look at BOD. Even when he was at his very best he wasnt overly big. In fact im pretty sure that around 2005 he was lighter than he is now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭RoundBox11


    Leinster7 wrote: »
    Conrad Smith was 6,1 if I recall, hardly a monster centre and easily NZ's best centre for years....


    Really? Over Nonu? :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭Leinster7


    RoundBox11 wrote: »
    Really? Over Nonu? :P

    imo yes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭Benny Cake


    They play different positions but if it was a straight choice, I'd have Smith over Nonu every time.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I would definitely agree that Smith is the more talented of the two.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Totally different players used for totally different roles. Smith could not do what Nonu does and Nonu could not do what Smith does. Apples and oranges. May as well compare Keith Gleeson and Simon Easterby.

    L7, aside from yourself, I don't know who is specifying Wales' bigger back line as being the reason they beat us.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭Webbs


    Generally I would guess a good big un will be preferable to a good little un.

    The welsh backs as I am assuming this is where the OP is coming from, arent just big but have good skills both with feet and hands and run good lines (unlike say Matt Banahan) without the skills then they wouldnt be in the welsh set up so if your big of course it helps to break tackles etc but you still need the skill and awareness to exploit the space. (Something the likes of BOD and Smith were always masters of)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,976 ✭✭✭profitius


    It depends on style of play. Warren Gatland has designed a gameplan that suits the big Welsh backs. It is simple but effective. They just keep hold of the ball and aim to make the hard yards rather than try and cut open defenses. Its like a sledgehammer vs the Australian sword. I use the Aussies as an example because they beat Wales fairly easily a few months back and they have plenty of small, skillful players.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    profitius wrote: »
    Warren Gatland has designed a gameplan that suits the big Welsh backs

    I think this is the most relevant point. Wales are simply playing to their strengths. Ireland aren't.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    No



    Or maybe we could stop playing such a static gameplan. If you let bigger players run at you from a distance you have to have a good tackle technique which unfortunately a few of our players don't have to stop them. If you want to cause them problems when you have the ball you have to play at a level that doesn't allow them get set in defence and have them getting bored waiting for you to attack.

    If your opponent has a much stringer physical advantage over you you have to use your brain to beat them. We didn't do this against Wales and hence we lost.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭Webbs


    Brian Moore had this to say about the a big back line in this case the welsh.

    "Wales in the backline are going to cause people problems, with sheer size and power. You can defend as much as you like but over 80 minutes someone is going to have an arm tackle on a guy who is 6ft-plus, and 15-16st and quite quick and powerful, and they are going to run through them and cause trouble.''


    However the welsh showed back in the WC against Ireland that quick line speed in defence closes down the space to get up a head of steam and can nullify big powerful runners, something Ireland didnt do in the last match.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Webbs wrote: »
    Brian Moore had this to say about the a big back line in this case the welsh.

    "Wales in the backline are going to cause people problems, with sheer size and power. You can defend as much as you like but over 80 minutes someone is going to have an arm tackle on a guy who is 6ft-plus, and 15-16st and quite quick and powerful, and they are going to run through them and cause trouble.''


    However the welsh showed back in the WC against Ireland that quick line speed in defence closes down the space to get up a head of steam and can nullify big powerful runners, something Ireland didnt do in the last match.
    Strong runners will break a weak shoulder over 80 minutes, but creative ball control and evasive/intelligent running will exploit unfocused defenses in the same way. It all comes out in the wash, it's just a case of using what you have to the fullest which is something Ireland don't do.

    Davies and Roberts are great players but neither are massively creative. They are dependent on either a fly half keying into their attacking lines in open play, or using brute force in set piece situations, which is a very low percentage approach (as Gaffney would tell you!). If an aggressive defense was able to shut down Phillips/Priestland they'd be far less dangerous... Ireland just defended quite passively in that area and Priestland had a fun day out because of that. Kiss has to really take the blame on that one.

    I think we're just fine for centers going forward. McFadden/Spence/Fitzgerald(?) at 12 and O'Malley/Cave/Griffin at 13 should all be international standard players. I don't think the quality of player available to Ireland has anything to do with their poor form since 2009 to be honest, nor do I think a difference in quality between Welsh and Irish players has anything to do with the last 3 results.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭matthew8


    Of course we can. But we can't play attacking rugby by putting people out of position like McFadden at 13.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    matthew8 wrote: »
    Of course we can. But we can't play attacking rugby by putting people out of position like McFadden at 13.

    Hard to believe but McFadden is actually a 13 by trade. It's his first choice position and the position he was developed in.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 756 ✭✭✭4PP


    The question that shold be asked, imho, is Can Ireland play good attacking rugby ?


