I have no-one to vote for...

Lawrence1895 · 15-02-2012 04:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

We could do with a Pirate Party

Like them? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party_Germany

Anyway, why not voting for Sinn Fein? At least, nobody can blame them of f***ing up matters in Government

Nothingbetter2d · 15-02-2012 05:00PM

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Despite the harsh austerity the current government are heaping on the country Labour are still the least worst political party IMO. They have the only TD that claims zero expenses (Eamonn Maloney), are part of a European Parliament group the Socialists and Democrats that have IMO the best policies in the European Parliament (despite Labour not implementing any of them in government, they would likely form the most part of the next manifesto).

The other parties are absolutely awful IMO, Fine Gael were founded by fascists and racists. Fianna Fail have bankrupted the nation 3 times, Haughey, Ahern, need I say more. Sinn Fein have a bunch of ex murders as their TD's and are implementing austerity in Northern Ireland making their anti-austerity stance down here hypocritical. They are also not genuine, they claim they draw the average industrial wage but in fact claim more in expenses while taking the full TD's salary, as the OP said. Far left do the same as Sinn Fein with the 'average industrial wage' malarkey and have no concrete policies. Independents are a wasted vote.

It is a sad state of affairs when one votes for a party cause they are the least bad though IMO. I'll likely vote Labour in the next local elections.

labour also broke their own rules regarding pay caps while taking more money off the ordinary people to pay for these "special advisers"

Pride Fighter · 15-02-2012 05:06PM

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

labour also broke their own rules regarding pay caps while taking more money off the ordinary people to pay for these "special advisers"

True, so did FG. I'm not defending Labour cause they have made too many mistakes in government, but the alternatives are truly shocking.

Chuck Stone · 15-02-2012 05:08PM

I'm the same OP. I don't like any of the political parties and I'm suspicious of the motives of people who are attracted to politics.

Look at this check list to identify a sociopath. How many ticks does every politician anyone can think of get?

Glibness/superficial charm
Manipulative and conning
Grandiose sense of self
Pathological lying
Lack of remorse, shame or guilt
Shallow emotions
Incapacity for love
Need for stimulation
Callousness/lack of empathy
Poor behavioral controls/impulsive nature
Early behavior problems/juvenile delinquency
Irresponsibility/unreliability
Promiscuous sexual behavior/infidelity
Lack of realistic life plan/parasitic lifestyle
Criminal or entrepreneurial versatility
Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Narcissism, grandiosity (self-importance not based on achievements)
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

Scary?

Lawrence1895 · 15-02-2012 05:10PM

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Despite the harsh austerity the current government are heaping on the country Labour are still the least worst political party IMO. They have the only TD that claims zero expenses (Eamonn Maloney), are part of a European Parliament group the Socialists and Democrats that have IMO the best policies in the European Parliament (despite Labour not implementing any of them in government, they would likely form the most part of the next manifesto).

The other parties are absolutely awful IMO, Fine Gael were founded by fascists and racists. Fianna Fail have bankrupted the nation 3 times, Haughey, Ahern, need I say more. Sinn Fein have a bunch of ex murders as their TD's and are implementing austerity in Northern Ireland making their anti-austerity stance down here hypocritical. They are also not genuine, they claim they draw the average industrial wage but in fact claim more in expenses while taking the full TD's salary, as the OP said. Far left do the same as Sinn Fein with the 'average industrial wage' malarkey and have no concrete policies. Independents are a wasted vote.

It is a sad state of affairs when one votes for a party cause they are the least bad though IMO. I'll likely vote Labour in the next local elections.

Is there any solid link to support that statement? Thanks.

I'm asking, because most of those, who expressed racist views towards me, told me, they support FG...but strongly deny to be racist, or calling FG a party with a history linked to racism/fascism.

Bannasidhe · 15-02-2012 05:10PM

See what I mean - we are actually debating who is the least worst.

I are fed up of having a 'choice' between Slightly right muppet/slighty left muppet/ populist muppet/ centerest muppet or independent muppet.

Bannasidhe · 15-02-2012 05:13PM

Lars1916 wrote: »

Is there any solid link to support that statement? Thanks.

I'm asking, because most of those, who expressed racist views towards me, told me, they support FG...but strongly deny to be racist, or calling FG a party with a history linked to racism/fascism.

In July 1933 O Duffy became leader of the Army Comrades Association, which had been set up to protect Cumann na nGaedhael public meetings, which had up to that point been disrupted under the slogan "No Free Speech for Traitors" by IRA men freed by de Valera when he gained power. He immediately changed its name to the National Guard. O Duffy was an admirer of the Italian leader, Benito Mussolini, and his organisation adopted outward symbols of European fascism, such as the straight-arm Roman salute and the distinctive blue uniform. It wasn't long before they became known as the Blueshirts...
In September 1933 Cumann na nGaedhael, the Centre Party and the Blueshirts merged to form Fine Gael. O Duffy, though not a TD, became the first leader, with former President of the Executive Council, (prime minister) W.T. Cosgrave serving as parliamentary leader. The National Guard became the youth wing of the party. However, meetings were often broken up by scuffles with the IRA.

http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com/Fine_Gael/Eoin_O_Duffy.html

Pride Fighter · 15-02-2012 05:16PM

Lars1916 wrote: »

Is there any solid link to support that statement? Thanks.

I'm asking, because most of those, who expressed racist views towards me, told me, they support FG...but strongly deny to be racist, or calling FG a party with a history linked to racism/fascism.

Here is a recent example of their racism http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/sep/15/world.race

But it is well known that Fine Gael was founded when the Nation Centre Party, Cumann na nGaedheal and the Army Comrades Association merged in 1933. The Army Comrades Association became the Blueshirts, the equivalent of the brown and blackshirts on the continent and fought on the Fascist side in the Spanish Civil War.

15-02-2012 05:17PM

Lars1916 wrote: »

Like them? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party_Germany

Exactly. AFIK there was an attempt to set up one here a number of years ago but it never caught on. Several european countries have pirate parties now and I think some of them have seated members.

Fenian Army · 15-02-2012 05:24PM

Don't see the issue with SFs expenses if they are vouched and actually required... after all its expensive for the TDs from Donegal or cork or whatever to drive to and from dublin as well as getting places to stay overnight, and on the average wage they can't really afford to pay for that stuff themselves.

If they took home a huge wage as well as huge expenses I'd be angry, cause if they took the whole wage they would be well able to afford stuff and wouldn't need expenses.

Would be quite cynical myself about politicians. Why not put up what you are looking for in a political party? Only fools are happy with every aspect of a political party, these are robots that just spout the party line and can't think for themselves, bare that in mind, you can always try to effect change from withing a party, once you agree with its core principals.

Lawrence1895 · 15-02-2012 05:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Lars1916 wrote: »

Like them? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party_Germany

Exactly. AFIK there was an attempt to set up one here a number of years ago but it never caught on. Several european countries have pirate parties now and I think some of them have seated members.

They made it into the Local Parliament ('Senat') in Berlin last time out. Didn't hear of any more success stories in Germany though.

Pride Fighter · 15-02-2012 05:30PM

Fenian Army wrote: »

Don't see the issue with SFs expenses if they are vouched and actually required... after all its expensive for the TDs from Donegal or cork or whatever to drive to and from dublin as well as getting places to stay overnight, and on the average wage they can't really afford to pay for that stuff themselves.

If they took home a huge wage as well as huge expenses I'd be angry, cause if they took the whole wage they would be well able to afford stuff and wouldn't need expenses.

Would be quite cynical myself about politicians. Why not put up what you are looking for in a political party? Only fools are happy with every aspect of a political party, these are robots that just spout the party line and can't think for themselves, bare that in mind, you can always try to effect change from withing a party, once you agree with its core principals.

The bit in bold. They do take home the huge wages all TD's do. It is available under Freedom of Information. All TD's get the 92k wages and only one claims no expenses.

Sam Vimes · 15-02-2012 05:30PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

SF - I was looking at them, I was trying to really hard to overcome any prejudice I have towards them. But all they seem to do is spout anti-everything polemics without ever producing a viable alternative.
Then I see that statements such as http://pearsedoherty.blogspot.com/2009/09/my-expenses.html
but he claimed over 51k in expenses for 2011.

Now I don't want anyone to get the idea that I support anything that has ever been said or done by a member of Sinn Fein but I wouldn't let the fact that someone claimed 51K in expenses automatically turn you off them. Last year I claimed nearly 10K in expenses from my job because I spent that money on a business trip. I didn't just claim for 10K and put it in my pocket and neither did Doherty. I spent that money, i.e. they were an expense that I incurred in the course of doing my job, and I rightly claimed it back. I wouldn't care if I was on €1,000,000 a year, I would still have claimed that money back and anyone who said I should have used my own wages for it would have been told where to stick their suggestion

That's not to say that he spent the entire 51K on doing his job either mind you. The Dail expenses system is overly generous. The point is that just because he claimed 51K doesn't mean he's 51K better off or anywhere near it

Fenian Army · 15-02-2012 05:34PM

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The bit in bold. They do take home the huge wages all TD's do. It is available under Freedom of Information. All TD's get the 92k wages and only one claims no expenses.

