Can Ireland play good attacking rugby in the future without huge centres?

peterako

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The biggest disadvantage that the leinster centers will get from their height is how awkward theyll look celebrating with Toner after the hundreds of tries theyll score.

Just so long as they manage it with more dignity than Boss did a few weeks ago...

dtpc191991

Based on what I've read here the answer is exactly as i initially thought, the problem doesn't like in the size of our centres but in the way we utilise them. The problem lies in the gameplan, that responsibilty lies with the coaches. The way to solve this is to implement a proper rush style, defence plan that doesn't rely on BOD and to get a backs coach that will get our centres offloading to our strike runners and get our strike runners taken those offloads on good support lines.

dtpc191991

Something alot like this would be nice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPXlXeQ7vCU

CatFromHue

dtpc191991 wrote: »

Something alot like this would be nice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPXlXeQ7vCU

The Aussie centre's that day were Mortlock, 6'3" and 16st 7lb, and Lote Tuqiri, 6' 3" 16st. Their wingers were Mark Gerrard, 6' 4" and 16st.

wp_rathead

cork exile in london wrote: »

As a race i believe we are not generally as big as other nations like england. hence our low number of props and for yrs relying on poc and doc as our locks with only cullen coming close to challenging them. look at the scots they have been poor for yrs but they have a serious amount of huge forwards. people will dissagree but i live in uk and i do believe genetics has a little bit to do with this.

dtpc191991

CatFromHue wrote: »

The Aussie centre's that day were Mortlock, 6'3" and 16st 7lb, and Lote Tuqiri, 6' 3" 16st. Their wingers were Mark Gerrard, 6' 4" and 16st.

Exactly and we handled that with much smaller backs save Horgan, because we had a decent attacking gameplan.

Leinster7

rrpc wrote: »

For me, the effectiveness of centres is predicated on the amount of room and time they have on the ball.

Playing against Wales, our centres were getting the ball (when they got it) in too much traffic to be effective. The Welsh centres otoh were getting so much time and space that they could run at us at will and invariably make good gainline advantage.

This is an entirely 'valid' statement and an accurate one. In possession, the breakdown work is as equally important as in defence. This is the main area where Ireland lost the game to Wales. If you watch closely, there is a distinct difference to how the 2nd rows and back row play for Munster and Leinster as to how Kidney has them playing. After a few phases in attack or defence the Irish breakdown seems to go quite awry. Just watch vs Italy this weekend guys, after 3 or so phases of possession how 'loose' things become and how ragged the running lines and decisions of the back 5 players become. POC eg. out of position slowing down the attack by taking ball on as first receiver when there is no gap or inside space or intention to offload inside or out, breaking a tackle etc..(This happens too much). Also look at the running lines of O'Brien in defence. How little or if ever he gets in the opposite 10s face and the lines taken to the breakdown.

Many comment on how Ireland have not settled on a style since the 09 GS. This has much to do with how we approach the breakdown post 1st/2nd phase imo. Also playing 2 natural sixes in the back-row really doesn't help either.

Hagz

I wonder how long it will take for the PlanetRugby article to surface on this thread.. .

cork exile in london

WeeBushy wrote: »

Our current understanding of genetics would disagree with you as well.

how? English people descended from danish and german genes. both tall and ireland is an island that has little mixing of foreign folk. On wicklepedia it does a good piece on this. Its just my opinion and i have seen it first hand in uk for yrs.The average height of males in ireland is estimated at 5 9" and england is 5 11" god only knows where they get figures from but there is a wee bit of truth in there theory re genetic mixes.

we do produce a few good ones like shaggy on the wing though. Maybe a few polish will come on board soon

irishbucsfan

cork exile in london wrote: »

WeeBushy wrote: »

Our current understanding of genetics would disagree with you as well.

how? English people descended from danish and german genes. both tall and ireland is an island that has little mixing of foreign folk. On wicklepedia it does a good piece on this. Its just my opinion and i have seen it first hand in uk for yrs.The average height of males in ireland is estimated at 5 9" and england is 5 11" god only knows where they get figures from but there is a wee bit of truth in there theory re genetic mixes.

we do produce a few good ones like shaggy on the wing though. Maybe a few polish will come on board soon

I live and play in London and don't see it at all to be honest. If they are bigger it doesnt show too much.

cork exile in london

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I live and play in London and don't see it at all to be honest. If they are bigger it doesnt show too much.

we will always struggle to have strenght in depth against france or england due to populations anyhow. also you have the fact that half of the english team is foreign now to.

