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Large scale ladbrokes Scam

  • 09-02-2012 4:38pm
    #1
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭


    Ok guys...I'll put my hand up now. I'm not a virtual horse backer. I do however like the dogs, golf and the odd soccer.

    However, I was in a shop recently and witnessed a fight between a customer and a ladbrokes staff member. Presuming this guy was a degenerate I stepped in and told him to calm down. He told me what happened and it struck a chord with me.

    When he left screaming blue murder, I stayed to do some tests. This is a nasty little scam and also very, very dangerous.

    This is what they do. Some of you may be aware or Lucksin downs (not sure if that's exactly the right name)...it's ladbrokes own virtual racing.

    Now, this punter placed a bet on this and somehow won. When he went to collect, no doubt thanking his lucky stars for this cartoon getting him out of a hole...he was told he was late with the bet and he could get his stake back. He was obviously furious, claiming he wasn't late. It's here on the screen the shop attendant said.

    When the man left I began recording the actual off times, and comparing them to the off times that determine a winner and loser. Every time, they were out by 8 seconds.

    So..when the countdown is on, the real cut off point is approx 9 seconds. Not when it counts down to 0 as punters would obviously expect.

    Maybe it's just a mistake you may ask?

    Think about it...how many people would have backed a horse in this time and the horse lose...they're not going to ask for their money back cause they thought it was fair game.

    This is a major scam that they should be made to answer immediately. Unfortunately they could rectify it now..but of course the records of past off times will be recorded.

    I found this guy and told him what I discovered and now he's over the moon. I placed a 5 euro bet with 8 seconds to spare. I showed the attendant the slip as we both watched the time tick down. We both agreed it was in time. The horse lost. I gave him the docket and what did it say? Money back - late bet.


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Comments

  • #2
    Daisy M
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭Daisy M


    I work with a bookmakers not Ladbrokes and this is what happens with the virtuals. I dont know why but if we take a virtual a few seconds after the off it goes in as been late off. We are able to over ride our systems and pay out which is something we always do if its not long off. I dont think Ladbrokes staff have the same flexibility. There is some scam or other going on with the virtuals even the bookmakers dont know exactly what it is, but once the race has gone off then all bets have to be void. If its a regular then we give can choose to give a little leeway but not for a stranger especially one betting large amounts on virtual only.


  • #3
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    But the point here, which I know you didn't miss, is that ladbrokes are voiding the races 10 seconds before the official "off".

    This is a disgrace.


  • #4
    ft9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,408 ✭✭✭ft9


    Backing virtuals is a disgrace. Your own fault for betting against a computer really, and you know its a scam..... Do the maths.


  • #5
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    Oh FFS. That's not the issue.

    I personally believe that backing roulette, all weather racing...certain Irish handicaps are the basically the same trash as virtuals. But this is not the issue.

    Ladbrokes have potentially been raking millions from poor saps for years, via cheating.

    So let's take the moral high ground out of this because in my opinion no gambler has the right to feel superior to another, regardless of what they bet on.


  • #6
    Howjoe1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭Howjoe1


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    Ok guys...I'll put my hand up now. I'm not a virtual horse backer. I do however like the dogs, golf and the odd soccer.

    However, I was in a shop recently and witnessed a fight between a customer and a ladbrokes staff member. Presuming this guy was a degenerate I stepped in and told him to calm down. He told me what happened and it struck a chord with me.

    When he left screaming blue murder, I stayed to do some tests. This is a nasty little scam and also very, very dangerous.

    This is what they do. Some of you may be aware or Lucksin downs (not sure if that's exactly the right name)...it's ladbrokes own virtual racing.

    Now, this punter placed a bet on this and somehow won. When he went to collect, no doubt thanking his lucky stars for this cartoon getting him out of a hole...he was told he was late with the bet and he could get his stake back. He was obviously furious, claiming he wasn't late. It's here on the screen the shop attendant said.

    When the man left I began recording the actual off times, and comparing them to the off times that determine a winner and loser. Every time, they were out by 8 seconds.

    So..when the countdown is on, the real cut off point is approx 9 seconds. Not when it counts down to 0 as punters would obviously expect.

    Maybe it's just a mistake you may ask?

    Think about it...how many people would have backed a horse in this time and the horse lose...they're not going to ask for their money back cause they thought it was fair game.

    This is a major scam that they should be made to answer immediately. Unfortunately they could rectify it now..but of course the records of past off times will be recorded.

    I found this guy and told him what I discovered and now he's over the moon. I placed a 5 euro bet with 8 seconds to spare. I showed the attendant the slip as we both watched the time tick down. We both agreed it was in time. The horse lost. I gave him the docket and what did it say? Money back - late bet.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63849546


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  • #7
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    Thanks for that.