They dont, they get the average wage into their pocket, they live off that, the rest goes into party funding and AFAIK is partly used for things like cross community projects in the north, as well as offices etc.

RussellTuring · 15-02-2012 05:35PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

See what I mean - we are actually debating who is the least worst.

I are fed up of having a 'choice' between Slightly right muppet/slighty left muppet/ populist muppet/ centerest muppet or independent muppet.

So why do you feel you have to vote for any? If someone told me to choose between two options that were equally bad, nothing but abstaining can really express your disapproval. If the people who get elected are allowed to abstain from voting, then you certainly can.

Bannasidhe · 15-02-2012 05:35PM

Fenian Army wrote: »

Don't see the issue with SFs expenses if they are vouched and actually required... after all its expensive for the TDs from Donegal or cork or whatever to drive to and from dublin as well as getting places to stay overnight, and on the average wage they can't really afford to pay for that stuff themselves.

If they took home a huge wage as well as huge expenses I'd be angry, cause if they took the whole wage they would be well able to afford stuff and wouldn't need expenses.

SF TDs draw down a salary of over 90k a year- they then donate that to their party which pays them the 'average industrial wage'. They then claim pretty much the same amount in expenses as FF/FG etc.

As for needing over 50k a year to travel from Cork to Dublin and stay overnight - where do you think Cork is? Next to New York? It's 70 odd euro return on the train FFS. 3 hours drive.

Where the hell are they staying when in Dublin for the 100 or so days the Dail sits every year?

Not to mention the fact the Dail is in recess for months over the summer, Easter and Xmas.

Over 50 grand - to travel up and down from Dublin for a max of about 4 months. Seriously?????

Sam Vimes · 15-02-2012 05:37PM

RussellTuring wrote: »

So why do you feel you have to vote for any? If someone told me to choose between two options that were equally bad, nothing but abstaining can really express your disapproval. If the people who get elected are allowed to abstain from voting, then you certainly can.

The problem is that if you don't choose, someone else will choose for you

Bannasidhe · 15-02-2012 05:37PM

RussellTuring wrote: »

So why do you feel you have to vote for any? If someone told me to choose between two options that were equally bad, nothing but abstaining can really express your disapproval. If the people who get elected are allowed to abstain from voting, then you certainly can.

I consider it my duty as a citizen to vote. Plus, not voting - where would that get us unless they held an election and nobody voted?

TwoShedsJackson · 15-02-2012 05:39PM

The only realistic option is a benevolent police state with me in charge. Vote for me, I'm great.

Nothingbetter2d · 15-02-2012 05:39PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I consider it my duty as a citizen to vote. Plus, not voting - where would that get us unless they held an election and nobody voted?

ALL Ballot papers need an option "None of the above" and if the "none of the above" option gets the most votes then all candidates are deemed disqualified

and a new set of election candidates must be selected. that would shake them all up.

Fenian Army · 15-02-2012 05:46PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

SF TDs draw down a salary of over 90k a year- they then donate that to their party which pays them the 'average industrial wage'. They then claim pretty much the same amount in expenses as FF/FG etc.

As for needing over 50k a year to travel from Cork to Dublin and stay overnight - where do you think Cork is? Next to New York? It's 70 odd euro return on the train FFS. 3 hours drive.

Where the hell are they staying when in Dublin for the 100 or so days the Dail sits every year?

Not to mention the fact the Dail is in recess for months over the summer, Easter and Xmas.

Over 50 grand - to travel up and down from Dublin for a max of about 4 months. Seriously?????

No need to attack or curse at me is there?

Perhaps you should send an email asking what the expenses actually go on, its more than just transport, they should reply, the shinners always reply to my angry rants

They live off the average wage, and if you were to believe in Sinn Féin and the overall aims/principals of the party I guess you would applaud the TDs, MPS, MLAs etc giving up the majority of their wage in an effort to spread the message. They would willingly vote to lower the wages to the average industrial wage, they do think it is too high, in the meantime I guess they believe that the party and people should benefit rather then throw the wages down the anglo black hole.

Looks like you haven't tried hard enough to overcome any prejudices given the anger in that post, I'm not even a SF member or supporter, think I gave my candidate the number two after falling for labours lies.

