Taoiseach speech in Davros

Going Forward wrote: »

The choice isn't great to start with, hence the cabal of over paid advisers to actually mentor them on how to do their jobs.

There blind leading the blind springs to mind here considering the decisions coming out of govt at times.

Going Forward wrote: »

Facilitated by a lack regulation, banks (they're the financial experts with access to personal credit ratings records. etc) KNEW that certain people didn't have a hope of paying back these loans, but they turned a blind eye and doshed out the cash in favour of short term gains.

Obviously the banks shouldn't have handed out a lot of this money. But when I went into the bank and they offered me money for a house that with the slightest downturn I couldn't afford I turned them down. Basic maths skills are all that are required. As an adult I am responsible for my actions.

meglome wrote: »

Obviously the banks shouldn't have handed out a lot of this money. But when I went into the bank and they offered me money for a house that with the slightest downturn I couldn't afford I turned them down. Basic maths skills are all that are required. As an adult I am responsible for my actions.

Yes, you can believe nobody. My local F.G. candidate in the last election asked me to vote for F.G. for jobs and to stop F.F. paying into Anglo Irish Bank.

Going Forward wrote: »

Ergo, so is the bank manager, bond holder, regulator etc etc.:)

So I assume you think McDonalds are to blame for fat people? Lot's of things are offered to people that might be foolish, illegal, bad for them etc and it's up to the individual to choose the best course. If the individual make an obviously bad choice it's their own fault.

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes, you can believe nobody. My local F.G. candidate in the last election asked me to vote for F.G. for jobs and to stop F.F. paying into Anglo Irish Bank.

I can't understand why people take election promises like they're a signed contract. Honestly it would be far worse if a government had to carry out election promises even when the situation has changed and they no longer makes sense. I expect the government to make the best decisions at the time, sure they often won't but then we should be electing better people. Or at the very least understanding that even if you disagree what just means you disagree.

Going Forward wrote: »

In theory.

In practice, I haven't seen evidence of any of them either accepting or admitting responsibility for "their" mistakes.

Neither are a lot of other people - all that's happening is that they're living with the consequences. The problem is that very few people did anything illegal, but a lot of people did things that were stupid - and stupidity's outcomes know no equity.

cordially,
Scofflaw

You live in a democracy, get over it.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

50% of us didn't. You're making the same error that Kenny did.

I think at this stage they should take out the ballot papers and double the taxes on those who subscribed to the bubble while letting those of us who didn't engage, vote or approve get on with our lives.

Blaming everyone or the country as a whole is a lazy unethical cop-out designed to spread the punishment, protecting those who screwed everything up.

I'm to blame and have to pay by virtue of living in the same country as the con-men ? Sickening!

Okay this has been had out with you many times. Obviously we didn't all vote for FF but my point is the vast majority tacitly supported their policies or gained from them (at the time) in many different ways.

I would take this back to the hammering FG got in the 2002 election for suggesting spending restraint, this to me is one of major points when it all when wrong. It taught political parties that offering restraint was a bad idea, even if in reality it was a good idea. We as a society got greedy. In the 90's we worked hard to get where we were but by the 2000's many were looking for fast easy ways to make money, enter a property bubble.

All through the 2000's the majority paid less and less tax but spending and public sector employment went up and up. We had huge increases in social welfare and public sector pay and a large decrease in our competitiveness as a country. There was little objection to this from anyone.

Over the 2000's a number of taxes and charges were proposed, sustainable ones, such as property, water and bins. These brought a widespread public outcry and still do proving we haven't learned a damn thing about the need for sustainable taxes.

I could go on. Bottom line is I've seen nothing that shows me as a society we didn't get exactly what we asked for.

Gladly, I am not one of those people who did actually ''mad borrowing'' during the boom years. I am one of those people that did not ever borrow one red cent from a bank.