    I think people are tending to ignore this because it's about virtual racing.

    However, even though it's not my preferred bet, Im going to chase this up with ladbrokes. This lucks downs is their own private video game and they have complete control over it. All the times for sprint valley and cartoon dogs are spot on, but with their own one, they have this 8 second delay.


  • #8
    Howjoe1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭Howjoe1


    I brought the subject up awhile ago.

    It's a bit unfair to call it a true "scam".

    Having studied it in detail this is what I found.

    If you hand a docket to the cashier around 2 seconds before the off time of a virtual race, again it is scanned and handed back it will show a time of about 8 seconds after the off time.

    Solutions?

    shop allows a 15 second leeway on off time or

    they shut down off time ten seconds before the off.

    Easy to fix then.

    But let me draw your attention to an incident that happened in Ladbrokes Limerick Office recently.

    The customer was on the radio. she explain that five of them do the euromillions every Friday. They all place €2 on the same 3 numbers and get five seperate tickets with their indivual names written on each of them. Odds 1500/1.

    On this particularr Friday she as running late. The bets were placed and accepted at around 7.55 pm. The actual euromillions draw takes place at 8.30 pm.

    Out came their numbers and they believed they had won €15,000 between them.

    Happy days ? No because when they went to collect they were told that their bet was late ! the cut off time being 7.30 pm.

    No payout. In terms of Ladbrokes UK & Irish T/O , €15k would be tiny and good PR.


    But what is happening in both cases is , Ladbrokes taking all bets and when the staff process a late bet and it wins they rely on shop rule not to pay out and don't make it their business to inform customers that they have placed a void bet when in loses:mad:


    What that man should do is, request Ladbrokes send out someone from head office and he can demonstrate to them that bet as placed before the off time and the delay in the off time shown on the bet is something they have to address in the interest of fairness.


  • #9
    Howjoe1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭Howjoe1


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    Thanks for that.

    I think people are tending to ignore this because it's about virtual racing.

    However, even though it's not my preferred bet, Im going to chase this up with ladbrokes. This lucks downs is their own private video game and they have complete control over it. All the times for sprint valley and cartoon dogs are spot on, but with their own one, they have this 8 second delay.

    agree. the fact that it is virtual doesn't mean it should be any less fair.

    I get the odd good win on Steepledowns & Portman Park ....(don't play often)


    But ...on Luckin Downs ? NEVER had a decent win. My suspicion....Computer pocesses all bets placed before off and race outcome set to gauranteed a very good return.

    The "late" ones are not captured and throw out their figures.

    My policy....if you want to do virtual...use anything but Luckin Dons or Ladbrokes exclusively owned virtual. I once got over €2k on a €1 CTC at Sprint Valley:D


  • #10
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    I understand what you're saying but the more you look at it, the more you can see that they know it's happening and are not doing anything about it. This is a scam.


  • #11
    whatsupdoc?
    Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭whatsupdoc?


    Isn't Lucksin Downs exclusive to Ladbrokes.
    Sprint Valley, Portman park are available to all on SIS.
    Different bookies have different offs for virtuals.
    Lads call NMB around 5 seconds before the off on Lucksin.
    SV & Portman have a countdown on the screen to NMB.
    Some bookies will pay on a small delayed bet on a virtual but not many for a very good reason.
    I know for a fact there is a quicker feed using a head piece (that's all I'll say ;)) and some "punters" take advantage of the quicker feed.
    This is why some of the bookies call NMB earlier then they should to protect themselves.
    I was in Ladbrokes today and couldn't believe the number of punters who were backing the virtuals before the real racing started.


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  • #12
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    Ladbrokes do not call no more bets before the countdown finishes on lucksin downs.


  • #13
    shangri la
    Registered Users Posts: 952 ✭✭✭shangri la


    The last time I placed a bet on a horse in ladbrokes was about 3 years ago. They guarantee uk and irish races. I backed the horse at 3/1 and wrote the odds on the docket 30 minutes before the off. He won at 4/1. They paid me out at 3/1. I said hang on... I had to tell them he went off at bigger odds and get paid at 4/1 when all other bookies do it automatically.

    how did you find out when the cut of time for betting according to the tellers computer was?


  • #14
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    Not sure.

    Ladbrokes have admitted that there was a problem with their timings and it has been rectified now they say. They were found out.

    If this was a regulated business...like it should be...there should be an ad in the paper from ladbrokes saying that due to an error, 1000000 euro will be returned to customers.


