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Large scale ladbrokes Scam

  • 09-02-2012 3:38pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭ abouttobebanned


    Ok guys...I'll put my hand up now. I'm not a virtual horse backer. I do however like the dogs, golf and the odd soccer.

    However, I was in a shop recently and witnessed a fight between a customer and a ladbrokes staff member. Presuming this guy was a degenerate I stepped in and told him to calm down. He told me what happened and it struck a chord with me.

    When he left screaming blue murder, I stayed to do some tests. This is a nasty little scam and also very, very dangerous.

    This is what they do. Some of you may be aware or Lucksin downs (not sure if that's exactly the right name)...it's ladbrokes own virtual racing.

    Now, this punter placed a bet on this and somehow won. When he went to collect, no doubt thanking his lucky stars for this cartoon getting him out of a hole...he was told he was late with the bet and he could get his stake back. He was obviously furious, claiming he wasn't late. It's here on the screen the shop attendant said.

    When the man left I began recording the actual off times, and comparing them to the off times that determine a winner and loser. Every time, they were out by 8 seconds.

    So..when the countdown is on, the real cut off point is approx 9 seconds. Not when it counts down to 0 as punters would obviously expect.

    Maybe it's just a mistake you may ask?

    Think about it...how many people would have backed a horse in this time and the horse lose...they're not going to ask for their money back cause they thought it was fair game.

    This is a major scam that they should be made to answer immediately. Unfortunately they could rectify it now..but of course the records of past off times will be recorded.

    I found this guy and told him what I discovered and now he's over the moon. I placed a 5 euro bet with 8 seconds to spare. I showed the attendant the slip as we both watched the time tick down. We both agreed it was in time. The horse lost. I gave him the docket and what did it say? Money back - late bet.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,559 Daisy M
    Registered User


    I work with a bookmakers not Ladbrokes and this is what happens with the virtuals. I dont know why but if we take a virtual a few seconds after the off it goes in as been late off. We are able to over ride our systems and pay out which is something we always do if its not long off. I dont think Ladbrokes staff have the same flexibility. There is some scam or other going on with the virtuals even the bookmakers dont know exactly what it is, but once the race has gone off then all bets have to be void. If its a regular then we give can choose to give a little leeway but not for a stranger especially one betting large amounts on virtual only.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭ abouttobebanned


    But the point here, which I know you didn't miss, is that ladbrokes are voiding the races 10 seconds before the official "off".

    This is a disgrace.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,407 ✭✭✭ ft9
    Registered User


    Backing virtuals is a disgrace. Your own fault for betting against a computer really, and you know its a scam..... Do the maths.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭ abouttobebanned


    Oh FFS. That's not the issue.

    I personally believe that backing roulette, all weather racing...certain Irish handicaps are the basically the same trash as virtuals. But this is not the issue.

    Ladbrokes have potentially been raking millions from poor saps for years, via cheating.

    So let's take the moral high ground out of this because in my opinion no gambler has the right to feel superior to another, regardless of what they bet on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭ Howjoe1


    Ok guys...I'll put my hand up now. I'm not a virtual horse backer. I do however like the dogs, golf and the odd soccer.

    However, I was in a shop recently and witnessed a fight between a customer and a ladbrokes staff member. Presuming this guy was a degenerate I stepped in and told him to calm down. He told me what happened and it struck a chord with me.

    When he left screaming blue murder, I stayed to do some tests. This is a nasty little scam and also very, very dangerous.

    This is what they do. Some of you may be aware or Lucksin downs (not sure if that's exactly the right name)...it's ladbrokes own virtual racing.

    Now, this punter placed a bet on this and somehow won. When he went to collect, no doubt thanking his lucky stars for this cartoon getting him out of a hole...he was told he was late with the bet and he could get his stake back. He was obviously furious, claiming he wasn't late. It's here on the screen the shop attendant said.

    When the man left I began recording the actual off times, and comparing them to the off times that determine a winner and loser. Every time, they were out by 8 seconds.

    So..when the countdown is on, the real cut off point is approx 9 seconds. Not when it counts down to 0 as punters would obviously expect.

    Maybe it's just a mistake you may ask?

    Think about it...how many people would have backed a horse in this time and the horse lose...they're not going to ask for their money back cause they thought it was fair game.

    This is a major scam that they should be made to answer immediately. Unfortunately they could rectify it now..but of course the records of past off times will be recorded.

    I found this guy and told him what I discovered and now he's over the moon. I placed a 5 euro bet with 8 seconds to spare. I showed the attendant the slip as we both watched the time tick down. We both agreed it was in time. The horse lost. I gave him the docket and what did it say? Money back - late bet.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63849546


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭ abouttobebanned


    Thanks for that.

    I think people are tending to ignore this because it's about virtual racing.

    However, even though it's not my preferred bet, Im going to chase this up with ladbrokes. This lucks downs is their own private video game and they have complete control over it. All the times for sprint valley and cartoon dogs are spot on, but with their own one, they have this 8 second delay.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭ Howjoe1


    I brought the subject up awhile ago.

    It's a bit unfair to call it a true "scam".

    Having studied it in detail this is what I found.

    If you hand a docket to the cashier around 2 seconds before the off time of a virtual race, again it is scanned and handed back it will show a time of about 8 seconds after the off time.

    Solutions?

    shop allows a 15 second leeway on off time or

    they shut down off time ten seconds before the off.

    Easy to fix then.

    But let me draw your attention to an incident that happened in Ladbrokes Limerick Office recently.

    The customer was on the radio. she explain that five of them do the euromillions every Friday. They all place €2 on the same 3 numbers and get five seperate tickets with their indivual names written on each of them. Odds 1500/1.

    On this particularr Friday she as running late. The bets were placed and accepted at around 7.55 pm. The actual euromillions draw takes place at 8.30 pm.

    Out came their numbers and they believed they had won €15,000 between them.

    Happy days ? No because when they went to collect they were told that their bet was late ! the cut off time being 7.30 pm.

    No payout. In terms of Ladbrokes UK & Irish T/O , €15k would be tiny and good PR.


    But what is happening in both cases is , Ladbrokes taking all bets and when the staff process a late bet and it wins they rely on shop rule not to pay out and don't make it their business to inform customers that they have placed a void bet when in loses:mad:


    What that man should do is, request Ladbrokes send out someone from head office and he can demonstrate to them that bet as placed before the off time and the delay in the off time shown on the bet is something they have to address in the interest of fairness.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭ Howjoe1


    Thanks for that.

    I think people are tending to ignore this because it's about virtual racing.

    However, even though it's not my preferred bet, Im going to chase this up with ladbrokes. This lucks downs is their own private video game and they have complete control over it. All the times for sprint valley and cartoon dogs are spot on, but with their own one, they have this 8 second delay.

    agree. the fact that it is virtual doesn't mean it should be any less fair.

    I get the odd good win on Steepledowns & Portman Park ....(don't play often)


    But ...on Luckin Downs ? NEVER had a decent win. My suspicion....Computer pocesses all bets placed before off and race outcome set to gauranteed a very good return.

    The "late" ones are not captured and throw out their figures.

    My policy....if you want to do virtual...use anything but Luckin Dons or Ladbrokes exclusively owned virtual. I once got over €2k on a €1 CTC at Sprint Valley:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭ abouttobebanned


    I understand what you're saying but the more you look at it, the more you can see that they know it's happening and are not doing anything about it. This is a scam.


  • Registered Users Posts: 706 whatsupdoc?
    Registered User


    Isn't Lucksin Downs exclusive to Ladbrokes.
    Sprint Valley, Portman park are available to all on SIS.
    Different bookies have different offs for virtuals.
    Lads call NMB around 5 seconds before the off on Lucksin.
    SV & Portman have a countdown on the screen to NMB.
    Some bookies will pay on a small delayed bet on a virtual but not many for a very good reason.
    I know for a fact there is a quicker feed using a head piece (that's all I'll say ;)) and some "punters" take advantage of the quicker feed.
    This is why some of the bookies call NMB earlier then they should to protect themselves.
    I was in Ladbrokes today and couldn't believe the number of punters who were backing the virtuals before the real racing started.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭ abouttobebanned


    Ladbrokes do not call no more bets before the countdown finishes on lucksin downs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 952 ✭✭✭ shangri la
    Registered User


    The last time I placed a bet on a horse in ladbrokes was about 3 years ago. They guarantee uk and irish races. I backed the horse at 3/1 and wrote the odds on the docket 30 minutes before the off. He won at 4/1. They paid me out at 3/1. I said hang on... I had to tell them he went off at bigger odds and get paid at 4/1 when all other bookies do it automatically.

    how did you find out when the cut of time for betting according to the tellers computer was?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭ abouttobebanned


    Not sure.

    Ladbrokes have admitted that there was a problem with their timings and it has been rectified now they say. They were found out.

    If this was a regulated business...like it should be...there should be an ad in the paper from ladbrokes saying that due to an error, 1000000 euro will be returned to customers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭ phantasmagoria
    Registered User


    Tbh this scenario presented is highly unlikely. The countdown for lucksin downs allows for a bet to be placed on the off and it to be recognised as on time. Op has not taken into account the time taken for the slip to be taken off the counter and processed through the scanner. This all adds on seconds. If there's a delay it will return as late but that can be down to customer giving insufficient time for the bet to be processed or the cashier not doing so in a timely manner. With regard to betting on virtual racing, arguably you are more likely to get a large priced winner as its not based on form. Its a popular betting medium that is completely legit and above board.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,369 ✭✭✭ UnitedIrishman
    Registered User


    Hate to call BS OP, but.. BS.

    I've worked in Ladbrokes and it doesn't set the off time any differently to a normal horse race. In fact, the system allows for about 4 seconds after the off for a bet to be processed through the system. In most cases nowadays, staff can manually off these because they're a bit more lax - but generally only for regular customers who are genuine or in the case of a scanner getting caught or something like that.

    The reason they're strict on Lucksin is because they're short races and plus you're getting an advantage by seeing who goes off in front etc, just like a normal race.

    If a punter comes up and it's saying return stake then they're most definitely late, especially these days. I'm a punter myself and I've never once placed a bet late in my life. You have 2 minutes of a countdown to pick a horse, why the hell can't someone get a docket written (literally - 11.57 LD No 10 €10) and up in 30 secs? It's not like you're looking at form, jockeys etc.

    It's one thing that really infuriates me as a worker, when someone thinks that a) the company or b) we - are trying to screw a punter over. If you're bet says it was put on and through system at 11.57.36 and the off is 11.57.25 (we have clocks to watch it too by the way) then it's late. 99% of people who have this complaint are people who bet on every single virtual, dog, horse going and really don't have a clue what is going off where. There's a few in every shop.

    To be honest, I'd rather they got rid of virtual racing altogether because they're nothing but hassle. But of course, it's a major earner so they won't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭ abouttobebanned


    You're wrong.

    And ladbrokes have proved that you're wrong by paying that punter and giving him an apology.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭ abouttobebanned


    Tbh this scenario presented is highly unlikely. The countdown for lucksin downs allows for a bet to be placed on the off and it to be recognised as on time. Op has not taken into account the time taken for the slip to be taken off the counter and processed through the scanner. This all adds on seconds. If there's a delay it will return as late but that can be down to customer giving insufficient time for the bet to be processed or the cashier not doing so in a timely manner. With regard to betting on virtual racing, arguably you are more likely to get a large priced winner as its not based on form. Its a popular betting medium that is completely legit and above board.

    Jesus christ...did any of you people actually read my opening post?

    We're not talking about dockets being scanned. The race went off 8 seconds after ladbrokes "offical" off time. EVERY TIME.

    Whether it is unlikely or not is irrelevant. It happened and it was proven as fact.

    Ladbrokes contacted me the other day and said it was just a glitch on that day. I'm 100% certain that that's BULL.

    They were scamming punters, and they're famous for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,546 ✭✭✭✭ okidoki987
    Registered User


    Get in touch with Punters Platform (John Martin) from the Star.
    He would love something like that.
    I'm getting in contact with him about another bookmaker over a problem bet I have.
    His number is (published in the Star so not a secret) 087 787 0416
    Email is [email protected]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭ abouttobebanned


    The problem with this one is that it's going to be difficult to prove now. Obviously on the day in question we had insurmountable evidence that was backed up by the ladbrokes staff...but if they say "Oh it was just a glitch on that day" - how can we disprove them?


  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭ phantasmagoria
    Registered User


    I would be fairly confident that it was a glitch on the day. Its akin to the screens freezing, which is an occurrence. Some races might have started and no message comes up to say that this is the case. As you have pointed out, somebody got paid out and an apology. I'm quite sure there is a record in the IT department of this incident you speak of. So large scale scam is exaggerating just a tad. I have never seen it in all my virtual betting experience, going on three years.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,369 ✭✭✭ UnitedIrishman
    Registered User


    You're wrong.

    And ladbrokes have proved that you're wrong by paying that punter and giving him an apology.

    No, not really. I've seen someone first hand been paid out on a race that was almost already over by them giving abuse at the counter, the customer ringing customer service and then customer service telling the cashier to pay them out and apologise.

    Now of course it rarely happens, but customer service/head office are the puppetmasters and as cashiers the staff are under their command.

    Also if there happened to be a glitch, and if your buddy new this why didn't he just get up to the counter 10-15 seconds earlier if he wanted to get a bet on?

    As for this being a big scam, best of luck with that one. Believe me I have a list of gripes/issues/disagreements with Ladbrokes but the idea that they're rigging the system is about as sensical a suggestion as Ladbrokes hand picking the winner of the race based on what money is on which horse.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭ abouttobebanned


    Think what ya want. Based on everything you have said so far, you haven't read my post properly or just read what you wanted to read.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭ Howjoe1


    It amazes me how many punters wait until the last second to place a bet on a virtual race....there's no advantage...prices don't change.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭ abouttobebanned


    It amazes me that people think that bookies don't have a list of tricks and cheeky little tools that they use to get more money out of punters. The naivety on this thread is staggering.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,369 ✭✭✭ UnitedIrishman
    Registered User


    It amazes me that people think that bookies don't have a list of tricks and cheeky little tools that they use to get more money out of punters. The naivety on this thread is staggering.

    Go on then, name them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭ Howjoe1


    It amazes me that people think that bookies don't have a list of tricks and cheeky little tools that they use to get more money out of punters. The naivety on this thread is staggering.

    that's rubbish.. they are just trying to protect themselves from scammers.

    Are you aware how many con man go around the country pulling scams. Famous Slow Counters that hand in a bet at the off when counter is busy and watch the traps break open and if dog doesn't lead they leg it with stake still in their hand.
    It the shop doesn't have a zero tolerance of late bets it leaves itself open to staff ripping them off.

    True time delays on clocks are a rarity and not intentional.

    You have to see it from both sides.

    Solution is simple. Place your bet in plenty of time and no issue will arise..i.e. a mere 20 seconds before the off.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭ abouttobebanned


    What's rubbish? I haven't even told you what I'm referring to and you have deemed it rubbish.

    The fact that you're all saying that the time difference with ladbrokes is not intentional amazes me...none of you seem to understand what I was saying, yet you're still pretty happy to say I'm talking BS.

    I've spoken to the head PR man in ladbrokes and he has said that there is going to be a large scale investigaton into what happened with the lucksin downs races.

    Ladbrokes staff will tell you how many refunds they're told to leave in the system. But that's common in all bookmakers.

    You all must be perfect gamblers, tellling people to make sure they get their bet in in time. The fact is, if ladbrokes give you 60 seconds to place a bet on a cartoon bet, that's what you should be allowed.

    When I approached the manager about the lucksin down issue he gave me the same speel as you guys about it takes a few seconds for the bet to go through etc...that's fine, but completely irrelevant.

    You ask what other little tricks of the trade do ladbrokes employ? I'll tell you but because you all seem to be such bookie sympathisers, i'll probably be wasting my time.

    Here are just a couple for now:

    1. Let's say you're having an online bet - €100 on a horse. After you have that bet you then decide to have another bet... The €100 on that horse is there again which will increase the risk of you placing the bet again by mistake...either in a double with the other bet you wanted to do...or if you thought that you didn't put the bet through properly the first time. Paddy power give you the option of retaining your bet...ladbrokes don't. It retains it whether you like it or not. You'll say...well, punters should be more careful when placing their bets. Yes they should, but it's obvious what ladbrokes are doing here.

    2. In running betting. Not only ladbrokes are guilty of this but they are the worst for it. Let's use golf as an example. A player is 8-1 and hits a great approach an has a birdie chance. Immediately he will shorten. Same 8-1 shot hits the ball in the water... He stays at 8-1 for at least 5 minutes. Im a huge golf betting fan so I see this every weekend.

    3. In running horses. Horse falls or loses 20 lengths at the start? You can still back him at his sp for about 5-10 seconds. The ladbrokes iPhone app and online system doesn't tell you when a horse race has gone "in play". This is a disgraceful practise as someone having a bet deserves to know if the horse they're backing has a fair chance of victory.

    I have more, but am on phone with dying battery.

    This isn't a vendetta against ladbrokes but they get away with far too much IMO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,546 ✭✭✭✭ okidoki987
    Registered User


    Ladbrokes hand picking the winner of the race based on what money is on which horse.

    Not for HR but don't they do that when they occasionally do "money back" a losing trap number?
    Race is over and you wait and wait until about 3 minutes after the race to hear which losing trap number is the money back trap.
    During this time they had checked all the bets going through and know which trap number is the smallest loser for them and low and behold that's their Refunding trap number.
    I've never seen them do the fav in a race!
    Why can't they do what PP do?
    Money Back Losing bets, all traps in a race and they announce it when the race starts and don't wait until the race is over.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,369 ✭✭✭ UnitedIrishman
    Registered User


    What's rubbish? I haven't even told you what I'm referring to and you have deemed it rubbish.

    The fact that you're all saying that the time difference with ladbrokes is not intentional amazes me...none of you seem to understand what I was saying, yet you're still pretty happy to say I'm talking BS.

    I've spoken to the head PR man in ladbrokes and he has said that there is going to be a large scale investigaton into what happened with the lucksin downs races.

    Ladbrokes staff will tell you how many refunds they're told to leave in the system. But that's common in all bookmakers.

    You all must be perfect gamblers, tellling people to make sure they get their bet in in time. The fact is, if ladbrokes give you 60 seconds to place a bet on a cartoon bet, that's what you should be allowed.

    When I approached the manager about the lucksin down issue he gave me the same speel as you guys about it takes a few seconds for the bet to go through etc...that's fine, but completely irrelevant.

    You ask what other little tricks of the trade do ladbrokes employ? I'll tell you but because you all seem to be such bookie sympathisers, i'll probably be wasting my time.

    Here are just a couple for now:

    1. Let's say you're having an online bet - €100 on a horse. After you have that bet you then decide to have another bet... The €100 on that horse is there again which will increase the risk of you placing the bet again by mistake...either in a double with the other bet you wanted to do...or if you thought that you didn't put the bet through properly the first time. Paddy power give you the option of retaining your bet...ladbrokes don't. It retains it whether you like it or not. You'll say...well, punters should be more careful when placing their bets. Yes they should, but it's obvious what ladbrokes are doing here.

    2. In running betting. Not only ladbrokes are guilty of this but they are the worst for it. Let's use golf as an example. A player is 8-1 and hits a great approach an has a birdie chance. Immediately he will shorten. Same 8-1 shot hits the ball in the water... He stays at 8-1 for at least 5 minutes. Im a huge golf betting fan so I see this every weekend.

    3. In running horses. Horse falls or loses 20 lengths at the start? You can still back him at his sp for about 5-10 seconds. The ladbrokes iPhone app and online system doesn't tell you when a horse race has gone "in play". This is a disgraceful practise as someone having a bet deserves to know if the horse they're backing has a fair chance of victory.

    I have more, but am on phone with dying battery.

    This isn't a vendetta against ladbrokes but they get away with far too much IMO.

    I'm not a bookie sympathiser. I've worked in a bookies, but I've also bet for all of my adult life. Believe me, when I worked in one I gave as much to the punter as I could in terms of being a few seconds late after the off or with a price, without getting sacked or a warning - **** it, it's not my money I'm giving them. If I spotted a regular customers bet that was in the system backlog as returned stake, I'd let them know. I know what you're saying about others not doing the same, but if they're betting like that then they should keep their slips and see whats on them at the end of the day or if there's any returned stakes.

    But from my experience of being behind the counter, the majority of customer you describe (running up at last couple seconds) are messers (for want of a better word). Same lads will put down the wrong time on bets because they more than likely don't know what time the race is because they bet on everything or they're trying to screw you over by saying "oh that's for the next race, after this one".

    I understand what your saying RE: a glitch, but I worked there for quite a few years and there was never any issue with the LD offs. And that was in quite a few places where there was last second punters. Now perhaps that could be the reason they've relaxed their stance on staff manually off'ing virtual races, incase these events occured in the future.

    In response to your examples:
    1 - Ladbrokes website is pretty poor on a whole anyways and I've only used it a few times. But yeah that's a pretty stupid setup, totally agree with you there. But like you say, punters should be more careful anyways. And that's what a lot of this thread comes down to - 'be careful, be on time, be correct' - and you'll have no issues. Understandably everyone makes mistakes but if you're going to run around backing everything that moves a) you're going to lose and b) you're going to make more mistakes than the majority. Most cashiers will be sound with you if you're genuine with them.

    2 - That doesn't seem out of the ordinary to me and again it comes down to the punter being attentive. Ok, so the guy gets close to the pin - they've a chance of improving their score, of course their price will drop. If they hit a terrible shot and they stay the same price for a few mins, then back the other guy! You'd be getting the better price on them then.

    3 - Again, I probably agree with you here with regards race being off. But again be attentive, are you backing a race without watching it? Also in running on horses with any bookmaker I've used is disastrous because the prices are all over the shop. Betfair at least is responding to where the volume of money is and therefore is quicker. I know that anywhere I've worked/bet that if a horse falls at the first or a horse fails to start then it's no more bets and no exceptions.

    And the glory in all this is - you don't have to bet with them. Lord knows I've an account with about 5-6 bookmakers. If I got bad service in a restaurant I used once or twice, I wouldn't go back instead of going back regularly and just complaining constantly about the place.

    Also, again this isn't me defending the company blindly because I could come up with a list of my own stuff that annoyed me about them as employers but it's a system I'm familiar with and therefore feel a bit more able to respond.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭ abouttobebanned


    Thanks for the well thought out reply.

    I work in the industry and often write about different bookies etc. I strongly believe that the industry needs to be looked at in the same way that the alcohol one is. Yes people should be attentive and selective with their bets but if they're not, that's not a crime and I do believe that ladbrokes and some others overly take advantage of this. Basically seek to get an extra advantage when one isn't needed.

    Going back to the lucksin downs thing for a sec. Everyone seems to be blaming the punter for coming up late but I don't get that. What of he's in a queue and gets to the teller at 20 secs left and it takes a few seconds to read the bet and then put it through. If the customer receives their docket with 8 seconds to go, they may not know it but their bet is now void.


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