    As of now the answer is no, hopefully that will change next weekend & for the three that follow


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,976 ✭✭✭profitius


    Watching Stade against Toulon tonight. Matt Giteau was playing 12 and a class above the others.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭matthew8


    GerM wrote: »
    Hard to believe but McFadden is actually a 13 by trade. It's his first choice position and the position he was developed in.

    Ah yes, I remember him playing 13, but really he looks well and truly like a 12 now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    I don't know who said this was a silly topic. It is a critical topic in the current development of the game. If size becomes decisive then it changes one whole area of the game.

    'Huge', however, is not needed. But what is needed are centres who can consistently tackle big guys! And right now we don't have them. McFadden, O'Malley, Wallace cannot tackle big guys. They have shown that consistently. D'Arcy can and O'Driscoll can.

    D'Arcy and O'Driscoll also developed a double teaming strategy that they honed to perfection. That allowed them to seal off the midfield no matter who the opposition were.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    McFadden can tackle big guys just fine. His problem is positioning, the same as Earls, he's just not in the position to execute a proper tackle occasionally. His big miss against Wales was a poor tackle but it was D'Arcy's tackle to make and he had to adjust at the last second to make it - BOD would have made it but it's not his size that stopped him from doing so.

    Ireland's issue is not that the backs are small, it's that they have relied on BOD for far, far too long to help them in both attack and defense. In a blitz defense he was always the shooter, he always get right onto the ball to slow things down. Without him Ireland were passive (ridiculously so, and Kiss needs to take some blame for this) and that's what the big problem was. The only time Ireland really missed a tackle thanks to the Welsh backs' size was McFadden on North and that was more a misalignment then anything else.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    I don't think this would be a debate if we had an actual backs coach. I even saw BOD mention that there is a trend at the moment for huge centres but like anything in sport it is just the trend of the moment and won't last forever.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    McFaddens problem in defense is technical. Poor footwork and even poorer body position. Gives up so many weak "soak" tackles. Unfortunately there's no McQuilkan here any more to sort him out.

    He has been primarilly a 12 for the majority of his professional career. He's a lot better suited to playing there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    The trend towards giant backlines will continue for a while, then in a couple of years someone will face Wales with a pair of five-foot-nine centres and steal ball at the breakdown all day long (because whatever the attributes of a six-foot-four centre, cleaning out someone who's a solid six inches lower than you can comfortably go is unlikely to be one of them). Then the whole cycle will repeat itself.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭almighty1


    Leinster7 wrote: »
    As I've mentioned in another post this sort of question really just shows up the ignorance of those people asking it or stating it. Ireland didn't lose to Wales because we have smaller centres. Such nonsense and I urge you to tell those 'people' who are spouting this stuff to learn a bit more about the game of rugby. .

    What a incredibly conceited and narcissistic post. OP posed a perfectly valid question.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    Ok, so if we assume that the answer is no, we can't compete with big centres, what do we do then? It's not like D'Arcy, Earls, McFadden are being picked at the expense of a couple of strapping 17 stone monsters, we have to adapt our play to what we have and go from there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Piliger wrote: »
    I don't know who said this was a silly topic. It is a critical topic in the current development of the game. If size becomes decisive then it changes one whole area of the game.

    'Huge', however, is not needed. But what is needed are centres who can consistently tackle big guys! And right now we don't have them. McFadden, O'Malley, Wallace cannot tackle big guys. They have shown that consistently. D'Arcy can and O'Driscoll can.

    D'Arcy and O'Driscoll also developed a double teaming strategy that they honed to perfection. That allowed them to seal off the midfield no matter who the opposition were.

    How on earth did you come to that conclusion? I hate using 1 example to prove a point, but Banahan picked out O'Malley and was running fult tilt, and O'Malley dumped him on his backside. Likewise D'Arcy was flattened v France last year by a larger player.

    Obviously this isn't conclusive proof, but you cannot simply make a sweeping statement like that, especially when (at least McFadden + EOM) have shown they can. If anything, I would trust those in defence more than D'Arcy as he currently is.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Ok, so if we assume that the answer is no, we can't compete with big centres, what do we do then? It's not like D'Arcy, Earls, McFadden are being picked at the expense of a couple of strapping 17 stone monsters, we have to adapt our play to what we have and go from there.

    Exactly, we can't play the way we did against Wales again. We were far too slow. If you give a defence time to get set, it will get set. We did this repeatedly in the game. When you're on the defence against bigger players you have to have a good tackling technique (Morgan Parra on Ma Nonu in the RWC final for example). Rob Kearney can't tackle, McFadden has his moments, Trimble tends to run in hard on the guy but get bounced because he doesn't wrap his arms around the tacklee, and D'arcy doesnt look hungry enough (for Wales's first try he wasn't even handed off properly yet still could do nothing to stop Davies even though he had a very good angle on him)

    I'm beginning to get worried about the tour to NZ now. If we play against them like we did against Wales we'll get another 66 points put on us.