  • #15
    phantasmagoria
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭phantasmagoria


    Tbh this scenario presented is highly unlikely. The countdown for lucksin downs allows for a bet to be placed on the off and it to be recognised as on time. Op has not taken into account the time taken for the slip to be taken off the counter and processed through the scanner. This all adds on seconds. If there's a delay it will return as late but that can be down to customer giving insufficient time for the bet to be processed or the cashier not doing so in a timely manner. With regard to betting on virtual racing, arguably you are more likely to get a large priced winner as its not based on form. Its a popular betting medium that is completely legit and above board.


  • #16
    UnitedIrishman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,369 ✭✭✭UnitedIrishman


    Hate to call BS OP, but.. BS.

    I've worked in Ladbrokes and it doesn't set the off time any differently to a normal horse race. In fact, the system allows for about 4 seconds after the off for a bet to be processed through the system. In most cases nowadays, staff can manually off these because they're a bit more lax - but generally only for regular customers who are genuine or in the case of a scanner getting caught or something like that.

    The reason they're strict on Lucksin is because they're short races and plus you're getting an advantage by seeing who goes off in front etc, just like a normal race.

    If a punter comes up and it's saying return stake then they're most definitely late, especially these days. I'm a punter myself and I've never once placed a bet late in my life. You have 2 minutes of a countdown to pick a horse, why the hell can't someone get a docket written (literally - 11.57 LD No 10 €10) and up in 30 secs? It's not like you're looking at form, jockeys etc.

    It's one thing that really infuriates me as a worker, when someone thinks that a) the company or b) we - are trying to screw a punter over. If you're bet says it was put on and through system at 11.57.36 and the off is 11.57.25 (we have clocks to watch it too by the way) then it's late. 99% of people who have this complaint are people who bet on every single virtual, dog, horse going and really don't have a clue what is going off where. There's a few in every shop.

    To be honest, I'd rather they got rid of virtual racing altogether because they're nothing but hassle. But of course, it's a major earner so they won't.


  • #17
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    You're wrong.

    And ladbrokes have proved that you're wrong by paying that punter and giving him an apology.


  • #18
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    phantasmagoria wrote: »
    Tbh this scenario presented is highly unlikely. The countdown for lucksin downs allows for a bet to be placed on the off and it to be recognised as on time. Op has not taken into account the time taken for the slip to be taken off the counter and processed through the scanner. This all adds on seconds. If there's a delay it will return as late but that can be down to customer giving insufficient time for the bet to be processed or the cashier not doing so in a timely manner. With regard to betting on virtual racing, arguably you are more likely to get a large priced winner as its not based on form. Its a popular betting medium that is completely legit and above board.

    Jesus christ...did any of you people actually read my opening post?

    We're not talking about dockets being scanned. The race went off 8 seconds after ladbrokes "offical" off time. EVERY TIME.

    Whether it is unlikely or not is irrelevant. It happened and it was proven as fact.

    Ladbrokes contacted me the other day and said it was just a glitch on that day. I'm 100% certain that that's BULL.

    They were scamming punters, and they're famous for it.


  • #19
    okidoki987
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,625 ✭✭✭✭okidoki987


    Get in touch with Punters Platform (John Martin) from the Star.
    He would love something like that.
    I'm getting in contact with him about another bookmaker over a problem bet I have.
    His number is (published in the Star so not a secret) 087 787 0416
    Email is jfin82004@yahoo.ie


  • #20
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    The problem with this one is that it's going to be difficult to prove now. Obviously on the day in question we had insurmountable evidence that was backed up by the ladbrokes staff...but if they say "Oh it was just a glitch on that day" - how can we disprove them?


  • #21
    phantasmagoria
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭phantasmagoria


    I would be fairly confident that it was a glitch on the day. Its akin to the screens freezing, which is an occurrence. Some races might have started and no message comes up to say that this is the case. As you have pointed out, somebody got paid out and an apology. I'm quite sure there is a record in the IT department of this incident you speak of. So large scale scam is exaggerating just a tad. I have never seen it in all my virtual betting experience, going on three years.


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  • #22
    UnitedIrishman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,369 ✭✭✭UnitedIrishman


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    You're wrong.

    And ladbrokes have proved that you're wrong by paying that punter and giving him an apology.

    No, not really. I've seen someone first hand been paid out on a race that was almost already over by them giving abuse at the counter, the customer ringing customer service and then customer service telling the cashier to pay them out and apologise.

    Now of course it rarely happens, but customer service/head office are the puppetmasters and as cashiers the staff are under their command.

    Also if there happened to be a glitch, and if your buddy new this why didn't he just get up to the counter 10-15 seconds earlier if he wanted to get a bet on?

    As for this being a big scam, best of luck with that one. Believe me I have a list of gripes/issues/disagreements with Ladbrokes but the idea that they're rigging the system is about as sensical a suggestion as Ladbrokes hand picking the winner of the race based on what money is on which horse.