Anyway, best of luck finding someone to vote for

Why not put up your own core values and people can advise you based on that? I.e, conservative, liberal, pro gay rights, feminist, religious etc etc etc

Stiffler2 · 15-02-2012 05:52PM

I'm not going to bother voting anymore, they're all just the same shower of ba$tards anyway.

all corrupt all with the same policies and when they get into power all they care about is themselves

F**K em

Bannasidhe · 15-02-2012 05:57PM

Fenian Army wrote: »

No need to attack or curse at me is there?

Perhaps you should send an email asking what the expenses actually go on, its more than just transport, they should reply, the shinners always reply to my angry rants

They live off the average wage, and if you were to believe in Sinn Féin and the overall aims/principals of the party I guess you would applaud the TDs, MPS, MLAs etc giving up the majority of their wage in an effort to spread the message. They would willingly vote to lower the wages to the average industrial wage, they do think it is too high, in the meantime I guess they believe that the party and people should benefit rather then throw the wages down the anglo black hole.

Looks like you haven't tried hard enough to overcome any prejudices given the anger in that post, I'm not even a SF member or supporter, think I gave my candidate the number two after falling for labours lies.

Anyway, best of luck finding someone to vote for

Why not put up your own core values and people can advise you based on that? I.e, conservative, liberal, pro gay rights, feminist, religious etc etc etc

I wasn't swearing you honest. It was a FFS of utter frustration at the idea that one needs over 50k a year to travel from Cork/Donegal to Dublin and stay in Dublin for 3 nights for max four months a year .

My issue with SF, as I said in my OP, is reading high horse pronouncements such as

I have stated many times that it is my view that TD’s, Senators, Junior Ministers and Ministers are over paid and that their expenses are inflated. Both the Salary and the expenses should be cut substantially.

from Doherty and then seeing he was in the top range of expenses claimed for 2011.

RussellTuring · 15-02-2012 06:01PM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The problem is that if you don't choose, someone else will choose for you

Nobody gets an extra vote if you don't use yours. If other people decide to elect a candidate/party that makes a mess of a situation then I bear no responsibility. I would, however, be responsible if I'd voted for them because I didn't want someone else.

Now obviously if you wholeheartedly agree with a particular candidate and think they could represent you accurately then you should vote for them. But in a situation like the OP's where nobody fits the criteria, voting for someone you don't actually support is causing exactly what you're afraid of: someone you don't actually want getting the job.

If I had a choice of two accountants, neither of whom was actually going to do what I needed and may in fact make things worse, I'd try tackle the problem myself rather than get them to do it just so I can complain, especially if they're both going to get paid a ton. The experience of doing it might make me better able to do it in future.

I mean no offence to any accountants out there.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I consider it my duty as a citizen to vote. Plus, not voting - where would that get us unless they held an election and nobody voted?

Why vote just for the sake of it though? If you feel such civic duty then do something that will actually make a positive contribution to the world. Electing someone you don't even like is hardly going to achieve this.

As for your second point, the question isn't what you achieve by not voting: sure what do you achieve by not drink-driving? You're not the only person who keeps voting just because it seems like the right thing to do and as long as you keep doing it others will use you to justify their own voting. Ask yourself what you voting actually does achieve.

Fenian Army · 15-02-2012 06:02PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I wasn't swearing you honest. It was a FFS of utter frustration at the idea that one needs over 50k a year to travel from Cork/Donegal to Dublin and stay in Dublin for 3 nights for max four months a year .

My issue with SF, as I said in my OP, is reading high horse pronouncements such as from Doherty and then seeing he was in the top range of expenses claimed for 2011.

Why not send them an email asking what exactly its spent on?

Why not put up your own core values and people can advise you based on that? I.e, conservative, liberal, pro gay rights, feminist, religious etc etc etc

Are you going to that? If not it just looks like you are asking people to line up their own favorite party or whatever so you can knock them down.

Put up your own core values and we can see what they would be compatible with, must be more than just expenses

Morlar · 15-02-2012 06:11PM

Don't they also run constituency offices out of that ? Client surgeries ? PC equipment, phones, stationery etc

If it was 50k solely on transport and accomodation it sounds high to me.

Having said that I'd be surprised if SF were at the higher end of the scale in comparison to the rest of them. Plus they do actually turn up from time to time.

Bannasidhe · 15-02-2012 07:04PM

Fenian Army wrote: »

Why not send them an email asking what exactly its spent on?

Why not put up your own core values and people can advise you based on that? I.e, conservative, liberal, pro gay rights, feminist, religious etc etc etc

Are you going to that? If not it just looks like you are asking people to line up their own favorite party or whatever so you can knock them down.