    To put it in perspective our team that day was:

    Kearney, Trimble, BOD, D'Arcy, Bowe, ROG, TOL, Heaslip, Wallace, Muldoon, MOD, DOC, Buckley, Cronin, and Healy.

    Muldoon, MOD, and Cronin would have been the new/second string players in the team. Buckley was Man of the Match contender that day. It was effectively a first choice backline and they were rubbish.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭jimbomalley


    Leinster7 wrote: »
    As I've mentioned in another post this sort of question really just shows up the ignorance of those people asking it or stating it. Ireland didn't lose to Wales because we have smaller centres. Such nonsense and I urge you to tell those 'people' who are spouting this stuff to learn a bit more about the game of rugby. Conrad Smith was 6,1 if I recall, hardly a monster centre and easily NZ's best centre for years....

    What?? :eek: is he shrinking?:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,976 ✭✭✭profitius


    Ok, so if we assume that the answer is no, we can't compete with big centres, what do we do then? It's not like D'Arcy, Earls, McFadden are being picked at the expense of a couple of strapping 17 stone monsters, we have to adapt our play to what we have and go from there.

    Play to their strengths. Firstly though its up to the coach to have a gameplan that plays to the strengths of the players. Ireland looked good when they held onto possession and attacked the Welsh.

    Big players have weaknesses. They're slower to turn and would struggle to match the workrate of smaller players. For example Vicent Clerc seems to pop up all the time to score for France against us. With a higher workrate it means a team can look like they've more players on the pitch.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    We've had small centers for the best part of a decade and its only now that their size is becoming an issue, funny that.

    Problem isnt small centers but that at the moment we've average test centers who are made to look worse by playing in a side that has no idea what its trying to achieve.

    Center is just an area where we are weak at the minute and will be for a few years yet IMO, its only natural after having the same center partnership for 7 years and never looking to develop viable alternatives for a rainy day.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Exactly, we can't play the way we did against Wales again. We were far too slow. If you give a defence time to get set, it will get set. We did this repeatedly in the game.
    I could not believe how deep we lined up in defence and how slow we were to get out of the blocks when the Welsh swung it wide. It was total suicide. Was this some kind of bizarre new tactic ? it was insane.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Piliger wrote: »
    I could not believe how deep we lined up in defence and how slow we were to get out of the blocks when the Welsh swung it wide. It was total suicide. Was this some kind of bizarre new tactic ? it was insane.

    It wasn't according to the players. They were just poor in their line speed and their attacking of the carrier. It was moments like those last 5 minutes where you really saw the value of BOD. He would have stepped up and slammed the door shut in those closing minutes with a big hit. Similar scenarios in the Australia game when he flung himself in with one shoulder in the closing seconds or against S.A. in 2009 when he absolutely buried Kirchner on our own 22 with the last play to kill the move. We just don't have anyone in the back line that can make a play like that when he's gone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    GerM wrote: »
    We just don't have anyone in the back line that can make a play like that when he's gone.

    Total brains and total balls. Legend.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    Benny Cake wrote: »
    They play different positions but if it was a straight choice, I'd have Smith over Nonu every time.

    Smith and Nonu have complimentary talents. Having somebody like Nonu beside him makes Smith's job a lot easier. And neither of them looked comfortable against Rougerie in the RWC final, esp. in the second half.

    We should at least agree that being heavier is an advantage in rugby, other factors being equal. Very few BOD-sized players can compensate for their small size as well he has.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    i dont think the size of the centre is critical, what's more important is their ability to pass and offload and even more imporatant is the presence of a game plan to utilise the skill sets of each player to the benefit of the team and to play the best players in their best positions.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    For me, the effectiveness of centres is predicated on the amount of room and time they have on the ball.

    Playing against Wales, our centres were getting the ball (when they got it) in too much traffic to be effective. The Welsh centres otoh were getting so much time and space that they could run at us at will and invariably make good gainline advantage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭siltirocker


    Piliger wrote: »
    I don't know who said this was a silly topic. It is a critical topic in the current development of the game. If size becomes decisive then it changes one whole area of the game.

    'Huge', however, is not needed. But what is needed are centres who can consistently tackle big guys! And right now we don't have them. McFadden, O'Malley, Wallace cannot tackle big guys. They have shown that consistently. D'Arcy can and O'Driscoll can.

    D'Arcy and O'Driscoll also developed a double teaming strategy that they honed to perfection. That allowed them to seal off the midfield no matter who the opposition were.

    He may be battered to mince meat after (hence the nick name) but his best performances for Ireland in my memory have been for defence against Nonu & Jauzion.

    Wallace is great is defence for such a small man IMO. And really gets fcuk all respect from us on these boards.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Piliger wrote: »
    I don't know who said this was a silly topic. It is a critical topic in the current development of the game. If size becomes decisive then it changes one whole area of the game.

    'Huge', however, is not needed. But what is needed are centres who can consistently tackle big guys! And right now we don't have them. McFadden, O'Malley, Wallace cannot tackle big guys. They have shown that consistently. D'Arcy can and O'Driscoll can.

    D'Arcy and O'Driscoll also developed a double teaming strategy that they honed to perfection. That allowed them to seal off the midfield no matter who the opposition were.

    He may be battered to mince meat after (hence the nick name) but his best performances for Ireland in my memory have been for defence against Nonu & Jauzion.

    Wallace is great is defence for such a small man IMO. And really gets fcuk all respect from us on these boards.
    People just assume he can't tackle because he's small. Those people are just completely wrong. Some people have a bit of a problem with Wallace, although I suppose its understandable that they might develop a grudge against him because of the silly managerial obsession with using him at 10, which even McLoughlin woupdnt do. He's a great defender at 12 and is a great playmaker, I'd personally have him ahead of DArcy.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Beckett Uptight Quid


    The Wallace flak amounts from his seemingly incredible ability to pick up "bench caps", i.e spending 80 minutes of an international on the bench. We must remember that this is no fault of his own whatsoever.

    Wallace should only ever start, or not be involved, same as D'Arcy, he's simply not a bench option.

    I don't understand people questioning the guys defence, his flakiness, (if ever apparent), was in poor decision making going forward. He's an incredibly solid defender!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    The Wallace flak amounts from his seemingly incredible ability to pick up "bench caps", i.e spending 80 minutes of an international on the bench. We must remember that this is no fault of his own whatsoever.

    Wallace should only ever start, or not be involved, same as D'Arcy, he's simply not a bench option.

    I don't understand people questioning the guys defence, his flakiness, (if ever apparent), was in poor decision making going forward. He's an incredibly solid defender!

    All of the above is correct. However, the real reason Wallace is not rated by most people here is that he plays for Ulster and most rugby fans don't bother watching their games.


  • Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭cork exile in london


    As a race i believe we are not generally as big as other nations like england. hence our low number of props and for yrs relying on poc and doc as our locks with only cullen coming close to challenging them. look at the scots they have been poor for yrs but they have a serious amount of huge forwards. people will dissagree but i live in uk and i do believe genetics has a little bit to do with this.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Irish people are not genetically much different from English people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Reloc8


    Good small players will have their problems against good big players especially against good big fast players.

    Be that as it may, the problems I've seen in the Ireland team have been :-

    1. In Defence.

    When our line speed is slow as against Wales we can be run through and over. Same goes for every team who is not generating intensity in defence. Given good line speed and commitment from the available players this should not however be a problem. Its probably been said but teams like Leinster don't have monsters at 12 and 13 and yet maintain a miserly defence against top teams.

    2. In Attack

    Smaller men get wrapped up easier and if they do the recycle will often take longer allowing a defence to reset after a line bust. This can be addressed with good strength and technique in ball presentation, or, looking to offload in or prior to contact. Again, big men will usually find it easier to get their hands free in close contact but this is a technique and attitude thing. Its also a matter of having players running good support lines.

    What you can't do is expect smaller men to truck it up and continually make significant attacking yards in heavy contact. This shouldn't be a huge problem for Ireland because we do have powerful ball carriers sprinkled throughout the team and in terms of strike runners in the back line neither Tommy Bowe or Rob Kearney lacks physical size. Sexton is also a good size for his position.

    What I have found most frustrating of late is the dearth of attacking play and inability or unwillingness to play for offloads.

    While I found very difficult to take against Wales the lack of speed and intensity in defence - we stood right off and let their power runners come at us, giving up yardage easily time after time - that would in fairness appear to be a recent 'thing' or, hopefully, an isolated bad performance.

    The lack of incisive attacking play is much more worrying. Everything seems to hinge on Ferris or SOB demolishing whoever tries to tackle them, or we kick the ball. There is little effort to play deception from first phase (aside from the now telegraphed Sexton loop) and little evidence of good support lines and offloading in broken play. We also have a weakness in our passing in midfield.

    Sexton can hit a long skip pass - how many others of our backs can we say that of. It makes us much easier to mark - line up on the power runners and double team them, safe in the knowledge that we are laboured going wide.

    The problems in attack are not down to size issues in the centres.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭WeeBushy


    As a race i believe we are not generally as big as other nations like england. hence our low number of props and for yrs relying on poc and doc as our locks with only cullen coming close to challenging them. look at the scots they have been poor for yrs but they have a serious amount of huge forwards. people will dissagree but i live in uk and i do believe genetics has a little bit to do with this.

    Our current understanding of genetics would disagree with you as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    The biggest disadvantage that the leinster centers will get from their height is how awkward theyll look celebrating with Toner after the hundreds of tries theyll score.


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