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Why is sexism such a difficult topic?
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I don't understand the second paragraph. As for the first, without some statistics it's impossible to say one way or the other.
I provided you statistics from the CSO.
You made an assumption, and I kind of made an assumption, but the fact that there is such a disparity isn't explained by the fact that men are likely to be more senior in those positions.Only if they took unpaid maternity leave no?
I would say with the current unemployment figures that for the under 30s (including unemployed) that women are paid more on average more than men. It's not something I see as a problem with any system though, just bad luck in this case.
When there was a report published a few years ago it said women were paid on average just over 80% as much as men. It didn't take into account hours worked. Once it did it was over 90%. That still didn't account for the fact that few hours means more likely to be part-time and less overtime on average making the paygap tiny despite the fact that one would expect due to old practices for men to be higher.
It's easy to spin statistics.
No, it is even if they take paid maternity leave, IIRC. Gimme a couple of minutes--I'm trying to locate a source for that.
And no, women are not paid more on average than men.
And who's spinning statistics? Read the CSO report.The report shows that women’s income in 2009 was around 73% of men’s income. After adjusting for the longer hours worked by men, women’s hourly earnings were around 94% of men’s
It's got a bit to do with the professions of each gender but that's problematic as it still splits the genders into "male" and "female" job roles.0 -
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Women and men do have equal rights?
Regarding slavery, I think it's the fact that the historical angle clouds the debate — we're in a society were women are enfranchised, can stand for election & enjoy the same rights as men. While there may still need to be attitudinal change, a focus on historical guilt angle makes men more likely to dismiss the topic as, as you say, this is completely out of their hands.
You don't care if men feel guilty or not — fine. So what are the aims of the feminism campaign? Presumably, since women have equal rights, it's about changing attitudes & gender stereotypes. This involves engaging men in the discussion, since it's their attitudes that you want to change.
So, yes there is the 'tone fallacy' & you don't care if men feel guilty, but when the one area that is now the most important to achieve change is in attitude, it becomes more important to engage men in the discussion.
You believe women and men are equal yes? So you see no need for feminism to still exist.
Yet, there have been many posters here, male and female, who feel that although things have improved enormously full equality has not yet been achieved. Some would also be concerned that these achievement having been made in a short period of time and will be rolled back unless we are vigilant.
In my life time - and I am merely middle aged not old- we have seen the end of the marriage ban, sex discrimination act, equal pay act, criminalisation of inter-marriage rape, rights extended to married women re shared ownership of the marital home, women, girls can no longer be shut away in Magdalene Laundries and contraception. The Ireland my granddaughter was born into is a very different Ireland to the one I was born into and my grandmother was born into an Ireland where women didn't even have the vote- feminism played a great role in forcing those changes. I want to make sure it never changes back.
People who feel like I do not only believe feminism is still needed but that it has a vital role to play in building and maintaining a more equatable society.0 -
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Honestly ? Dont like it dont read it
they didnt get closed cause they were boring .......... 0 -
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You said women are 3% more likely to be teachers, re-read your post. :pac:I provided you statistics from the CSO. You made an assumption, and I kind of made an assumption, but the fact that there is such a disparity isn't explained by the fact that men are likely to be more senior in those positions.
Find some statistics with how many teachers from each gender have been around long enough to be principals to prove your fact.
Again, 94%, higher than the 90 something I mentioned. That's per hour and I would've thought the fact that women work less hours than men would lead to a couple of conclusion; they are more likely to work part time (lower pay per hour) and less likely to work overtime (more pay per hour). That would explain quite a bit of that 6% if not all of it.No, it is even if they take paid maternity leave, IIRC. Gimme a couple of minutes--I'm trying to locate a source for that.
And no, women are not paid more on average than men.
And who's spinning statistics? Read the CSO report.
It's got a bit to do with the professions of each gender but that's problematic as it still splits the genders into "male" and "female" job roles.
I didn't say women were paid more than men, I said under 30. Male unemployment in that age group is massive and growth in unemployment for that age group for males has been massive in the last few hours.0 -
Honestly? It got boring a long time ago, causes nothing but angst either. Threads about sexism pop up constantly. Already 2 closed in the last 2 days.
But these sorts of threads have contributed massively to the culling of the "All Irish women are ugly" sorts of threads on AH, or "Irish women are bitches" ones. That to me is a positive thing. It's AH. This week it's sexism. Next week will be dole week. It's how the place operates.
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Well the last thread was doing ok until a few people kicked off, you being one of them!Roy Yummy Grenade wrote: »Honestly ? Dont like it dont read it they didnt get closed cause they were boring ..........0 -
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You said women are 3% more likely to be teachers, re-read your post. :pac:
Crap--sorry! Meant school managers. I'm tired.