Put up your own core values and we can see what they would be compatible with, must be more than just expenses

Ok Core Values:

I would be socially very liberal - I believe in absolute equality under the law regardless of gender, race, colour, creed (or lack of), sexual orientation, income, employment status etc etc.
So for me the Civil Partnership Act for example is not acceptable as it does not grant gay men and lesbians the exact same rights as heterosexuals have under marriage legislation

I also think legislation should be introduced grants unmarried fathers and mothers equal rights to their children - and the children of unmarried parents equal rights to both parents.

I believe the governed and the government have entered a social contract - we, the people, grant to then the 'powers' to rule on our behalf and they accept responsibility to do so with integrity and with the best interests of the people in mind at all times. Any proven criminal II would include expenses fraud in this) offence committed while in office should result in immediate resignation, loss of pension rights and disbarment from ever standing for public office - elected or unelected, including the Seanad and quangos, again.

It seems to me the FF acted to protect FF in the last days of the Cowan government - not the people.
I also think the decision to bail out Anglo was not in the interests of the people but of a small minority who had access to government.

I believe the state has a duty of care to protect its most vulnerable citizens.
Even at the height of the Celtic Tiger we had children being schooled in portacabins and people dying on trolleys (Remember Brenden Gleeson on the Late Late?) while wasting millions on poorly thought out vanity schemes and populist crap.

I believe those who 'rule' should do so by example.
Why can't TDs live on an average salary that is just twice the average industrial wage? The current wages/expenses scheme just reminds me of Haughey telling us we must all tighten our belts while wearing handmade shirts.

I believe the State should do everything in its power to ensure the budget is balanced.
There is too much wastage and too little accountability when it comes to public finances across all sectors- let me just say by way of example: FÁS.

I believe in the absolute separation of Church and State.

Morlar · 15-02-2012 07:10PM

Just out of curiosity, can you name an Irish politician, (alive or dead) who you would be 100% comfortable voting for ?

Fenian Army · 15-02-2012 07:19PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ok Core Values:

I would be socially very liberal - I believe in absolute equality under the law regardless of gender, race, colour, creed (or lack of), sexual orientation, income, employment status etc etc.
So for me the Civil Partnership Act for example is not acceptable as it does not grant gay men and lesbians the exact same rights as heterosexuals have under marriage legislation

I also think legislation should be introduced grants unmarried fathers and mothers equal rights to their children - and the children of unmarried parents equal rights to both parents.

I believe the governed and the government have entered a social contract - we, the people, grant to then the 'powers' to rule on our behalf and they accept responsibility to do so with integrity and with the best interests of the people in mind at all times. Any proven criminal II would include expenses fraud in this) offence committed while in office should result in immediate resignation, loss of pension rights and disbarment from ever standing for public office - elected or unelected, including the Seanad and quangos, again.

It seems to me the FF acted to protect FF in the last days of the Cowan government - not the people.
I also think the decision to bail out Anglo was not in the interests of the people but of a small minority who had access to government.

I believe the state has a duty of care to protect its most vulnerable citizens.
Even at the height of the Celtic Tiger we had children being schooled in portacabins and people dying on trolleys (Remember Brenden Gleeson on the Late Late?) while wasting millions on poorly thought out vanity schemes and populist crap.

I believe those who 'rule' should do so by example.
Why can't TDs live on an average salary that is just twice the average industrial wage? The current wages/expenses scheme just reminds me of Haughey telling us we must all tighten our belts while wearing handmade shirts.

I believe the State should do everything in its power to ensure the budget is balanced.
There is too much wastage and too little accountability when it comes to public finances across all sectors- let me just say by way of example: FÁS.

I believe in the absolute separation of Church and State.

Well thats FF, FG and Labour pretty much out.

Greens too.

Whats your stance on taxing the rich? How should it be balanced, tax the rich or slash hospitals, schools etc. Depending on that answer you may want to look at the ULA.

I would say though that Sinn Féin are probably a good fit but you have ruled them out solely based on expenses, but that brings me back to what I said earlier, only fools with no minds of their own blindly support everything their party does.

You seem to be looking for a party that exactly promotes the same views you do, one doesn't exist an will never exist unless you yourself start a party and limit its membership to one person, you.

Best of a bad lot, or run yourself

I'd reccomend going along to events organised by the various parties and see how you get on

On a human rights level I'd object to your punishment of criminals, thats for the courts to do and I'm a big believer in rehabilitation as well as democracy, if the public want to elect a master criminal then thats up to them, not for me to dictate who and who not people can vote for. Besides that I'd largely agree with you

TanG411 · 15-02-2012 07:22PM

Hello to my fellow Cork North-central candidate.

I have no-one to vote for...

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