We just need to change our defensive line so we dont get exposed like versus wales but i can see it happening again against france or england. Its going be hard without bod to continually defend against big centres with our current options. Maybe fitzgerald will be back and put in at centre with d'arcy.

cork exile in london

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0221/1224312115246.html

Fishooks12

cork exile in london wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0221/1224312115246.html

That's all highly subjective research and can be attributed to a number of things like performance, coincidence and luck

RoundBox11

cork exile in london wrote: »

how? English people descended from danish and german genes. both tall and ireland is an island that has little mixing of foreign folk. On wicklepedia it does a good piece on this. Its just my opinion and i have seen it first hand in uk for yrs.The average height of males in ireland is estimated at 5 9" and england is 5 11" god only knows where they get figures from but there is a wee bit of truth in there theory re genetic mixes.

we do produce a few good ones like shaggy on the wing though. Maybe a few polish will come on board soon

I'm studying genetics in college atm and as far as i know there wouldnt be much difference in terms of size between England and us. Also given that more than half the irish population has Danish, French (Norman), English and German blood in them there would be so much genetic variation in Ireland and England I can't see any reason why they'd be genetically "bigger than us".

I think Tony Buckley (heaviest european international), Devin Toner (tallest european international) and the Bull are proof enough

profitius

cork exile in london wrote: »

how? English people descended from danish and german genes. both tall and ireland is an island that has little mixing of foreign folk. On wicklepedia it does a good piece on this. Its just my opinion and i have seen it first hand in uk for yrs.The average height of males in ireland is estimated at 5 9" and england is 5 11" god only knows where they get figures from but there is a wee bit of truth in there theory re genetic mixes.

we do produce a few good ones like shaggy on the wing though. Maybe a few polish will come on board soon

Thats nonsense.

I'm sure its not the first time you brought up the small Irish topic. You're talking about genetics and the irony is the topic arose because of the massive Welsh backline (bigger than the English) and they're a Celtic country.

My girlfriend is fully German and considers me (6ft 1) as being tall. She also said the younger generation of Germans are getting taller, its the same here in Ireland. Any time I was in Germany I didn't notice any difference to Irish height and I've mostly been in the North, in Hamburg too.

The Jaw

Maybe a questions that needs to be asked is about the physical hardship the smaller centres need to put themselves through. D'Arcy and BOD are viewed worldwide as a great defensive partnership and they are.( Indeed EOS and DK have said that they dont necessary feel that Ireland need a groundhog No. 7 because of what these guys add).
But after 12ish years of playing like No.7's when you dont have build for it, it will surely slow you down a bit. It is all milli seconds in top level rugby. Whilst they might not miss overt tackles, they might be a socond away from the heart of the tackle

Ardillaun

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I live and play in London and don't see it at all to be honest. If they are bigger it doesnt show too much.

The English pack is bigger because they have far more people to choose from, not because English people are that much bigger than we are. They certainly are not two inches taller. The Dutch are taller, actually the tallest people in the world now. But genetics does seem to be a factor with the South Pacific nations. They are more muscular than we are. American Samoa is also over-represented in American Football.

desertcircus

cork exile in london wrote: »

how? English people descended from danish and german genes. both tall and ireland is an island that has little mixing of foreign folk. On wicklepedia it does a good piece on this. Its just my opinion and i have seen it first hand in uk for yrs.The average height of males in ireland is estimated at 5 9" and england is 5 11" god only knows where they get figures from but there is a wee bit of truth in there theory re genetic mixes.

we do produce a few good ones like shaggy on the wing though. Maybe a few polish will come on board soon

This is just way off. Even if it's not outright wrong, an average height of five feet nine inches for Ireland and five feet eleven inches for England could be indicative of any number of things - increased levels of child poverty and malnutrition, higher levels of smoking while pregnant, a difference in diet in the general population - that may not be replicated in the cohort of the population which plays rugby. And even if it still holds true for rugby players, the high level of deviation from the mean - some people will be far taller, some will be far shorter - means that the total proportion of players that end up really, really big isn't wildly off the proportion in England. And even if THAT is the case, and we have fewer huge players, the attention and training they'll get as obvious future provincial and national players may be so much more than a randomly selected really big bloke in England, who won't get much serious attention until he proves he's ahead of all the other huge candidates for a jersey.

If there is a cause for our shorter-than-average backline, it may be the school system - a six-foot-three seventeen-year-old, no matter how speedy and agile, will be stuck into the second row by most school coaches, because they need the big guys to play as forwards or else the school will lose every game. If there are a hundred boys in senior cycle, and three of them are six-three, they're going to be trained as locks. If three of them are six-one and fast, they'll probably be sent to the backrow. Unless a school has the players to spare, the big guys go to the forwards, in a way that might not necessarily happen in other countries, where the club system opens up the pool of available players for coaches.

jacothelad

cork exile in london wrote: »

how? English people descended from danish and german genes. both tall and ireland is an island that has little mixing of foreign folk. On wicklepedia it does a good piece on this. Its just my opinion and i have seen it first hand in uk for yrs.The average height of males in ireland is estimated at 5 9" and england is 5 11" god only knows where they get figures from but there is a wee bit of truth in there theory re genetic mixes.

we do produce a few good ones like shaggy on the wing though. Maybe a few polish will come on board soon

In a massive recently published genetic investigation it was discovered that 95% of the population in England had Celtic genes, exactly the same as in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Less than 5% of the population showed Saxon heritage.

Also.


"Not every European dimension has been harmonised in Brussels yet. According to the Department for Trade and Industry, the average Briton stands head, shoulders, girth and bottoms above their continental partners. The figures come in a new edition of the department's handbook of anthropometric and strength measurements, compiled by ergonomists at the University of Nottingham to help manufacturers design products to fit people's shape.
The volume provides 294 measurements ranging from the distance between the inner corners of the eyes to the length of the leg between the crease below the buttock to the crease at the back of the knee.
It has discovered that the average British man is 36 millimetres (1 inches) taller than his French counterpart.
The mean height of UK citizens is 1,755.1mm (5ft 9in). Among European men only the Dutch are taller, averaging 1,795mm and with a clear height advantage over the US men's average of 1,760.4.
The average British woman is 1,620mm tall (just under 5ft 4in), compared with 1,604mm for her French counterpart, 1,610mm for the Italians and 1,619mm for the Germans. Swedish women average 1,640mm, Dutch 1,650mm and Americans 1,626.7mm
More disturbingly, British men and women are heavier than all the other nationalities except the Americans, averaging 79.75 kilos for British men and 66.7 for women."

profitius

jacothelad wrote: »

In a massive recently published genetic investigation it was discovered that 95% of the population in England had Celtic genes, exactly the same as in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Less than 5% of the population showed Saxon heritage.

Also.


"Not every European dimension has been harmonised in Brussels yet. According to the Department for Trade and Industry, the average Briton stands head, shoulders, girth and bottoms above their continental partners. The figures come in a new edition of the department's handbook of anthropometric and strength measurements, compiled by ergonomists at the University of Nottingham to help manufacturers design products to fit people's shape.
The volume provides 294 measurements ranging from the distance between the inner corners of the eyes to the length of the leg between the crease below the buttock to the crease at the back of the knee.
It has discovered that the average British man is 36 millimetres (1 inches) taller than his French counterpart.
The mean height of UK citizens is 1,755.1mm (5ft 9in). Among European men only the Dutch are taller, averaging 1,795mm and with a clear height advantage over the US men's average of 1,760.4.
The average British woman is 1,620mm tall (just under 5ft 4in), compared with 1,604mm for her French counterpart, 1,610mm for the Italians and 1,619mm for the Germans. Swedish women average 1,640mm, Dutch 1,650mm and Americans 1,626.7mm
More disturbingly, British men and women are heavier than all the other nationalities except the Americans, averaging 79.75 kilos for British men and 66.7 for women."

I read before that people in Western Europe have a heavier build than most Europeans and more prone to getting fat. Thats better for rugby, Cork exile. Irish olympians used to do very well in strength competitions and former olympian Ray(?) Tracey was talking about it on the radio before and said we should concentrate on strength sports instead of running.

In terms of running speed we're not very fast over the 100m but fast enough over short distances ie BOD. Zebo is the fastest player in the country at the moment I would imagine.

This topic pops up every so often.

RoundBox11

Speaking of big Irish centres...... Has anyone seen much of this lad CHRIS FARREL? He's playing for the U20's and he's still 18.

He's a centre and right now he's 6' 5" and 16stone 3. He could be still growing and will put on more weight surely. If he has talent he could be the first big irish centre in a while

profitius

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Speaking of big Irish centres...... Has anyone seen much of this lad CHRIS FARREL? He's playing for the U20's and he's still 18.

He's a centre and right now he's 6' 5" and 16stone 3. He could be still growing and will put on more weight surely. If he has talent he could be the first big irish centre in a while

Yeah we've been mentioning him a bit. The good thing about him is he is not a basher. He can do that but he has an offloading game and looks a decent passer of the ball which are vital IMO. Also he has a fair amount of pace. The future looks good for him.

Speaking of big centers its a shame Eamonn Sheridan is always injured for Leinster. I've never seen him play.

I think I'm Sheridan's kryptonite.

Every game ive ever been to that he's played in, he's shipped a big injury...

boynesider

Farrell is a great prospect, has pace and lovely hands.