A 250kg deadlift is nothing anymore

the drifter · 07-02-2012 11:51pm #1

kevpants wrote: »

Thought I was reading powerliftingwatch for a second there. Nice to see the "James Hanley mentioned someone... let's get him!"culture is still active in powerlifting even if he isn't.

What's with all the kids who can pull more plates than they have pubes? A 250kg deadlift is nothing anymore.

So kev has a point...where the feck are all these big lifters coming from...a few years back seeing someone pulling 300kg was a big thing... in the past 3 months ive seen more 300kg deadlifts than ive had pizzas.

Is it because powerlifting as a sport has progressed and that there is more lifters willing to chase the dream of a 300kg deadlift.

discuss!

* yes im trying to break away from the IDFPA thread...:p

Nervous Wreck · 08-02-2012 12:13am

You need more pizza, bro.

Silverscott · 08-02-2012 12:14am

There is a lot of juice been used nowdays by the young lads thats for sure.

J-Fit · 08-02-2012 12:31am

the drifter wrote: »

So kev has a point...where the feck are all these big lifters coming from...a few years back seeing someone pulling 300kg was a big thing... in the past 3 months ive seen more 300kg deadlifts than ive had pizzas.

Is it because powerlifting as a sport has progressed and that there is more lifters willing to chase the dream of a 300kg deadlift.

discuss!

* yes im trying to break away from the IDFPA thread...:p

Statistical anomaly. A 250kg pull is a good lift, always will be for guys of a certain size. It only every gives one third of the total picture too so it might be more relevant to focus on actual totals.

If you look at the boy Hickey's lifts, the deadlift is a little out of proportion with the other two. I'd usually expect a max lift back squat to be in excess of 65% of a max lift deadlift. Maybe the other guys are similar, I haven't checked out the results.

Then there is the issue of performance enhancing supplements but this is the IDFPA so maybe not so much a factor. Who knows.

Hanley · 08-02-2012 7:59am

Deadlifts tend to be god given whereas squats and benches are earned in my experience.

What I mean by that is that it's not entirely unusual to see someone pull massive weights with minimal training and terrible technique, but you never see them squat something as comparably impressive without significant time under the bar.

And powerlifting is a three lift sport anyway - I'm more impressed with a rounded lifter than a one trick pony (stallion?).

d'Oracle · 08-02-2012 8:01am

Throw away comment made into a thread.

Maybe the sport is just getting more popular as more gyms with barbells and plates open around the country. Maybe then some of the kids who are better predisposed to pulling big weights are getting exposed to the deadlift and trying their hands in comps.
I can think of 4 off hand.

250 is still a good pull, its far from nothing.

d'Oracle · 08-02-2012 8:05am

Hanley wrote: »

Deadlifts tend to be god given whereas squats and benches are earned in my experience.

What I mean by that is that it's not entirely unusual to see someone pull massive weights with minimal training and terrible technique, but you never see them squat something as comparably impressive without significant time under the bar.

And powerlifting is a three lift sport anyway - I'm more impressed with a rounded lifter than a one trick pony (stallion?).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz37yBT74ck

Hanley · 08-02-2012 8:09am

d'Oracle wrote: »

...and a working link?

Skull · 08-02-2012 9:48am

J-Fit wrote: »

Statistical anomaly. A 250kg pull is a good lift, always will be for guys of a certain size. It only every gives one third of the total picture too so it might be more relevant to focus on actual totals.

If you look at the boy Hickey's lifts, the deadlift is a little out of proportion with the other two. I'd usually expect a max lift back squat to be in excess of 65% of a max lift deadlift. Maybe the other guys are similar, I haven't checked out the results.

Then there is the issue of performance enhancing supplements but this is the IDFPA so maybe not so much a factor. Who knows.

James Hickey only did a token squat and bench in order to qualify for the world champs in France. He was saving himself for the deadlift.

He has squatted 250/260 in competition before and a lot more in the gym for what thats worth.

He doesnt train bench much but has done 170 in competition

J-Fit · 08-02-2012 9:54am

Skull wrote: »

James Hickey only did a token squat and bench in order to qualify for the world champs in France. He was saving himself for the deadlift.

He has squatted 250/260 in competition before and a lot more in the gym for what thats worth.

He doesnt train bench much but has done 170 in competition

Ok, that would explain it. Thanks.

Dathai · 08-02-2012 10:53am

I'd presume a good portion of the lads that are pulling big weights came from a rugby background or played other sports. So they most likely had strong backs, hams and the will to put time into training to pull those numbers.

Skull · 08-02-2012 11:09am

Dathai wrote: »

I'd presume a good portion of the lads that are pulling big weights came from a rugby background or played other sports. So they most likely had strong backs, hams and the will to put time into training to pull those numbers.

Just thinking of the top two or three deadlifters in the IDFPA and that doesnt really apply although I would have thought so too myself.

Then you have lads like Derek Daly and Gavin Crowzier where it would. Those two are very dynamic deadlifters, very fast off the ground.

A rugby background definitely wouldnt hurt in my opinion put it that way.

Dathai · 08-02-2012 11:14am

Some people are just ridiculously strong and are only lifting to shame the rest of us.

daveyc21 · 08-02-2012 11:26am

To be honest I think its to do with the increase in s and c places recently. It moves the goalposts. If you walk into any commercial gym 100kg is a good bench whereas taking ironside as an example you walk in and there are 16/17 year old benching 140 squatting 200 and deadlifting over 240. You might see Wayne doing 140+ cleans at 60kg bodyweight or Sinead going atg on 100+ squats for reps. You think to yourself if everyone in here can do this maybe I can too. Also the guru like programming!!!

Skull · 08-02-2012 11:38am

daveyc21 wrote: »

To be honest I think its to do with the increase in s and c places recently. It moves the goalposts. If you walk into any commercial gym 100kg is a good bench whereas taking ironside as an example you walk in and there are 16/17 year old benching 140 squatting 200 and deadlifting over 240. You might see Wayne doing 140+ cleans at 60kg bodyweight or Sinead going atg on 100+ squats for reps. You think to yourself if everyone in here can do this maybe I can too. Also the guru like programming!!!

Must go up to your place for a look, never been in a s & c place before and always looking to learn. Our training in Gorey would be fairly old school with a few smolov and sheiko routines thrown in so itd be nice to freshen things up a bit.

d'Oracle · 08-02-2012 11:44am

More barbells more deadlifts.
Even in the last 2 years I have seen a big increase in places where there are barbells and plates enough to put on the floor and lift heavy and while there may only be a handful of the likes of RAW, Ironside or whatever places are in the northern wastes, there are a fair few places where you can more than make do.

daveyc21 · 08-02-2012 11:45am

Skull wrote: »

Must go up to your place for a look, never been in a s & c place before and always looking to learn. Our training in Gorey would be fairly old school with a few smolov and sheiko routines thrown in so itd be nice to freshen things up a bit.

Your absolutely welcome. We believe you can learn something from everyone who comes in so our door is always open. drop me a pm when your thinking of popping up and I'll give you some details.

dartstothesea · 08-02-2012 11:48am

Skull wrote: »

He doesnt train bench much but has done 170 in competition

Was he training it a lot at the time he did 170? I just ask because it's a pretty mind bogglingly big bench if you don't train it that much. what would he be doing that helps him, if he's not directly training bench I mean.

squod · 08-02-2012 11:50am

I've always said Irish people (or people generally from up this way, Ireland and the UK) should be to strength sports like Kenyans are to running.

Whether it's diet, genetics, God's will or a combination of all three I dunno.
The more people take an interest in strength sports the more information we'll have like.

We're years behind other nations in terms of access to facilities and coaching, yet we're still pulling world class numbers in PL. I hope folks like Hanley and the couple of people I know up here continue in their good work. Raising awareness of the potential that's in a lot of people on this Island.

J-Fit · 08-02-2012 11:59am

squod wrote: »

I've always said Irish people (or people generally from up this way, Ireland and the UK) should be to strength sports like Kenyans are to running.

Whether it's diet, genetics, God's will or a combination of all three I dunno.
The more people take an interest in strength sports the more information we'll have like.

We're years behind other nations in terms of access to facilities and coaching, yet we're still pulling world class numbers in PL. I hope folks like Hanley and the couple of people I know up here continue in their good work. Raising awareness of the potential that's in a lot of people on this Island.

I agree with you here but I think the Kenyan strength equivalent already exists in eastern Europe. Strength training seems a lot more ingrained in their culture as evidenced by the high proportion of eastern Europeans roaming the gyms nationwide. A proportionately higher number of women too. If only more Irish women deadlifted.....

Skull · 08-02-2012 12:00pm

dartstothesea wrote: »

Was he training it a lot at the time he did 170? I just ask because it's a pretty mind bogglingly big bench if you don't train it that much. what would he be doing that helps him, if he's not directly training bench I mean.

I'd say he could have benched 170 on saturday if he wanted ,he only took the one lift. From what i could gather from his brother he squats twice a week deadlifts once and either benches or does a load of assistance work for arms,shoulders chest etc. He maintains the bench rather than looking to improve it like the other two lifts. I suppose we all favour one lift over the others to some degree.

banshee_bones · 08-02-2012 12:03pm

Hanley wrote: »

Deadlifts tend to be god given whereas squats and benches are earned in my experience.

What I mean by that is that it's not entirely unusual to see someone pull massive weights with minimal training and terrible technique, but you never see them squat something as comparably impressive without significant time under the bar.

Would deffo agree, since I started lifting, my deadlift has always been miles ahead of the other two. You really need to work at squat and bench, or at least I do anyway! :pac:

I would also agree with daveyc that the increase in S&C facilities of late, but I would go so far as to say the exposure to and availability of social networking and youtube etc. (youtube channels like cal strength and sites like mobility wod)
Theres access to so much more information and people can now see the importance of mobility, flexibility and how a good level of conditioning plays an important part of a strength routine.

Hanley · 08-02-2012 12:12pm

squod wrote: »

yet we're still pulling world class numbers in PL.

Outside of a couple of notable exceptions, I really don't think we are.

ray jay · 08-02-2012 12:27pm

When I looked through the results, I was amazed how low the bar was for getting a record. A 152.5kg squat for a 75kg junior is a national record? Even some of the world records look very low compared with efforts like this. It seems like the sport is still small enough that there are plenty of age-weight categories that aren't competitive. Not that I begrudge anyone their hard earned medals!

daveyc21 · 08-02-2012 12:42pm

ray jay wrote: »

When I looked through the results, I was amazed how low the bar was for getting a record. A 152.5kg squat for a 75kg junior is a national record? Even some of the world records look very low compared with efforts like this. It seems like the sport is still small enough that there are plenty of age-weight categories that aren't competitive. Not that I begrudge anyone their hard earned medals!

The records are single lift records so they are not always representative of the best lifts even for that federation.

This is a good 75kg deadlift though!

squod · 08-02-2012 12:43pm

Hanley wrote: »

Outside of a couple of notable exceptions, I really don't think we are.

I don't have data like. All I can can say is that (from what I've seen) a lot of people who have taken a serious interest have done very well.

d'Oracle · 08-02-2012 12:43pm

It is a small sport. In a country of 4 million people.
National records will not necessarily be all that big.
And it may just be the case that 75kg Jnr has not had a lot of lifters in.

I mean one could spend all day comparing between feds.
I'm not sure that Tom Martin has the WR in the IPF anymore either.

ray jay · 08-02-2012 1:55pm

daveyc21 wrote: »

The records are single lift records so they are not always representative of the best lifts even for that federation.

So if you got a record in a single lift competition it will count as its own record even if someone else already lifted more in a full 3 lift event? Pretty silly really.

Hanley · 08-02-2012 2:21pm

squod wrote: »

I don't have data like. All I can can say is that (from what I've seen) a lot of people who have taken a serious interest have done very well.

Have they tho?

Winning medals/breaking records in WDFPF events isn't neceassarily as hard as people may think. Hell even some of the GPC events would be the same.

It's more like the Europa Legue than Champions League tbh. There's lifters/competitors who'd do well in both, but by and large the guys in the WPC and IPF wipe the floor with everyone else.

800ish kg was always a good equipped total at 100kg here in the IDFPA, usually enough to win overall best lifter each year. There's juniors in the IPF doing that at 75kg, and lads at the same weight totalling 1,050 - 1,110kg, if not more.

Scuba Ste · 08-02-2012 2:31pm

ray jay wrote: »

So if you got a record in a single lift competition it will count as its own record even if someone else already lifted more in a full 3 lift event? Pretty silly really.

I'd say it's more to do with reverse. If someone sets a record in a single lift competition, is it really a better lift than one set in a 3 lift competition, particularly if it's the deadlift and you've had 6-8 previous lifts that day. I suppose totals are more important in the latter case anyway.

ray jay · 08-02-2012 2:39pm

Scuba Ste wrote: »

I'd say it's more to do with reverse. If someone sets a record in a single lift competition, is it really a better lift than one set in a 3 lift competition, particularly if it's the deadlift and you've had 6-8 previous lifts that day. I suppose totals are more important in the latter case anyway.

Yeah clearly in that case it's ok, but the way I described it in my previous post, it would be like if someone ran a 9.5s 100m in a decathlon but the stand alone 100m record stayed at 9.58.

d'Oracle · 08-02-2012 2:56pm

ray jay wrote: »

Yeah clearly in that case it's ok, but the way I described it in my previous post, it would be like if someone ran a 9.5s 100m in a decathlon but the stand alone 100m record stayed at 9.58.

Well it wouldn't because on one hand your talking about something that is quite likely to happen, where as the other one is safe to assume will never happen.

kevpants · 08-02-2012 4:18pm

Will all my throwaway comments be made into threads from here on in? I didn't find The Hangover funny. Discuss.

The deadlift clearly suits some people more than others but I'm just amazed at how good these guys are as beginners. Hope they don't become dissolusioned when the gains stop coming so easy. Which they do for everyone.

I always think that smaller guys who are built to deadlift and who pull massive numbers in comparison to their size might be more susceptable to injury too. Tom Martin's a good example, he's a mess now.

the drifter · 08-02-2012 4:33pm

kevpants wrote: »

Will all my throwaway comments be made into threads from here on in? I didn't find The Hangover funny. Discuss.

The deadlift clearly suits some people more than others but I'm just amazed at how good these guys are as beginners. Hope they don't become dissolusioned when the gains stop coming so easy. Which they do for everyone.

I always think that smaller guys who are built to deadlift and who pull massive numbers in comparison to their size might be more susceptable to injury too. Tom Martin's a good example, he's a mess now.

Only when they server as something to keep the kids on the forum from childish bickering...

ray jay · 08-02-2012 4:35pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

Well it wouldn't because on one hand your talking about something that is quite likely to happen, where as the other one is safe to assume will never happen.

Cool pedantry which completely misses the point. You shouldn't be able to claim a record for a weaker lift performed under easier circumstances.

kevpants · 08-02-2012 4:46pm

ray jay wrote: »

Cool pedantry which completely misses the point. You shouldn't be able to claim a record for a weaker lift performed under easier circumstances.

Think of it as a record in that competition. Like a championship record in athletics. It's not necessarily the best lift ever completed but it is in that competition.

Da Za · 08-02-2012 4:48pm

So we're back to the records debate!

Yes there are single lift records and full power records. I don't know why you're getting so caught up on this.

Records are going to be broken time and time again, unless you're in the upper echalon you shouldn't really consider it.

You get into this game to get stronger and stronger, beat your on PR's. Like Hanley has said and I know some top lifters feel the same that they are only thinking about themselves and not what other lifters are doing.

If you're thinking about others and placing, you're in this sport for the wrong reasons.

Slightly off point, I apologise.

d'Oracle · 08-02-2012 5:24pm

ray jay wrote: »

Cool pedantry which completely misses the point. You shouldn't be able to claim a record for a weaker lift performed under easier circumstances.

Its not pedantry, there is nothing overly precise about it.
Your analogy was woeful, there is literally no logical parallel between the two cases.

Tbh I'm struggling to see what your problem is.
A single lifts competition is a different competition with different record books as far as I can see.

Edit: It was however pedantic to point out that you incorrectly used the word Pedantry.

Hanley · 08-02-2012 6:32pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

Its not pedantry, there is nothing overly precise about it.
Your analogy was woeful, there is literally no logical parallel between the two cases.

Tbh I'm struggling to see what your problem is.
A single lifts competition is a different competition with different record books as far as I can see.

Edit: It was however pedantic to point out that you incorrectly used the word Pedantry.

The competition lifts are the same regardless of whether they're done in full power or single lift comps. The former has unfavorable conditions to the latter (squat aside). It makes no sense for a world record done in favorable conditions to be lower than that done in unfavorable conditions for the exact.same.lift.

He makes perfect sense.

d'Oracle · 08-02-2012 9:42pm

Hanley wrote: »

The competition lifts are the same regardless of whether they're done in full power or single lift comps. The former has unfavorable conditions to the latter (squat aside). It makes no sense for a world record done in favorable conditions to be lower than that done in unfavorable conditions for the exact.same.lift.

He makes perfect sense.

Let me just lay this out so we are all on the same page.
We are too accept that there is a parallel between:

1) someone setting a record in either bench or deadlift as a single lift as distinct from performing one in a full powerlifting competition where the three lifts are performed

and

2) Setting a record in 100m alone as distinct from performing one in a competition which involves,
100m, Long Jump, Shot put, High Jump, 400m, 110m Hurdles, Discus, Pole Vault, Javelin and 1500m?

You have driven the car off the cliff you find at the end of applicability. This is not mathematics. If you run a 9.5sec 100m you are not a decathlete and if you are a decathlete you don't set records in individual events. If you are a powerlifter, you might just set records in full total events and single lifts.

I know you love to contradict folks and especially folks who don't pander to yourself, but this is beyond mental. There is no comparison, one side is unfavorable conditions the other is different sports.

Also, as I said, as far as I can see, single lift and full power have separate record books where I have looked (WDFPF and IPF)

the drifter · 08-02-2012 10:14pm

Lads/Ladies/Elite Athletes attack the post not the poster please.

Hanley · 08-02-2012 10:26pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

Let me just lay this out so we are all on the same page.
We are too accept that there is a parallel between:

1) someone setting a record in either bench or deadlift as a single lift as distinct from performing one in a full powerlifting competition where the three lifts are performed

and

2) Setting a record in 100m alone as distinct from performing one in a competition which involves,
100m, Long Jump, Shot put, High Jump, 400m, 110m Hurdles, Discus, Pole Vault, Javelin and 1500m?

You have driven the car off the cliff you find at the end of applicability. This is not mathematics. If you run a 9.5sec 100m you are not a decathlete and if you are a decathlete you don't set records in individual events. If you are a powerlifter, you might just set records in full total events and single lifts.

I know you love to contradict folks and especially folks who don't pander to yourself, but this is beyond mental. There is no comparison, one side is unfavorable conditions the other is different sports.

Also, as I said, as far as I can see, single lift and full power have separate record books where I have looked (WDFPF and IPF)

Total politician's answer. You haven't actually addressed the point, just the analogy. Little digs aside, I'm still waiting to hear a definition of how a "world record" in an event can be lower than the highest weight ever lifted in the same event done under unfavorable conditions.

dartstothesea · 08-02-2012 10:48pm

It just can be, isn't that the way the fed's rules around setting the records works. You can still call it a record in the more general sense - the sense that it's the highest of it's kind.
I don't think anyone's claiming it makes sense that the bigger lift done under unfavourable conditions couldn't be the record. It's just the rules they have. I mean, you may as well be giving out that a potential biggest lift ever of all time at the IDFPAs there might not have been a record if the lifter wasn't a member of the fed. Or you could start just looking at the biggest lift across a number of feds and thinking of it as the only true record. It all depends what arbitrary divisions between comps you're willing to subscribe to.

dartstothesea · 08-02-2012 10:53pm

Being in a lighter weight class is probably an unfavourable condition for deadlifts too. I suppose the 110kg winner shouldn't get his medal if a 90kg lifter out-pulled him. I'm not really even being sarcastic there, it makes plenty of sense but I know that's just not the way the fed's rules work. And I know hardly anything at all about the sport.

Hanley · 08-02-2012 10:55pm

dartstothesea wrote: »

It just can be, isn't that the way the fed's rules around setting the records works. You can still call it a record in the more general sense - the sense that it's the highest of it's kind.
I don't think anyone's claiming it makes sense that the bigger lift done under unfavourable conditions couldn't be the record. It's just the rules they have. I mean, you may as well be giving out that a potential biggest lift ever of all time at the IDFPAs there might not have been a record if the lifter wasn't a member of the fed. Or you could start just looking at the biggest lift across a number of feds and thinking of it as the only true record. It all depends what arbitrary divisions between comps you're willing to subscribe to.

When someone says "world record" in ANY other normal sport, what do you think?! Something about best ever, maybe?!

But in powerlifting every "world" record is hyper qualified. It's bull****.

Hanley · 08-02-2012 10:59pm

dartstothesea wrote: »

Being in a lighter weight class is probably an unfavourable condition for deadlifts too. I suppose the 110kg winner shouldn't get his medal if a 90kg lifter out-pulled him. I'm not really even being sarcastic there, it makes plenty of sense but I know that's just not the way the fed's rules work. And I know hardly anything at all about the sport.

Wow. Just wow

dartstothesea · 08-02-2012 11:02pm

If you're amazed at something I didn't know about the rules of the sport, you know, I did mention something about that and all. I don't pride myself on knowing this so it's grand.

Hanley · 08-02-2012 11:06pm

dartstothesea wrote: »

If you're amazed at something I didn't know about the rules of the sport, you know, I did mention something about that and all. I don't pride myself on knowing this so it's grand.

I actually genuninely have no idea how to answer you on the 90 v 110 DL scenario.

I think I'll go over to the athletics forum and tell them that whoever runs the fastest time in the heats/qualifiers for next sunmer's 100m sprint should get gold even if not done in the final since that's clearly the best time.

Feisar · 08-02-2012 11:09pm

It's the same gig in boxing. Champ/Super Champ/Interim Champ and all the different organisations. I'm sure other sports suffer from the same affliction.

dartstothesea · 08-02-2012 11:10pm

Hanley wrote: »

I actually genuninely have no idea how to answer you on the 90 v 110 DL scenario.

I think I'll go over to the athletics forum and tell them that whoever runs the fastest time in the heats/qualifiers for next sunmer's 100m sprint should get gold even if not done in the final since that's clearly the best time.

So I think you see my point then. The division of competition is there for a reason. It's obvious you'll disagree but I see the 90kg v 110kg issue as analgous to the Full lifts v Single lift thing.

Hanley · 08-02-2012 11:17pm

dartstothesea wrote: »

So I think you see my point then. The division of competition is there for a reason. It's obvious you'll disagree but I see the 90kg v 110kg issue as analgous to the Full lifts v Single lift thing.

And that's exactly why there's a bodyweight coefficient for overall best lifter. So the best guy wins overall (the true "world record" in this scenario)?

A 250kg deadlift is nothing anymore

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