Find some statistics with how many teachers from each gender have been around long enough to be principals to prove your fact.
That would take hours of research so, eh, no. It's school managers though. I made a mistake. Surely that would be a role governed on qualifications, not necessarily just seniority?Again, 94%, higher than the 90 something I mentioned. That's per hour and I thought the fact that women work less hours than men, are more likely to work part time (lower pay per hour) and less likely to work overtime (more pay per hour would explain quite a bit of that 6% if not all of it.
No, that's after adjusting for longer working hours. When you take into account women working part-time roles, women earn 73% of what men do.I didn't say women were paid more than men, I said under 30. Male unemployment in that age group is massive and growth in unemployment for that age group for males has been massive in the last few hours.
There is a difference between men and women unemployed under 30:For the 20-24 age group, about a third of men and just over a fifth of women were unemployed in 2011
The gap gets smaller over that age, but it's a fair point.0 -
Well the last thread was doing ok until a few people kicked off, you bring one of them!Roy Yummy Grenade wrote: »Honestly ? Dont like it dont read it they didnt get closed cause they were boring ..........
Emm ok ??? i think i get what ur saying 0 -
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In my secondary school it went purely on seniority if the next teacher in line wanted it. Same filtered through for Year Head positions.That would take hours of research so, eh, no. It's school managers though. I made a mistake. Surely that would be a role governed on qualifications, not necessarily just seniority?
I haven't come across the link but as far as I remember the last time I read a CSO report on the matter they corrected for the number of hours worked but not the situation. Someone working fulltime will get paid more than someone parttime and someone working overtime will get more per hour than someone who doesn't work overtime.No, that's after adjusting for longer working hours. When you take into account women working part-time roles, women earn 73% of what men do.
And I have no problem with that, as it is the system is pretty much fair and at the moment women are making better advantage of it. I would argue the education system slightly favours females but nowhere near to the extent that it explains their superiority in average results.There is a difference between men and women unemployed under 30:
The gap gets smaller over that age, but it's a fair point.
I remember a few years ago the government was sponsoring a FAS scheme to get women into the construction industry because they were "underrepresented". Basically it involved giving them more money than men during the apprenticeship stage. I was against that and would be against anything similar to encourage men to become teachers.0 -
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Any luck?
Really? I've just read through a 36 page thread, I don't want to go back to the start of it again...Originally Posted by later12
Who here has said that the explicit goal of feminism is the promotion of gender equality without reference to sex?
I'll dig something out I guess.
No, and I think this is the basis of the misunderstanding.The difference to your animal example is that women's rights are defined in binary opposition to men's rights.
In promoting an improvement of women's condition in social, labour political and personal life, feminists are sometimes using deficiencies in women's respective positions with respect to men as a reference point to what is possible, and sometimes they are not using men as a reference point at all.
To continue with my equine example. A centre involved in the rehabilitation of racehorses might wish to promote the welfare of ex-racehorses to a level that is enjoyed by lovingly cared-for riding club ponies, but there is no inherent assumption that riding club ponies do not face welfare problems of their own in certain instances.
Not at all. And there is no reason why it should. Donkey enthusiasts such as those who volunteer for the donkey sanctuary tend to fully appreciate the fact that we all have our own affinities, usually based on one's own history and experience.hardbackwriter wrote: »Do you find that your weighted concern for horses brings you into confrontation with those from the donkey or even zebra welfare societies ?
Why does this matter? Because I feel that those who care for human welfare most appreciate the same thing. We must understand that it is impractical to expect that no human being will find the cause of particular individuals (the homeless/ travellers/ beaten men/ beaten women/ rape victims/ the abused/ single fathers/ single mothers/ men/ women) to be particularly endearing.
Millicent has already spelled out the basis of her feminism which I think some of us who call ourselves feminists find may dwarf the basis for our own feminism.
I admit I feel myself a bit of a sham calling myself a feminist compared to some of the women on this thread, but from my own experience as a man growing up in a predominantly female household, I saw the ways which my older sisters and my mother had to struggle in a way that would have seemed grotesque to us as boys. We all bring our own individual experiences to the table; these experiences define our identity. These experiences define our interests, our affinities and our worldview. They define what we can relate to.
I cannot much relate to the issue of fathers' rights, for example, but in my own small way I can relate to women who feel themselves inhibited by perceptions of their gender. That's a very personal thing. We all have our personal causes. It is unrealistic and incoherent to lump all of us, and our respective specialist interests, in together.
Male. Usually castrated. They tend to be the most forgotten, least apparently useful, most underdog, and most intriguing.also, do you mainly focus on female or male race horses0 -
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