The awful pressure we had during the boom years is now being spread over to hit our economy and the punishment of us going ''mad'' is that we have now the IMF watching our every move, even though every move so far has been so far, so good. We have high unemployment which will take years to get through, we have a, soon to be finished, over bloated public service, charges that would go through the roof and which will go higher in the short term and once again we have emigration back to haunt us again.

To tell you the truth, it is a feeling that would make you lose your confidence quite quickly IMO. But, we Irish don't want to be treated in the notion of being ''mad'' anymore. It is a lie that should stay away from on.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And yet you still repeat the falsehood, and now you're adding to it to accuse those of us who didn't vote FF of "tacitly supporting their policies" ?

Can you show me a source for this claim that "the vast majority" did the above ?

Because otherwise you are just making stuff up in order to lay blame where it doesn't belong, and I'm sick to death of FF & others doing that at this stage.

The obvious problem here Liam is getting actual figures for many of these things. But there are just so many things that can be brought up regarding where and how things went wrong. I listed off a few but there are many more. It boggles the mind to believe that a very large majority didn't support a lot of those things. Simply looking at the spend spend spend policies from all political parties from after the 2002 election to 2008 will tell you this. The FF vote went up 0.1% in 2007. There were 2,085,245 first preferences votes in that election, how many voted for spending restraint?

Did you protest about the introduction of sustainable taxes before the bust?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So ?

It boggles the mind that our Taoseach told people warning that they'd be better off committing suicide

It boggles the mind that a little-used, practically unknown and septic con-bank blatantly broke rules and got out of control

It boggles the mind that Bertie's mate installed as Financial Regulator did SFA

It boggles the mind that FF put in a disasterous guarantee backed up by a clandestine and unaccountable setup called NAMA to prevent prices reaching market levels

It boggles the mind that the same NAMA pays rent and wages to people who owe it money.

All those boggles are true, and yet you choose to dismiss the only one that applies to ordinary people like myself ?

I'm advocating personal responsibility so I'm not sure what point you're making above. It doesn't look like Bertie is going to take any personal responsibility, but then again he's not alone there.

So did you protest about the introduction of sustainable taxes before the bust?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's the second time you've asked that. I haven't "protested" at the current sickening actions, so don't go reading into the answer of "no".

I did raise an eyebrow and ask questions about it, and I also acknowledged the fact that the claims about Ireland being "low tax" are farcical considering all the stealth taxes and paid-for services.

For example, taxes may (apparently) have gone down, but the money still went out of households to pay for water schemes and bin charges, not to mention tolls and school contributions and lots of other "apparent" reductions.

So a glib latch onto that aspect is just showboating and point-scoring, tbh.

And I have no idea why you are so forgiving re Ahern's responsibilities.

I am responsible for my actions, and I'll honour my choices. Everyone else should be responsible for theirs; you claim you want the former but are excusing the latter.

I asked did you protest about the introduction of sustainable taxes before the bust. Many people did and I'm pretty confident many are still protesting, no point in learning anything. You answered something else, then again you've been pretty selective on answering the points I raised anyway.

For the majority in this country it was low tax, even with other charges. Ireland, even now, has never been a more equal society. I've travelled all over the world and I can assure you we have it easy, even now. The average person in India pays more property tax than we do.

And I'm not forgiving of Ahern, genuinely I'd be worried I'd punch the smug asshole in the face if I met him again. However I also realise that he was elected top of the poll even after his shenanigans were made public. You get the government you deserve.

I expect everyone to take responsibility for their actions but I realise that isn't going to happen. The irony being the majority of people screaming about the banks and the government refuse to take any personal responsibility either.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

T
My point is blatantly clear......all of the items listed above "boggle the mind", and yet they all happened. They are all true.

Therefore you "backing up" your claim re the one item that you don't want to accept as the truth because it, too, boggles the mind, is a falsehood; something which boggles the mind does not indicate that it is false, which was your theory and the whole basis of your argument.

I know they all happened, that's not what gets me. What boggles my mind is people really have learned very little about why they happened. Yeah the bankers did it all, nothing else to see here move along. :rolleyes: