Why is sexism such a difficult topic?

thebigbiffo · 16-02-2012 02:56PM

Dudess wrote: »

The woman who said Ireland has a rape culture is disgraceful - and doing a serious injustice to those who live in actual rape cultures like the Congo.

Definitely looks like SHE has issues with men.

she is exactly what's wrong with feminism. feminists tend to let crackpots like that silly bint spout that rubbish on their behalf and it does the proper cause no favours whatsoever.

jesus, imagine saying that the 'perfect' example of our 'rape culture' was a girl who dresses sexy being hit on. i swear i had a sudden urge to bomb the journal's offices for allowing such b'ollox on their site.

B0jangles · 16-02-2012 02:56PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

sorry but i have to take you up on this, it's one of these points trotted out by feminists as an example of how they are second grade citizens...and it's utter tripe!

women are seen as weaker (which, physically they are) than men and therefore make better targets for scumbags. EVERYBODY needs to watch themselves in public for a variety of different reasons and not one of them has to do with sexism - they all have to do with personal safety.

and dont get me started on this recent attempt by (the crazier side of) feminism to tell us now we have a 'rape culture' - i nearly chewed the screen off reading that utter, sexist (towards men) crap the journal lowered themselves to publish.

I have to disagree with you there, on both points. my point was not that both men and women are victims of assault, it's that women are brought up from childhood to expect that behaving in certain ways will make them more likely to be victims of assault, and therefore in some way partially responsible.

Also I don't think you understand what is meant by the term "rape culture", it doesn't actually mean that all men are being labelled as potential rapists you know.

(Also, did you see there how I managed to disagree with you without using terms like "trotted out" and "utter tripe"?)

Dudess · 16-02-2012 03:04PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

The woman who said Ireland has a rape culture is disgraceful - and doing a serious injustice to those who live in actual rape cultures like the Congo.

Definitely looks like SHE has issues with men.

she is exactly what's wrong with feminism. feminists tend to let crackpots like that silly bint spout that rubbish on their behalf and it does the proper cause no favours whatsoever.

jesus, imagine saying that the 'perfect' example of our 'rape culture' was a girl who dresses sexy being hit on. i swear i had a sudden urge to bomb the journal's offices for allowing such b'ollox on their site.

No, feminists in general aren't crackpots - we've been through that. But yes, a wildly inflammatory thing to say.

Seachmall · 16-02-2012 03:07PM

B0jangles wrote: »

I have to disagree with you there, on both points. my point was not that both men and women are victims of assault, it's that women are brought up from childhood to expect that behaving in certain ways will make them more likely to be victims of assault

Behaving in certain ways DOES make you a more likely target. This is true for both men and women but in different ways.

If anything the issue is why aren't parents warning their little boys about the dangers of the real world.

therefore in some way partially responsible.

Saying you should avoid certain situations is not the same as saying you are responsible if you find yourself in that situation.

I know to avoid a certain part of town at night but if I didn't and I ended up getting attacked very few would say I was even partially responsible for the assault.

It's all common sense.

thebigbiffo · 16-02-2012 03:08PM

B0jangles wrote: »

I have to disagree with you there, on both points. my point was not that both men and women are victims of assault, it's that women are brought up from childhood to expect that behaving in certain ways will make them more likely to be victims of assault, and therefore in some way partially responsible.

Also I don't think you understand what is meant by the term "rape culture", it doesn't actually mean that all men are being labelled as potential rapists you know.

(Also, did you see there how I managed to disagree with you without using terms like "trotted out" and "utter tripe"?)

FFS everybody (men included) has it drilled into them that 'behaving in a certain way' invites trouble. please explain to me how this is proof of an inherently sexist society? men tend to worry about their daughter more than their sons too you know – that’d be parental instinct now before you’re set off, not sexism – and this means that the short dress, the low cut top, the warning about spiked drinks and everything else is more intense.

Sorry but, this is all the same crap that’s brought up in discussions about sexism. None of your examples prove sexism, it proves the biological differences between the sexes and how bad people take advantage of perceived weaknesses.

and yes, I know what this new feminist idea of ‘rape culture’ is. how could you make assumptions as to my understanding of the term when I haven’t offered any indication of what that term implies?

thebigbiffo · 16-02-2012 03:11PM

Dudess wrote: »

No, feminists in general aren't crackpots - we've been through that. But yes, a wildly inflammatory thing to say.

relax dudess - i didn't say feminists in general were crackpots...i said that feminists shouldn't let crackpots speak on their behalf...which they unfortunately do at times. but then again, i suppose there's no centralised leadership for feminism really and any idiot can offer an opinion....it's just unfortunate that the idiots get exposure.

Eric Cartman · 16-02-2012 03:16PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

The woman who said Ireland has a rape culture is disgraceful - and doing a serious injustice to those who live in actual rape cultures like the Congo.

Definitely looks like SHE has issues with men.

she is exactly what's wrong with feminism. feminists tend to let crackpots like that silly bint spout that rubbish on their behalf and it does the proper cause no favours whatsoever.

jesus, imagine saying that the 'perfect' example of our 'rape culture' was a girl who dresses sexy being hit on. i swear i had a sudden urge to bomb the journal's offices for allowing such b'ollox on their site.

This is a large part of why im against the feminist movent . Standing up for equal rights and labeling yourself a feminist is in my book akin to being against immigration and joining the BNP , its a movement that buried underneath has some good intent but extremists bring it to an overbearing crackpot level. The crackpots will always be the loudest voice in the room so as to why anybody with moderate views would like to pidgeonhole themselves in under the banner that these nutters are the face of is beyond me

Eoin · 16-02-2012 03:18PM

hondasam wrote: »

The woman should get more maternity leave because she had the baby, her body needs to recover.
I do think men should be entitled to some paid paternity leave.

I wouldn't say paid paternity leave, just like maternity leave should not have to be paid by the employer. Just the same right to leave, along with the same legal protection that is currently given to women on maternity leave.

There are obviously the physical factors to consider, which I believe is why there's currently a mandatory 6 week maternity leave period surrounding the birth.

Some women might be able to return to work very soon after, or take much longer to recover.

I think there should simply be a choice for the parents to make.

I might just be focussing on one particular area here, but I really do think that the imbalance in the work place is partly caused by the benefits given to mothers, not just ingrained sexism.

Shared parental leave (not the type that currently exists) could benefit the father, the mother and the child.

Dudess · 16-02-2012 03:18PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

No, feminists in general aren't crackpots - we've been through that. But yes, a wildly inflammatory thing to say.

relax dudess - i didn't say feminists in general were crackpots...i said that feminists shouldn't let crackpots speak on their behalf...which they unfortunately do at times. but then again, i suppose there's no centralised leadership for feminism really and any idiot can offer an opinion....it's just unfortunate that the idiots get exposure.

I'm "relaxed", can't see how I was being unrelaxed.

Fair enough.

Dudess · 16-02-2012 03:23PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

The woman who said Ireland has a rape culture is disgraceful - and doing a serious injustice to those who live in actual rape cultures like the Congo.

Definitely looks like SHE has issues with men.

she is exactly what's wrong with feminism. feminists tend to let crackpots like that silly bint spout that rubbish on their behalf and it does the proper cause no favours whatsoever.

jesus, imagine saying that the 'perfect' example of our 'rape culture' was a girl who dresses sexy being hit on. i swear i had a sudden urge to bomb the journal's offices for allowing such b'ollox on their site.

This is a large part of why im against the feminist movent . Standing up for equal rights and labeling yourself a feminist is in my book akin to being against immigration and joining the BNP , its a movement that buried underneath has some good intent but extremists bring it to an overbearing crackpot level. The crackpots will always be the loudest voice in the room so as to why anybody with moderate views would like to pidgeonhole themselves in under the banner that these nutters are the face of is beyond me

As nutty as "Women are gold-diggers", "fuk bitches and forget em" I guess.

Any chance of answering questions put to you?
And of course the extremists are going to be the most dominant ones to those who don't bother their holes scratching the surface and bearing in mind there are lots of variables. And of course those who WANT to believe the extremists are the dominant voice.

A Primal Nut · 16-02-2012 03:25PM

I think the reason some men call feminists men-haters is because if feels like men are blamed for everything, even when women make the choices affecting their lives.

For example, as an engineer, I see that women are always being encouraged to enter the profession, get more assistance and are equal with regards to opportunites, pay, etc. Many managers will openly admit to giving preference to women when hiring in order to address the gender imbalance.

But of course there is a shortage of women engineers so men/society get blamed when in reality it's women themselves who make their own decisions about what they want to do with their career. Maybe it's the way they are brought up, maybe it's do with their own interests, but it's certainly not the result of discrimination like we are always led to believe. And of course when the media constantly suggests discrimination, it implies that the lack of female engineers is somehow men's fault.

It's just one example of when men are blamed by the media for decisions women make (in this case, what they decide to put down on their CAO form).

I'm not saying all feminists think like this or even most of them, but I suppose it's an example of where the man-hating idea comes from.

On the other hand, I agree it's a disgrace that women are blamed for what they wear or walking the streets at night. Yes, give them advice but everyone has to walk home alone even at night from time to time and rapists should be punished much more harshly and its' crazy to blame the girl. That said, very few men are rapists or support it, so I don't think it's an example of rampant discrimination.

Morag · 16-02-2012 03:26PM

hondasam wrote: »

You get this time whether you breastfeed or not. Majority of children bond with the mother first.
what physical effects does a baby have on a man?

http://www.whattoexpect.com/blogs/daddydazemycoworkersweardiapers/men-and-oxytocin-creating-an-attachment-to-nurture-your-newborn-baby

January 21, 2011
Men And Oxytocin, Creating An "Attachment" To Nurture Your Newborn Baby
Every time you cuddle with your partner and skin-to-skin contact is created, a powerful chemical known as "Oxytocin" is released. Often referred to as the "attachment chemical" or "bonding chemical" Oxytocin is an important relationship building chemical. When a baby is first born you will often see the doctor, midwife or doula place the newborn child on the mothers bare chest, since skin on skin contact allows that initial connection to occur naturally. What you don't often see is the same happening between the father and child, even though that father, baby connection has been proven to be an important aspect when first trying to nurture your newborn baby.

In the August 15, 2010 journal Biological Psychiatry, Ruth Feldman explains that during times of distress a baby will cling to their mother, while bursts of energy and playfulness often leads them to cling to their fathers. The reason behind the different mother and father scenarios according to Feldman occur because, "Fathers are the natural playmates and mothers the natural stress busters for kids. This is directly reflected in the blood Oxytocin levels corresponding to each activity performed by both parents."

So how do dad's receive the type of bonding needed to create the parenting relationship with their children? The easiest answer is to simply maintain high Oxytocin levels with your child. This relationship can be started at child birth in the same way a mother first interacts with their newborn child, by placing the baby on the fathers bare chest after the mother and baby have bonded.

After initial contact, regular skin-to-skin contact between baby and father is important. This contact can be as simple as your baby's hand when they grab for their daddy or by laying them on your bare chest when cuddling. Simply playing with your child on a daily basis is also a great way to interact with your child while helping to strengthen the Oxytocin bond between baby and daddy.

The key is to make sure the chemical bond is constantly nurtured, this doesn't mean you have to coddle your baby, just that you should ensure when you are nurturing them that skin-to-skin contact is made whenever possible.

Here's an interesting fact about Oxytocin. In non-industrialized countries, where mothers tend to carry their children with them throughout the day and night, babies cry far less frequently than babies in industrialized countries where they are not, in most cases, held and nurtured constantly throughout the day. A sign of Oxytocin's importance? Many scientists seem to think so.

Oxytocin is a proven bonding chemical and one that should not be overlooked. In most cases, you are providing a bond to your child without even realizing you are doing it, however by paying a bit more attention to how you interact can help you ensure that bond between father and child is helped along at every possible turn.

In closing, men and Oxytocin can play as important a relationship in a babies development as oxytocin baby receives from their mom.

Seachmall · 16-02-2012 03:29PM

Dudess wrote: »

"Women are gold-diggers" ... "fuk bitches and forget em"

I believe the correct phrase is "Fuck Bitches, Get Money".

Your knowledge of misogynistic lingo leaves a lot to be desired, Dudess.

:pac:

Morag · 16-02-2012 03:30PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Well Ive always had a belief that becoming a feminist usually stems from bad incidents in your upbringing , In my experience people who describe themselves as feminists usually have a subconscious dislike of all men or a specific man in their lives , usually stemming from :

1) being a lesbian
2) divorce
3) being sexually abused
4) bullying by boys in school
5) having an authoritarian male in your upbringing who you resent

Now millicent , im sorry that your upbringing featured some of my checklist items but i just wanted to point out that the reasons most people become feminists can usually be pointed back to one or more of these things.

None of the above applies to me and I am still a feminist.

Morag · 16-02-2012 03:32PM

Dudess wrote: »

The woman who said Ireland has a rape culture is disgraceful - and doing a serious injustice to those who live in actual rape cultures like the Congo.

Definitely looks like SHE has issues with men.

You are missing the context it means that we have culture in which rapes are under reported, consent is not taught in our schools and we have victim blaming all of which means a culture in which rapists get away with it.

Dudess · 16-02-2012 03:35PM

Sharrow wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

The woman who said Ireland has a rape culture is disgraceful - and doing a serious injustice to those who live in actual rape cultures like the Congo.

Definitely looks like SHE has issues with men.

You are missing the context it means that we have culture in which rapes are under reported, consent is not taught in our schools and we have victim blaming all of which means a culture in which rapists get away with it.

That can be expressed without resorting to such provocative language though.

The King of Moo · 16-02-2012 03:35PM

A Primal Nut wrote: »

I think the reason some men call feminists men-haters is because if feels like men are blamed for everything, even when women make the choices affecting their lives.

For example, as an engineer, I see that women are always being encouraged to enter the profession, get more assistance and are equal with regards to opportunites, pay, etc. Many managers will openly admit to giving preference to women when hiring in order to address the gender imbalance.

But of course there is a shortage of women engineers so men/society get blamed when in reality it's women themselves who make their own decisions about what they want to do with their career. Maybe it's the way they are brought up, maybe it's do with their own interests, but it's certainly not the result of discrimination like we are always led to believe. And of course when the media constantly suggests discrimination, it implies that the lack of female engineers is somehow men's fault.

It's just one example of when men are blamed by the media for decisions women make (in this case, what they decide to put down on their CAO form).

I'm not saying all feminists think like this or even most of them, but I suppose it's an example of where the man-hating idea comes from.

On the other hand, I agree it's a disgrace that women are blamed for what they wear or walking the streets at night. Yes, give them advice but everyone has to walk home alone even at night from time to time and rapists should be punished much more harshly and its' crazy to blame the girl. That said, very few men are rapists or support it, so I don't think it's an example of rampant discrimination.

You don't need to have specific cases of discrimination to have institutional sexism though.

You could go farther back and look at childhood when professions such as engineering are coded as masculine and thus when women grow up having been fed such ideas, they're less likely to go for professions like that, despite attempts to get more women working in the area.

16-02-2012 03:37PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

You don't need to have specific cases of discrimination to have systematic sexism though.

You could go farther back and look at childhood when professions such as engineering are coded as masculine and thus when women grow up having been fed such ideas, they're less likely to go for professions like that, despite attempts to get more women working in the area.

http://meansjustifyingends.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/20100516.gif?w=600

smash · 16-02-2012 03:37PM

Sharrow wrote: »

You are missing the context it means that we have culture in which rapes are under reported, consent is not taught in our schools and we have victim blaming all of which means a culture in which rapists get away with it.

The meaning of consent comes with common knowledge. The same way in school they don't teach you not to molest children or not to steal stuff.

for what it's worth, I think it's pretty easy to miss the so called context because lets face it "Rape culture" as you explain it, is not the meaning of the phrase "rape culture".

B0jangles · 16-02-2012 03:40PM

Here's a link to a blog which does a pretty thorough job of explaining what is usually meant by the term "rape culture" fwiw

http://shakespearessister.blogspot....ulture-101.html

And here's a link to an academic study exploring why only about half of women who graduate as engineers go on to have long-term careers in the field

http://www.studyofwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Full-report-of-Women-in-Engineering.pdf

Morag · 16-02-2012 03:42PM

A Primal Nut wrote: »

I
It's just one example of when men are blamed by the media for decisions women make (in this case, what they decide to put down on their CAO form).

Well what about all the bits that come before a young woman puts down the codes for an engineering course on the CAO?

Has she been able to do the best subjects for this?
Was there even those subjected in her school?
(all girls schools often don't have them)
If she is in a mixed gender school and wanted to take up what are seen as
'boy' subjects, how much support did she get from parents/family, teachers and from her fellow pupils?
OR did she get constantly slagged and harassed until she dropped out of the class?

When she expresses the desire to be an engineer when she grew up or to have a career on engineering was she meet with encouragement or told no dear you'd be better of doing some more 'appropriate' or you'll never get a husband doing that sort of work.

Attitudes like the above still exists and often they are unexamined and unchallenged and the are often the reason there are not more young women going into those course or careers.

When I started first year of my engineering year there were 110 inf the class, 4 of us were female out of the 4 only two graduated and we had comments made from lecturers how we'd not get work and we were taking up a place that a man would need to provide for his family and a fat lot of good the qualification would do when we were at home having kids.

These days I could report the lecturers for saying that, but how many students will?

hardbackwriter · 16-02-2012 03:42PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

The woman who said Ireland has a rape culture is disgraceful - and doing a serious injustice to those who live in actual rape cultures like the Congo.

Definitely looks like SHE has issues with men.

she is exactly what's wrong with feminism. feminists tend to let crackpots like that silly bint spout that rubbish on their behalf and it does the proper cause no favours whatsoever.

jesus, imagine saying that the 'perfect' example of our 'rape culture' was a girl who dresses sexy being hit on. i swear i had a sudden urge to bomb the journal's offices for allowing such b'ollox on their site.

feminism is mainly the preserve of middle class western women , women in countries like the congo or the mid east are more concerned with basic human rights issues , I can't see concerns like toy stores labelling soldier outfits for boys or dolls in the girls section As ever being a big priority to women in those places

Seachmall · 16-02-2012 03:43PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

You could go farther back and look at childhood when professions such as engineering are coded as masculine and thus when women grow up having been fed such ideas, they're less likely to go for professions like that, despite attempts to get more women working in the area.

Then there's the chicken and the egg question.

Do boys play with engineering toys becuase there parents buy them or do their parents buy them because they play with them.

Same with dolls and girls.

Honestly, I think if there was a large market for engineering (or any other "boys toys") among girls the toy sellers would be all over them. Millions of dollars are spent every year researching toys and what-not. It'd be a huge market to just miss or skim over.

smash · 16-02-2012 03:43PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Here's a link to a blog which does a pretty thorough job of explaining what is usually meant by the term "rape culture" fwiw

Really, a blog is not what's needed. Some new terminology is what's needed.

Cedrus · 16-02-2012 03:44PM

I think sexism is a difficult topic because it is such a sweeping catch all area that universal concordance is actually impossible.

If it could be shown graphically it would be a huge Venn diagram with all of us sitting inside some circles but never in others, sometimes with our own gender, race, class, nation or sexuality but never with them all.
Something which appears to members of one group as equality or enablement (eg Childcare) is simply a taxation issue to others (eg young singles). The people who support for example abortion as a civil/feminist right cannot even see the circle with the people who see it as a moral wrong.

Feminism is expected/believed by some to encompass every issue which every woman may face (which it cannot) but it is weakened by its own vast scope and by constant sniping from unbelievers and believers alike.

Seachmall · 16-02-2012 03:45PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Here's a link to a blog which does a pretty thorough job of explaining what is usually meant by the term "rape culture" fwiw

I think the issue is with the term itself, not what it's supposed to describe.

It's an intentionally emotive term that doesn't accurately represent the culture's mind frame towards rape.

It's similar to the term "Pro-life". It fails to actually reflect their side of the discussion and implicitly undermines anyone who isn't "Pro-life".

Political Framing

krudler · 16-02-2012 03:47PM

hardbackwriter wrote: »

feminism is mainly the preserve of middle class western women , women in countries like the congo or the mid east are more concerned with basic human rights issues , I can't see concerns like toy stores labelling soldier outfits for boys or dolls in the girls section As ever being a big priority to women in those places

thats an interesting way of putting it, there's a world of difference between viewing a scantily clad woman on tv as offensive and having the right to voice your opinion, and then being told you cant work or drive because you're a woman and that your only role is to feed your man and make babies, thats a reality for a lot of women in other countries.

The King of Moo · 16-02-2012 03:50PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Then there's the chicken and the egg question.

Do boys play with engineering toys becuase there parents buy them or do their parents buy them because they play with them.

Same with dolls and girls.

Honestly, I think if there was a large market for engineering (or any other "boys toys") among girls the toy sellers would be all over them. Millions of dollars are spent every year researching toys and what-not. It'd be a huge market to just miss or skim over.

It is difficult to know for sure, but just going by the young kids of both genders I know, they like a mix of what would be considered traditionally masculine and feminine toys.
My nephew loves Batman and football and also pretending to cook and clean up, for example.

Thankfully more people do seem to be allowing their kids greater freedom in choosing their toys, but I still know lots of people who would freak out if their son picked up a doll.

Personally I don't think that all boys and girls gravitate towards different toys, though if a majority do, I don't think it's a big majority.

There might be a market for engineering toys for girls, but that would only become noticeable when enough parents are willing to try to give more of such toys to girls.
And though things have changed for the better, there still seems to be a lot of parents who buy gendered toys for their children, simply because that's the tradition.

I should also stress this is all from my own observations, some people might be more knowledgeable about the facts and theories behind such things.

Morag · 16-02-2012 03:52PM

Nice False Analogy you have going there.

Stop trying to use the fact that there are women who have it worse in other countries as a reason to try and paint women here and whinging, which is a way to try and shut women up and not let them talk about how our society and culture effect us.

If these discussions aren't allowed to happen then gendered attitudes and thinking will remain unchallenged and unexamined and things won't change.

Dudess · 16-02-2012 03:54PM

hardbackwriter wrote: »

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

The woman who said Ireland has a rape culture is disgraceful - and doing a serious injustice to those who live in actual rape cultures like the Congo.

Definitely looks like SHE has issues with men.

she is exactly what's wrong with feminism. feminists tend to let crackpots like that silly bint spout that rubbish on their behalf and it does the proper cause no favours whatsoever.

jesus, imagine saying that the 'perfect' example of our 'rape culture' was a girl who dresses sexy being hit on. i swear i had a sudden urge to bomb the journal's offices for allowing such b'ollox on their site.

feminism is mainly the preserve of middle class western women , women in countries like the congo or the mid east are more concerned with basic human rights issues , I can't see concerns like toy stores labelling soldier outfits for boys or dolls in the girls section As ever being a big priority to women in those places

Yep, I'd agree with a lot of that.

Why is sexism such a difficult topic?

Comments