  • #23
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    Think what ya want. Based on everything you have said so far, you haven't read my post properly or just read what you wanted to read.


  • #24
    Howjoe1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭Howjoe1


    It amazes me how many punters wait until the last second to place a bet on a virtual race....there's no advantage...prices don't change.


  • #25
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    It amazes me that people think that bookies don't have a list of tricks and cheeky little tools that they use to get more money out of punters. The naivety on this thread is staggering.


  • #26
    UnitedIrishman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,369 ✭✭✭UnitedIrishman


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    It amazes me that people think that bookies don't have a list of tricks and cheeky little tools that they use to get more money out of punters. The naivety on this thread is staggering.

    Go on then, name them.


  • #27
    Howjoe1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭Howjoe1


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    It amazes me that people think that bookies don't have a list of tricks and cheeky little tools that they use to get more money out of punters. The naivety on this thread is staggering.

    that's rubbish.. they are just trying to protect themselves from scammers.

    Are you aware how many con man go around the country pulling scams. Famous Slow Counters that hand in a bet at the off when counter is busy and watch the traps break open and if dog doesn't lead they leg it with stake still in their hand.
    It the shop doesn't have a zero tolerance of late bets it leaves itself open to staff ripping them off.

    True time delays on clocks are a rarity and not intentional.

    You have to see it from both sides.

    Solution is simple. Place your bet in plenty of time and no issue will arise..i.e. a mere 20 seconds before the off.


  • #28
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    What's rubbish? I haven't even told you what I'm referring to and you have deemed it rubbish.

    The fact that you're all saying that the time difference with ladbrokes is not intentional amazes me...none of you seem to understand what I was saying, yet you're still pretty happy to say I'm talking BS.

    I've spoken to the head PR man in ladbrokes and he has said that there is going to be a large scale investigaton into what happened with the lucksin downs races.

    Ladbrokes staff will tell you how many refunds they're told to leave in the system. But that's common in all bookmakers.

    You all must be perfect gamblers, tellling people to make sure they get their bet in in time. The fact is, if ladbrokes give you 60 seconds to place a bet on a cartoon bet, that's what you should be allowed.

    When I approached the manager about the lucksin down issue he gave me the same speel as you guys about it takes a few seconds for the bet to go through etc...that's fine, but completely irrelevant.

    You ask what other little tricks of the trade do ladbrokes employ? I'll tell you but because you all seem to be such bookie sympathisers, i'll probably be wasting my time.

    Here are just a couple for now:

    1. Let's say you're having an online bet - €100 on a horse. After you have that bet you then decide to have another bet... The €100 on that horse is there again which will increase the risk of you placing the bet again by mistake...either in a double with the other bet you wanted to do...or if you thought that you didn't put the bet through properly the first time. Paddy power give you the option of retaining your bet...ladbrokes don't. It retains it whether you like it or not. You'll say...well, punters should be more careful when placing their bets. Yes they should, but it's obvious what ladbrokes are doing here.

    2. In running betting. Not only ladbrokes are guilty of this but they are the worst for it. Let's use golf as an example. A player is 8-1 and hits a great approach an has a birdie chance. Immediately he will shorten. Same 8-1 shot hits the ball in the water... He stays at 8-1 for at least 5 minutes. Im a huge golf betting fan so I see this every weekend.

    3. In running horses. Horse falls or loses 20 lengths at the start? You can still back him at his sp for about 5-10 seconds. The ladbrokes iPhone app and online system doesn't tell you when a horse race has gone "in play". This is a disgraceful practise as someone having a bet deserves to know if the horse they're backing has a fair chance of victory.

    I have more, but am on phone with dying battery.

    This isn't a vendetta against ladbrokes but they get away with far too much IMO.


  • #29
    okidoki987
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,625 ✭✭✭✭okidoki987


    Ladbrokes hand picking the winner of the race based on what money is on which horse.

    Not for HR but don't they do that when they occasionally do "money back" a losing trap number?
    Race is over and you wait and wait until about 3 minutes after the race to hear which losing trap number is the money back trap.
    During this time they had checked all the bets going through and know which trap number is the smallest loser for them and low and behold that's their Refunding trap number.
    I've never seen them do the fav in a race!
    Why can't they do what PP do?
    Money Back Losing bets, all traps in a race and they announce it when the race starts and don't wait until the race is over.


  • #30
    UnitedIrishman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,369 ✭✭✭UnitedIrishman


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    What's rubbish? I haven't even told you what I'm referring to and you have deemed it rubbish.

    The fact that you're all saying that the time difference with ladbrokes is not intentional amazes me...none of you seem to understand what I was saying, yet you're still pretty happy to say I'm talking BS.

    I've spoken to the head PR man in ladbrokes and he has said that there is going to be a large scale investigaton into what happened with the lucksin downs races.

    Ladbrokes staff will tell you how many refunds they're told to leave in the system. But that's common in all bookmakers.

    You all must be perfect gamblers, tellling people to make sure they get their bet in in time. The fact is, if ladbrokes give you 60 seconds to place a bet on a cartoon bet, that's what you should be allowed.

    When I approached the manager about the lucksin down issue he gave me the same speel as you guys about it takes a few seconds for the bet to go through etc...that's fine, but completely irrelevant.

    You ask what other little tricks of the trade do ladbrokes employ? I'll tell you but because you all seem to be such bookie sympathisers, i'll probably be wasting my time.

    Here are just a couple for now:

    1. Let's say you're having an online bet - €100 on a horse. After you have that bet you then decide to have another bet... The €100 on that horse is there again which will increase the risk of you placing the bet again by mistake...either in a double with the other bet you wanted to do...or if you thought that you didn't put the bet through properly the first time. Paddy power give you the option of retaining your bet...ladbrokes don't. It retains it whether you like it or not. You'll say...well, punters should be more careful when placing their bets. Yes they should, but it's obvious what ladbrokes are doing here.

    2. In running betting. Not only ladbrokes are guilty of this but they are the worst for it. Let's use golf as an example. A player is 8-1 and hits a great approach an has a birdie chance. Immediately he will shorten. Same 8-1 shot hits the ball in the water... He stays at 8-1 for at least 5 minutes. Im a huge golf betting fan so I see this every weekend.

    3. In running horses. Horse falls or loses 20 lengths at the start? You can still back him at his sp for about 5-10 seconds. The ladbrokes iPhone app and online system doesn't tell you when a horse race has gone "in play". This is a disgraceful practise as someone having a bet deserves to know if the horse they're backing has a fair chance of victory.

    I have more, but am on phone with dying battery.

    This isn't a vendetta against ladbrokes but they get away with far too much IMO.

    I'm not a bookie sympathiser. I've worked in a bookies, but I've also bet for all of my adult life. Believe me, when I worked in one I gave as much to the punter as I could in terms of being a few seconds late after the off or with a price, without getting sacked or a warning - **** it, it's not my money I'm giving them. If I spotted a regular customers bet that was in the system backlog as returned stake, I'd let them know. I know what you're saying about others not doing the same, but if they're betting like that then they should keep their slips and see whats on them at the end of the day or if there's any returned stakes.

    But from my experience of being behind the counter, the majority of customer you describe (running up at last couple seconds) are messers (for want of a better word). Same lads will put down the wrong time on bets because they more than likely don't know what time the race is because they bet on everything or they're trying to screw you over by saying "oh that's for the next race, after this one".

    I understand what your saying RE: a glitch, but I worked there for quite a few years and there was never any issue with the LD offs. And that was in quite a few places where there was last second punters. Now perhaps that could be the reason they've relaxed their stance on staff manually off'ing virtual races, incase these events occured in the future.

    In response to your examples:
    1 - Ladbrokes website is pretty poor on a whole anyways and I've only used it a few times. But yeah that's a pretty stupid setup, totally agree with you there. But like you say, punters should be more careful anyways. And that's what a lot of this thread comes down to - 'be careful, be on time, be correct' - and you'll have no issues. Understandably everyone makes mistakes but if you're going to run around backing everything that moves a) you're going to lose and b) you're going to make more mistakes than the majority. Most cashiers will be sound with you if you're genuine with them.

    2 - That doesn't seem out of the ordinary to me and again it comes down to the punter being attentive. Ok, so the guy gets close to the pin - they've a chance of improving their score, of course their price will drop. If they hit a terrible shot and they stay the same price for a few mins, then back the other guy! You'd be getting the better price on them then.

    3 - Again, I probably agree with you here with regards race being off. But again be attentive, are you backing a race without watching it? Also in running on horses with any bookmaker I've used is disastrous because the prices are all over the shop. Betfair at least is responding to where the volume of money is and therefore is quicker. I know that anywhere I've worked/bet that if a horse falls at the first or a horse fails to start then it's no more bets and no exceptions.

    And the glory in all this is - you don't have to bet with them. Lord knows I've an account with about 5-6 bookmakers. If I got bad service in a restaurant I used once or twice, I wouldn't go back instead of going back regularly and just complaining constantly about the place.

    Also, again this isn't me defending the company blindly because I could come up with a list of my own stuff that annoyed me about them as employers but it's a system I'm familiar with and therefore feel a bit more able to respond.


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  • #31
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    Thanks for the well thought out reply.

    I work in the industry and often write about different bookies etc. I strongly believe that the industry needs to be looked at in the same way that the alcohol one is. Yes people should be attentive and selective with their bets but if they're not, that's not a crime and I do believe that ladbrokes and some others overly take advantage of this. Basically seek to get an extra advantage when one isn't needed.

    Going back to the lucksin downs thing for a sec. Everyone seems to be blaming the punter for coming up late but I don't get that. What of he's in a queue and gets to the teller at 20 secs left and it takes a few seconds to read the bet and then put it through. If the customer receives their docket with 8 seconds to go, they may not know it but their bet is now void.


  • #32
    Kid Charlemagne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 268 ✭✭Kid Charlemagne


    My opinion is that there should be an obligation on all bookies to pay a bet if they've taken the stake. How they can get away with refusing it on the basis that the bet was made late or that they put the wrong price up is beyond me.

    Likewise this crack of closing winning punters accounts is a bit dodgy, fair enough I dont think its the govt's right to force bookies to accept bets but certainly the bookies could be obliged to identify destructive betting patterns and contact punters who are clearly getting themselves into a lot of trouble - and put them in contact with GA or whoever, rather than just take every penny with a "no-one forced hit to bet" attitude.

    As it stands they have it every way.


  • #33
    Howjoe1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭Howjoe1


    Kid Charlemagne wrote: »
    My opinion is that there should be an obligation on all bookies to pay a bet if they've taken the stake. How they can get away with refusing it on the basis that the bet was made late or that they put the wrong price up is beyond me.

    .

    Kid,


    So a horse is 10/1 ..your girl friend works in the bookies. You write 100/1 on your docket and its put through the system.

    Think about it !

    Put yourself in the bookies shoes and I think your attitude would change.


  • #34
    phantasmagoria
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭phantasmagoria


    abouttobebanned wrote: »

    Going back to the lucksin downs thing for a sec. Everyone seems to be blaming the punter for coming up late but I don't get that. What of he's in a queue and gets to the teller at 20 secs left and it takes a few seconds to read the bet and then put it through. If the customer receives their docket with 8 seconds to go, they may not know it but their bet is now void.

    Betting shop etiquette these days is such that somebody wanting to place a bet
    on a race about to go off is given priority as they push themselves to the front and fan out around the person in front (i.e. the customer's bet which might not be so pressing from a timeliness point of view) - so realistically these bets should not be presented late. We've all seen it in shops - an example is the hare is running bell and there's 3 lads running towards the counter, who will inevitably get their bets on 99 times out of 100 with no problem. The hare is running is supposed to signal no more bets (in practice bets are still taken at this point) , likewise lucksin downs off no more bets message means if it hasn't been stamped/processed you are probably going to be late


  • #35
    Kid Charlemagne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 268 ✭✭Kid Charlemagne


    Howjoe,
    sorry - no thats not what im on about.
    like yourself ive nothing against the people working the the shops at all - and if a punter makes up his own odds he has no right to expect to be paid on them.

    what im on about is if the bookies put up a wrong price on their system - say for example two teams are playing, one is 1/5 and the other is 3/1 - but they put the 2 prices on the wrong teams. Then I back the 1/5 shot at 3/1 to take advantage of their error.
    As it stands they would be able to cancel the bet and give me back my stake if I go to collect. If my bet lost anyway - theyd still have my dosh, unless it was placed online.

    what rankles with me is that if i was to accidentally back the wrong team etc, i havent an icecubes of seeing my stake back, whereas whenever they make an errror they can correct it. as far as im concerned they should have to pay for their mistakes. sure its not like they would ever lose huge sums because they red-flag any unusual betting patterns and mistakes are quickly rectified.


  • #36
    Arnoldcob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭Arnoldcob


    Hi guys,

    We've been alerted to this and will send someone to Ladbrokes tomorrow to investigate.

    We're Gambling Reform & Society Perception (GRASP) Group in case anything else comes up.


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  • #37
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    phantasmagoria wrote: »
    Betting shop etiquette these days is such that somebody wanting to place a bet
    on a race about to go off is given priority as they push themselves to the front and fan out around the person in front (i.e. the customer's bet which might not be so pressing from a timeliness point of view) - so realistically these bets should not be presented late. We've all seen it in shops - an example is the hare is running bell and there's 3 lads running towards the counter, who will inevitably get their bets on 99 times out of 100 with no problem. The hare is running is supposed to signal no more bets (in practice bets are still taken at this point) , likewise lucksin downs off no more bets message means if it hasn't been stamped/processed you are probably going to be late

    Firstly, there is no "no more bets" message at lucksin downs. The punter will presume that at o seconds he can no longer have a bet. (incidentally, the horses do not leave the stalls until a further second after that.

    I'll say this for the last time. If a punter has has his bet placed, it's gone through the system and he has his copy of the docket and there is still 5 seconds left...he doesnt know it, but his bet is void.

    They had an 8 second time difference that they exploited in full.

    The chap who thought he was ripped off the other day asked a legitimate question as he was about to collect his winnings. "what would have happened if the horse lost?". Sadly, the answer is, nothing.

    If the banks were withholding as much of our money as bookmakers are there would be riots on the streets. But because they're bookies, we almost accept and are used to them taking our money.

    Wake up lads, please!


  • #38
    okidoki987
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,625 ✭✭✭✭okidoki987


    My opinion is that there should be an obligation on all bookies to pay a bet if they've taken the stake.How they can get away with refusing it on the basis that the bet was made late or that they put the wrong price up is beyond me
    .

    Bookies would be bust in a month.
    It's a business and it's them against the punter.
    If someone puts up 3/1 on a 1/5, it will be paid at 1/5.
    There's no chance of getting paid at 3/1.
    Likewise this crack of closing winning punters accounts is a bit dodgy, fair enough I dont think its the govt's right to force bookies to accept bets but certainly the bookies could be obliged to identify destructive betting patterns and contact punters who are clearly getting themselves into a lot of trouble - and put them in contact with GA or whoever, rather than just take every penny with a "no-one forced hit to bet" attitude.

    You haven't had many bets have you?
    Having been restricted in a couple of firms, it's a pain but you live with it, it's
    the name of the game.
    Happens to loads of people and there nothing that can be done about it.
    I'm sure bookies would contact GA :rolleyes:
    Sure if they are losing a fortune, the bookies would be kicking themselves in the foot as they would lose a losing punter.
    Ain't gonna happen.


  • #39
    Kid Charlemagne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 268 ✭✭Kid Charlemagne


    okidoki987 wrote: »
    .

    Bookies would be bust in a month.
    It's a business and it's them against the punter.
    If someone puts up 3/1 on a 1/5, it will be paid at 1/5.
    There's no chance of getting paid at 3/1.


    As I say - this is not what im talkin about - see my response to howjoe.



    You haven't had many bets have you?

    I dont know how you would define many but ive been betting for about 15 years - within my means and without any problems, unsustainable losses etc. Dont really see the relevance anyway. Seems like your trying to be patronising and set yourself up as some bigtime gambler character. Good for you Ace, good for you.

     Having been restricted in a couple of firms, it's a pain but you live with it, it's
    the name of the game.
    Happens to loads of people and there nothing that can be done about it.
    I'm sure bookies would contact GA :rolleyes:
    Sure if they are losing a fortune, the bookies would be kicking themselves in the foot as they would lose a losing punter.
    Ain't gonna happen.

    Aint gonna happen when the industry is unregulated - very easy to impose rules on bookies that would jeopradise their licence if they were found to be in breach. likewise very easy to alter civil law to place a proportion of blame on bookies who ignore telltale signs and continue to take money from addicts. Its not nescessarily about losing a fortune either - a lad on the dole could get himself in serious trouble by losing a grand or two which certainly wouldnt be a fortune at all by anyones standards.


  • #40
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,358 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Kid Charlemagne wrote: »
    Aint gonna happen when the industry is unregulated - very easy to impose rules on bookies that would jeopradise their licence if they were found to be in breach. likewise very easy to alter civil law to place a proportion of blame on bookies who ignore telltale signs and continue to take money from addicts. Its not nescessarily about losing a fortune either - a lad on the dole could get himself in serious trouble by losing a grand or two which certainly wouldnt be a fortune at all by anyones standards.

    The industry is regulated.

    http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/default.aspx

    There already are rules in place as to how bookmakers deal with problem gamblers which bookies must follow if they want to keep their license. If someone does not admit they have a problem then I don't see what you expect the bookies to do.

    Social responsibility code provision
    Licensees must make information readily available to their customers on how to gamble
    responsibly and how to access information about, and help in respect of, problem gambling.
    The information must cover:
    • any measures provided by the licensee to help individuals monitor or control their
    gambling, such as restricting the duration of a gambling session or the amount of money
    they can spend
    • timers or other forms of reminders or ‘reality checks’ where available
    • self-exclusion options
    • information about the availability of further help or advice.
    The information must be directed to all customers whether or not licensees also make available
    material which is directed specifically at customers who may be ‘problem gamblers’.
    For gambling premises, information must be available in all areas where gambling facilities are
    provided and adjacent to ATMs where these are not located in a gambling area. As a minimum, 24 LCCP 11/04
    information must be displayed prominently on posters appropriate to the size and layout of the
    premises and contained in leaflets that may be taken away. Licensees must take all reasonable
    steps to ensure that this information is also readily accessible in locations which enable the
    customer to obtain it discreetly.

    Edit: I also find it highly doubtful that Ladbrokes, a reputable bookmakers who turnover hundreds of millions of pounds a year, are purposely scamming people who bet on this one virtual race meeting


  • #41
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    No offence, but what substance is there in what you think? Scam is a rough word, but whatever way you look at it, it's exactly what they were doing.

    Banks have done it. Governments have done it. Building societies have done it. "reputable companies" have done it.

    But no way would ladbrokes do it. Jesus the naivety is actually becoming a bit unsettling now.


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  • #42
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,358 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    No offence, but what substance is there in what you think? Scam is a rough word, but whatever way you look at it, it's exactly what they were doing.

    Banks have done it. Governments have done it. Building societies have done it. "reputable companies" have done it.

    But no way would ladbrokes do it. Jesus the naivety is actually becoming a bit unsettling now.

    Why do people think that the bookies are out to get them? I've worked in the industry for years and can say that this isn't the case.


  • #43
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    Lol I've heard it all now. You work in the industry years so you can say that it isnt the case that many bookies use underhand tactics to take more money off punters.

    I didn't make a generalisation that bookies are out to get people, I gave specific examples. If you'd like to argue those then please, go ahead. But I really can't believe that you think you can speak for the integrity of the whole industry.


  • #44
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    Lol I've heard it all now. You work in the industry years so you can say that it isnt the case that many bookies use underhand tactics to take more money off punters.

    I didn't make a generalisation that bookies are out to get people, I gave specific examples. If you'd like to argue those then please, go ahead. But I really can't believe that you think you can speak for the integrity of the whole industry.
    You are talking through your hat. This elaborate scheme you think ladbrokes have set up to defraud you can be defeated by putting your bets on 2 minutes before the off. These are fixed odds races, the prices do not fluctuate.

    Seriously, you are making a fool of yourself.

    *edit* Frankly mate, if you are the sort of punter running up to the counter at the off for Lucksin downs, Ladbrokes dont need a scam to take your money off you.


  • #45
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    You need to learn to read. I've never backed a virtual horse in my life. I'm done talking to you now because, every offence intended, you're a bit slow.


  • #46
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    Anyone else think I'm making a fool of myself by the way? I'd be very interested to see if there are others who seem to think I'm some kind of deluded and disgruntled punter.


  • #47
    ft9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,408 ✭✭✭ft9


    I don't think you are making a fool of yourself at all.

    You are dead right in fact to pull Ladbrokes up on this.

    I do however not understand how you can back virtual things like this that a bookmaker has full control of the outcome. Also you know they are cheating to give them an extra edge.

    But yeah your point stands that something should be done about it, but I think my point also stands that you should avoid virtuals like the plague.


  • #48
    ft9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,408 ✭✭✭ft9


    And Ive just read your last post that you never backed a virtual, my apologies, and good luck with your quest.


  • #49
    Howjoe1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭Howjoe1


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    Anyone else think I'm making a fool of myself by the way? I'd be very interested to see if there are others who seem to think I'm some kind of deluded and disgruntled punter.

    i think you've over reacted a bit.

    btw ..without you placing a series of bets on luckins down, how can you establish that Ladbrokes any engaged in a PERSISTENT and deliberate abuse of off times ?


  • #50
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    You need to learn to read. I've never backed a virtual horse in my life. I'm done talking to you now because, every offence intended, you're a bit slow.
    Think about what you are saying. You are saying that Ladbrokes are endangering their ability to trade and their entire business specifically in order to take money from people betting in the last 20 seconds before the off at Lucksin downs. That is COMPLETELY ABSURD.

    Ive worked extensively with designing, building and supporting betting shop AV and IT systems like this one. There is no scam. There is no need for one, the overround locks in a profit and the punters are the easiest in the whole industry to take money from.

    The sports betting industry is infested and surrounded by hysterical lackwits. Im glad I got out.


  • #51
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    Ladbrokes must be happy that they have so many friends in the gambling fraternity.

    I can't tell you how I know that it has been going on for over 8 months now, but I just know. Like I know that since I made the complaint to ladbrokes the off time is now registered when the horses leave the stalls.

    Couple of points..I have nothing against people who back virtual racing...as I've said, I think certain horse races are just as weighted in the bookie's favour, some even more so.

    Also, you asked a good question there, I can't give you the answer cause it could get someone in trouble, but I am more than happy to answer anyone who is questioning any of the things I have said. What annoys me is people who are just blindly saying that I'm talking nonsense.

    Think for a second about what the banks have been up to over the past 5 years. If someone opened a thread in the finance forum speculating about what was going on he'd be called a conspiracy theorist...people would call BS etc...


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