Taoiseach speech in Davros

femur61

The Taoiseach has said in Davos the problem with our economy was that people went mad borrowing in a system that spawned greed, went out of control and led to the crash. What do people think of his statement? I for one do agree with it, he is getting a lot of flack about it but personally I think he spole the truth.

Cookie_Monster

A system that the government encouraged though (and the opposition was happy not to comment on either)

bcmf

Funny how he didnt mention how the banks were giving out money to the 'greedy' while turning a seemingly blind eye to repayment capacity or if interest rates started to rise?
For him to blame the 'greed' of the people ,to me anyway, shows what little grasp he has of the situation and I fear nothing will change.

zootroid

What he said is not incorrect, some people did get greedy and borrow too much, but there are plenty others I would blame first before blaming people for wanting to buy a house

1. The government (Fianna Fail / PD's)
2. The banks
3. The central bank / financial regulator
4. Property developers / land owners

Chucky the tree

The banks didn't put a gun to peoples heads. People could have said no, but they didn't. I don't blame people smoking cigarettes on the shops that sell them, and most people here don't either so I don't really see any difference.

Icepick

zootroid wrote: »

What he said is not incorrect, some people did get greedy and borrow too much, but there are plenty others I would blame first before blaming people for wanting to buy a house

1. The government (Fianna Fail / PD's)
2. The banks
3. The central bank / financial regulator
4. Property developers / land owners

Well, those four were also greedy, just on a larger scale.

Rigsy

The banks didn't put a gun to peoples heads. People could have said no, but they didn't. I don't blame people smoking cigarettes on the shops that sell them, and most people here don't either so I don't really see any difference.

Mightn't have put a gun to people's heads but a government fuelling the panic of property price increases led a lot of us not knowing where it was going to end, how high the prices were going to go.

End result, felt we had to get on the ladder. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

antoobrien

femur61 wrote: »

The Taoiseach has said in Davos the problem with our economy was that people went mad borrowing in a system that spawned greed, went out of control and led to the crash. What do people think of his statement? I for one do agree with it, he is getting a lot of flack about it but personally I think he spole the truth.

He's right, it's not the only reason but it is the primary reason.

There was no one person or step that could have stopped it all but the bottom line is that if people weren't willing to pay the prices being asked the bubble wouldn't have kept expanding.

stackerman

bcmf wrote: »

Funny how he didnt mention how the banks were giving out money to the 'greedy' while turning a seemingly blind eye to repayment capacity or if interest rates started to rise?
e.

As did the European Banks who lent to the Irish ones.
All happy to take huge profits, lending without DDD.
Why bother, when the Tax payer will bail them out ! Not exactly capitalism, is it ?

Point being, each of us should take the blame for our own borrowings and lending. If you got it right, good for you, if not . . . .
Should the tax payer come riding on a White horse

Damien360

Although what he stated is true, it was a minority that went very, very deep in debt and brought the country to it's knees. I asm thinking of the anglo 12 for starters. The people who bought for 400,000 plus were very wrong but not on the same scale as those who wasted millions/billions.

Chucky the tree

Rigsy wrote: »

Mightn't have put a gun to people's heads but a government fuelling the panic of property price increases led a lot of us not knowing where it was going to end, how high the prices were going to go.

End result, felt we had to get on the ladder. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

So is common sense. Anyone who felt they "had" to get on the ladder clearly lacked it.

coolshannagh28

Peoples willingness to borrow is only curbed by lenders prudence and proper oversight, as evidenced by every bubble in history worldwide .
The reason we elect governments is to provide regulation and balance we lost this for a decade with inevitable results , chaos
Ends seems to have gone AWOL over there parroting his lines like a good German .

sideswipe

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The banks didn't put a gun to peoples heads. People could have said no, but they didn't. I don't blame people smoking cigarettes on the shops that sell them, and most people here don't either so I don't really see any difference.

Nobody was forced into debt, but Enda's word's are a bit like salt in a wound. There are plenty of people who screwed this country. He comes on our screen's for his very grand 'address to the nation' and tells me it's not our fault, then Fecks off to Europe and tells them it was our fault coz we're greedy bastards.............. It's a little hard to swallow IMO

Liam Byrne

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Peoples willingness to borrow is only curbed by lenders prudence and proper oversight, as evidenced by every bubble in history worldwide .
The reason we elect governments is to provide regulation and balance we lost this for a decade with inevitable results , chaos
Ends seems to have gone AWOL over there parroting his lines like a good German .

Actually my willingness to borrow was curbed by my own cop-on when the lender offered twice what I had said I could pay back.

So Kenny spouting ****e and blaming me means he's - well, let's just say that if I used the word I'm feeling that I'd get an infraction.

Clueless, hypocritical and 100% incorrect partially sums it up, and I'd love to sue the guy for slander for suggesting that I had any hand, act or part in the mess.

Ironically if we started to point fingers at politicians and their incompetence and decison-making, Kenny would be the first to point out that they weren't the ones making those decisions.

Well he can't have it both ways and he can forget about any future votes from me - if the option were there - even if it cost me money - I'd publically revoke my vote.

Liam Byrne

zootroid wrote: »

What he said is not incorrect, some people did get greedy and borrow too much, but there are plenty others I would blame first before blaming people for wanting to buy a house

1. The government (Fianna Fail / PD's)
2. The banks
3. The central bank / financial regulator
4. Property developers / land owners

He neglected to say "some".

Benito

This seems to be turning into a mantra of late. Enda gives an interview in Davos stating that people got greedy and that this was the cause of our present financial problems.

He said this to, for want of a better term, foreigners! What he said to us natives in December was somewhat different, was it not?

You might agree with him now but, why did he day what he said to us then. Who posted on forums then disagreeing with him?

On politics.ie, FG posters are positively rancid in spinning this mantra and they are not very polite over there. Whether he meant this or not, it is now gospel truth and so mirrors what the last Government held as the reason, aside from Lehmann Bro.

Why do supporters of one party show such hypocrisy that they so decried when in opposition?

I do not agree with the mantra.

Sully

Well, he is right. As much as we hate it, a lot of the situation we are in right now many of us got ourselves into. Not all, but a lot. There was that and reckless government spending and attitudes. He was being frank, but it just looks stupid because he said the opposite already.

Benito

Sully wrote: »

Well, he is right. As much as we hate it, a lot of the situation we are in right now many of us got ourselves into. Not all, but a lot. There was that and reckless government spending and attitudes. He was being frank, but it just looks stupid because he said the opposite already.

OK. My eldest brother was the first to by a house. Engaged, he and my sister in law got their mortgage before their wedding. He was 27. They raised a family. Mid to late 20's, maybe early 30's is the norm. 1976.

During the bubble what were professional couples like these to do? Cast a cold eye on the dangers of taking on too big a mortgage and decide to put off having a home of their own, let alone raising a family?

They should have the foresight to see this when everyone was screaming, spend, borrow, the good times are here!

Should they have put off having kids for a decade or more?

Buying a house and having children is what most people, professional or not did in the boom.

They had options?

eigrod

The Independent are hammering him on the front page tomorrow because he addressed us all in December telling us that we weren't to blame and now he's saying we are.

dahamsta

zootroid wrote: »

What he said is not incorrect, some people did get greedy and borrow too much, but there are plenty others I would blame first before blaming people for wanting to buy a house

1. The government (Fianna Fail / PD's)
2. The banks
3. The central bank / financial regulator
4. Property developers / land owners

5. The Useless Opposition.

Remind me, who was in opposition at the time again? It's on the tip of my tongue...

the groutch

Edna throwing out a rehash of the FF line "We all partied"

Going Forward

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So is common sense. Anyone who felt they "had" to get on the ladder clearly lacked it.

The "Lenders" also obviously threw all previously accepted (and subsequently proven) lending criteria out the window by offering all and sundry easy loans.

Remember "sub prime" lending? The loan offer letters sent by GE Money unsolicited? The constant Permanent TSB TV ads with the mafia guy?

They were and are the "professionals" in the equation, and they clearly may not have been acting professionally in their past conduct- hence their current correct/strict/new lending criteria- which is pretty close to how things used to be and should have been.

Mind you, they seemed to have been very "professional" in their persuading the previous finance minister to adopt the blanket bank guarantee to cover themselves.

As for Kenny's speech, what little I've heard of it, he seems to be retracting that it is "not your fault", when he's in different company.

Seems to have forgotten that he was in the opposition, who didnt exactly call for the brakes to be put on either, someone may correct me on that if I am wrong.

murphaph

Rigsy wrote: »

Mightn't have put a gun to people's heads but a government fuelling the panic of property price increases led a lot of us not knowing where it was going to end, how high the prices were going to go.

End result, felt we had to get on the ladder. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It was very obvious to me by the mid 2000s at the latest that it was going to end in a burst bubble, just as it has (time and time again) in many other western nations with high home ownership levels. It always bursts, and starts again.

murphaph

the groutch wrote: »

Edna throwing out a rehash of the FF line "We all partied"

Ah look, can you honestly say you didn't pay over the odds for pints of a weekend? Or say "feck it" and fork over €15 for a Dominos pizza? Or €4 for a coffee etc? I would say I was fairly restrained but I wouldn't say I was a saint. I certainly went for pints with the lads in town and blew €100 of a night no problem. I couldn't imagine doing that now, but such small actions all fueled the boom and drove prices up, not just buying property directly.

Our politicians and banks and regulators failed us miserably, but we (not you Liam, before you hit the keyboard!) as a people mostly did participate to a greater or lesser degree in wasting money in some shape or form. If we can't recognise our mistakes, we are doomed to repeat them!

dsmythy

zootroid wrote: »

What he said is not incorrect, some people did get greedy and borrow too much, but there are plenty others I would blame first before blaming people for wanting to buy a house

1. The government (Fianna Fail / PD's)
2. The banks
3. The central bank / financial regulator
4. Property developers / land owners

He said "people" 1,2,3,4 are all classed as people. Just about maybe for some of them

Seth Brundle

Dec 2011:
"Let me say this to you all: You are not responsible for the crisis."

Jan 2012:
"What happened in our country was that people simply went mad borrowing"

Look, the country re-elected these same politicians who presided over these insane banking practices and not only that, but actively threw fuel on the fire with tax breaks etc. The public did this because we were bought off. Bought off through massive government spending, and we wanted more and more and more.


So, who are these people that didn't benefit short-term from government policies? It's easy to lay blame, but we might want to look at ourselves first.




Oh and before anyone bothers insinuating - no, I have never voted FF. Not that it matters.

Bullseye1

kbannon wrote: »

Dec 2011:
"Let me say this to you all: You are not responsible for the crisis."

Jan 2012:
"What happened in our country was that people simply went mad borrowing"

I haven't seen the latest interview. Did he say "some people" or "everyone"? If he said some people I don't see a problem even a significant number of people but everyone would be stretching it.

Seth Brundle

My quotes are from the Irish Times and to my knowledge are direct quotes.
Anyhow, does it matter? In Dec he told us all that we weren't at fault. Now some of us are. It's only a matter of time till all of us are at fault!

Bullseye1

I'm sure you know of people who decided that they would buy 2-3 extra houses for their pension. You know in collage towns where they thought they were guaranteed rent. And the people who borrowed for wedding which cost €25,000-€50,000. And the people who borrowed to go on exotic holidays. Hell there is even talk of people heading to the credit union to pay for trips to Poland for the Euros. It's hardly a culture of restraint and good money management.

dsmythy

Oh the spinning machine is a running

eigrod wrote: »

The Independent are hammering him on the front page tomorrow because he addressed us all in December telling us that we weren't to blame and now he's saying we are.

Except he didn't. Unless he whispered your name under his breath or something.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

He neglected to say "some".

Nor did he say everyone. Or the whole country. Or anything. He made a true statement that people went mad borrowing. That includes evil bankers and doesn't include those who didn't.

People just look to have a go twisting words.

paddyandy

Enda was correct and there was two to blame the borrowers and the lenders . Bertie was ignoring warnings too... so a trio ?

Wider Road

kbannon wrote: »

Dec 2011:
"Let me say this to you all: You are not responsible for the crisis."

Jan 2012:
"What happened in our country was that people simply went mad borrowing"

I wonder which of the above does Enda himself believe?
Both can't be true, so which is it?
Gilmore will be a crucial figure over the next couple of weeks.

loldog

Well it's no mystery, the crowd at Davos know well it was just an ordinary traditional property bubble.

The problem with the Taoiseach's analysis though is that everybody, not just those who "went mad" will be forced to bear the burden of the collapse, which is unjust and may have serious societal consequences further down the road.

.

quietriot

His only significant mistake was that he neglected to say some, and seemed to blame everyone for the acts of what will certainly be the few.

The fact that this statement will cause outrage amongst the plebs is more proof, if ever needed, that we've a significant amount of people living in denial, refusing to accept personal responsibility or outright lying over the state we now find ourselves in.

I've found it very hard to find two things in this country in the last few years:
A: People who will admit to having voted for Fianna Fail. I've said elsewhere, nobody seems to have voted for them! Just like George Bush Jnr. I know some people who absolutely voted for him, yet will get quite aggressive in denying it now.

B: People who will admit to having borrowed stupidly, and that they shouldn't have done it. I know plenty of people in negative equity with huge mortgages on tiny apartments and houses that nobody with a bit of sense would have purchased, yet they did in the rush to "own" a property or two, and are now struggling to pay their mortgages and live life. People burdened down with €50k+ personal loan debt that they're struggling to pay. Yet, I find, these people blame the government for the situation they're in and don't see that they've only themselves to blame. They'll happily point the finger at the banks, developers and Government while acting like they'd no part in any of it. Some of the same people, when asked why they bought such properties for such stupid money, when it was obvious they weren't worth anything near it, get aggressive and spout nonsense like "WELL I HAD TO PUT A ROOF OVER MY HEAD DIDN'T I? YOU'D PREFER I WAS HOMELESS HUH!?". The very same gob****es who were spouting that rent was dead money and advising me to buy a property when I just finished the leaving cert. You can only laugh.

There is this push to refuse any personal responsibility in what has went down in this country and as opposed to saying "yeah, I ****ed up", they're calling for the heads of the developers and banks who were, at the end of the day, supplying in reaction to the demand for credit and property.

The banks and their handling was stupid down to the bank retail staff being commissioned and given bonuses for handing out credit wherever they could, in a deregulated environment that was left hanging on a needle point and would topple at the slightest push. However, nobody forced people to take out loans. Nobody.

In fact, they forced themselves or they were "peer pressured" into it. They saw others doing it and went crazy pursuing credit to get what they saw other people getting - an extremely expensive 1 bed apartment in...stepaside!A bmw that was twice the price of those a hop and skip across the water!etc etc.

At the end of the day, some people were absolute fools with their personal finances and the country is now in a terrible state as a result. Yes, there was an overall culture of greed, and the banks and developers went mad trying to make money off this push amongst the plebs for fancy property and cheap credit, however the demand was driven by the consumer and nobody else.

Kenny was right in what he said except that he made it appear that everyone was in on it. Although, in hindsight, if he'd said "some", it would give the same morons with negative equity and debt they can't afford a reason to turn around and say "Yeah! Those bastards ruined the country! Thank God I wasn't one of them! My ridiculous spending was justified! I hope those greedy people going mad on credit get ****ed!". Mind you, from reading boards today, that already appears to be happening.

stackerman

For those of you that are saying "It was obvious that there was a bubble building etc etc" . . . . .

Fair play to you and well done. You had the courage of your convictions to not borrow, upgrade your home, move house, give your kids extra things, go on that holiday, change your car, save instead of spend etc etc
Right ?

In fact surely if you knew that there was a crash coming, you must have prepared yourself accordingly. You must have sold your home (if you had one) at the peak, saved your money, and now have cash to buy on the dip, right ??

Of coarse it was a crazy situation !
FYI I was advising young guys in my football club NOT to buy. Wait for the crash and try to buy then. BUT I warned them that they prob would not be able to borrow the money once we got to that place.

And to those smart arses going on about people who bought second houses as pensions. (I didn't FYI). I know a lot of my friends who were (note were) self employed and did just that. Why ? They were trying to take responsibility for their future, not expecting the Tax payer to look after them. S£*t the tax payer cant even do anything for them now, having been self employed. We all know that Pensions are a bloody joke in this country, unless of coarse your lucky enough to be public. Most bloody worthless, and the gov have been happy to sit back and let the companies rip us all off. That is most of the reason, SO many went out and bought a second property. Again, where was the gov regulation to protect the tax payer ?? So we are all at fault (I'll put my hand up and say I was, partly) but the Irish gov and the Banks were BY FAR more responsible. Due to the COMPLETE lack of regulation and care of it's people.
It's the one thing about Ireland now that drives me crazy, we are now a country of armchair economists ! And there are those on their high horses, whom I suspect, are not all that white :rolleyes:

Dempo1

O Edna, Edna, sorry, Enda & you were doing so well.

He looked like a Muppet, sounded like a Muppet and behaved like a Muppet, I cringed at his performance and speech. Seems to me that he is loosing the run of himself with his apparent positive world status.

RichardAnd

What he's attempting to do, I believe, is imbue a manner of collective guilt into the populace so that it is easier for them to accept austerity. Unfortunately, what this venal bucolic that we call our leader fails to recognise with that remark, is that a great many of us did not behave in a thrifty manner.

EDIT: Let me just say that I'm not trying to hold myself up as financially astute, I simply was too young to get caught up in the book spending spree. However, I still manage my money well and I take offence at such generalisations.

quietriot

stackerman wrote: »

For those of you that are saying "It was obvious that there was a bubble building etc etc" . . . . .

Fair play to you and well done. You had the courage of your convictions to not borrow, upgrade your home, move house, give your kids extra things, go on that holiday, change your car, save instead of spend etc etc
Right ?

You can do a lot of those things without overextending yourself with debt and for quite a fortunate few, those could easily be done on the inflated salaries they received.

However, the big issue is that many overextended themselves with debt, probably to keep up with the spending of those who'd found their salaries rapidly increasing.

Personal spending wasn't the issue, we all have disposable income. Managing one's personal finances is a matter of self-control and just because someone goes "Want a credit card with €20k approved? It'll be niiice!", doesn't mean you should grab at it and then spend every cent of it, which is what we saw a significant amount of people do.

In fact surely if you knew that there was a crash coming, you must have prepared yourself accordingly. You must have sold your home (if you had one) at the peak, saved your money, and now have cash to buy on the dip, right ??

This is a weak argument. If someone had a home that they presumably bought pre-peak and could happily afford, that they were comfortable in and called "home" to their family, why would they take a gamble, sell it and go rent somewhere in the hope of making a few quid when they know they'll have it securely as their home forever?

David McWilliams, along with many others, were screaming that it was just a bubble and not to get caught up in it for quite some time before it all fell apart. Even in his 2006 production "In Search of the Pope's Children" he warned that everything was completely unsustainable and that we were in for trouble if we kept going down the path we'd chosen...and it happened.

People got caught up in the cheap credit and crazy spending lifestyle, they didn't want to listen to "killjoys" telling them not to indulge. That doesn't mean that those who did listen and took a more reasoned approach should have then went and speculated on their own home when they didn't actually need to.

Of coarse it was a crazy situation !

Not really, a bubble is a bubble.

FYI I was advising young guys in my football club NOT to buy. Wait for the crash and try to buy then. BUT I warned them that they prob would not be able to borrow the money once we got to that place.

Taking what you said above, then surely you've a massive stash of money available to invest in all the cheap property now that the market is starting to look like it's bottoming out? Because if I knew such a massive crash was coming, I'd have my money ready to purchase up all the cheap land and property knowing that I'd make a mint when things level off in a decade or two.

And to those smart arses going on about people who bought second houses as pensions. (I didn't FYI).

Sure you've kept all your spare dosh for snapping up the cheap property now haven't you?! Or else how could you let such accurate forecasting skills go to waste?! What is next, oh wise one, for the Irish economy? Or do your palms need to be crossed with silver first?

I know a lot of my friends who were (note were) self employed and did just that. Why ? They were trying to take responsibility for their future, not expecting the Tax payer to look after them. S£*t the tax payer cant even do anything for them now, having been self employed.

Yes well we all know the situation with self-employed people and their lack of entitlements is a joke. I know self-employed people who similarly sank quite a lot of money into what were regarded as safe investments, as a pension fund, only for it all to disappear. It's really unfortunate.

Most bloody worthless, and the gov have been happy to sit back and let the companies rip us all off.

The government are supposed to set the price of goods and services now? Or interfere in the market in such an active way?

I'm glad the Government had nothing to do with the pricing strategy of private companies. Relieved even.

That is most of the reason, SO many went out and bought a second property. Again, where was the gov regulation to protect the tax payer ??

Protect the taxpayer against what? Themselves?

So we are all at fault (I'll put my hand up and say I was, partly)

I'm not, I wasn't in a position to be during the good years.

but the Irish gov and the Banks were BY FAR more responsible. Due to the COMPLETE lack of regulation and care of it's people.

Are you saying that the Government should expect people to be incapable of controlling themselves financially and actively interfere with the financial lives and budgeting of individuals now?

On the one hand, we've a load of people raving over their freedoms being infringed upon now and how the government are fascists, while on the other we have people crying out "WHY GOVERNMENT?! WHY COULDN'T YOU STOP US BORROWING MONEY AND SPENDING IT ALL?!WWHHYYY!?".

It's up to the individual to control themselves and take the options they can afford. Banks and developers were only acting to provide the supply of property and credit that a proportion of a nation of greedy, careless people were indulging upon, nay, demanding that they receive.

Now the **** has hit the fan and people are going mad over not being able to get credit?! You couldn't make it up.

It's the one thing about Ireland now that drives me crazy, we are now a country of armchair economists ! And there are those on their high horses, whom I suspect, are not all that white :rolleyes:

So, er, non-whites shouldn't have input?

stackerman

Quietriot

Im glad you took the time to post, you see we agree on most of the above, if you read it again. The point I was trying to make is that most, flip, flop between both arguments depending on who they are talking to and in what context. But FEW accept responsibility for their own actions, and that includes Election time ! As one person pointed out, it's bloody hard to find someone who will admit the voted FF.

However the comment re "oh wise one" was a bit unnecessary
In fact I did buy in the bubble, but I don't mind. I borrowed what I can cover, and I couldn't care less that my house is in neg equity. I've no need/desire to sell, but then I'm one of the lucky ones. Ones house value is only an issue if you need or wish to sell.

Where I think we may differ, is in the regulation side of things. The government are NOT supposed to set the price of goods and services, nor would I want them to. However they SHOULD regulate the fees charged for running pension funds. They are outrageous, and most not up front and open. If they were, no one in their right mind would put their hard earned into them.

Yes the Gov need to protect the taxpayer, and yes sometimes from themselves. Low interest rates for example ! On one hand it encourages borrowing (thats why they are low) but this should also be backed by regulation. On the other hand, low interest rates kill those of us that do try to save, in the form of negative interest rates - Interest rates on deposits lower then inflation. Therefore you are actually loosing money, by leaving it on deposit. This is by design, to encourage people to spend, in order to get the economy moving. This is the very reason, so many are moving into commodities such as metals etc. Hedge against inflation. Because the Gov is not really looking after the people, it is looking after itself, it is and always has done.Why do you think half the "kicking the can down the road" is happening ? Because they all know that if they do the right thing the people will punish them for it !! So yes the people DO need protecting, from Gov that puts itself ahead of the taxpayer, that puts the public sector ahead of the tax payer, THAT EVEN PUTS BANKS ahead of the tax payer.

And for the record, endless printing (QE) is not the answer, but it IS what we are all going to get !! So prepare yourself for high (if not hyper) inflation.

bijapos

What FG supporters here seem to forget is that when "people went mad and borrowed", those very people are paying back their debts, in the vast majority of cases on time and on schedule. There are essentially three kinds of debt we are talking about here:

1. Public/State debt: We have a budget deficit of several billion every year, we need to borrow to make up that deficit in the short to medium term. Nothing new here, lots of countries borrow money, this will be paid back as its state guaranteed.

2. Corporate Debt (for want of a better word). This is the real problem. Enormous sums of money borrowed by individuals and corporations who speculated on land and house prices remaining high. This was fine until the bubble, as predicted, burst. Lending institutions, be they banks or whatever, who gave them money, be they Irish or foreign, should have taken huge losses on this, but they havent as of yet because as we know this has been guaranteed by the state. We have had to borrow money to guarantee this, the losses on this provisionally run into tens of billions.

3. Private debt. This is the one where Enda Kennys "we all borrowed like mad" comes into it. This includes mortgages, bank loans for cars, holidays, bling, debts on credit cards and so on. This runs into hundreds of millions. The thing is though, this money is, in the vast majority of cases, being paid back and on time. About 7-10% of people are in serious trouble with their mortgage, (about another 10% are struggling to pay it back). This still means 90%+ of people are paying their debts back.

Now even in a country as supposedly financially astute as Germany there are private citizens, in boom and in recession times, who cannot pay back their private debts, Ireland is no different. Most of the debt defaulters were paying the money back when they were employed, but at 14% unemployment it is obvious that some will run into trouble. Even so, corporations such as Visa know that a certain percentage of people won't pay back their debts and make allowances for this in their books, which is also reflected in their interest rates.

So the point is, it is not the ordinary people who are casuing the problem, it was the mismanagement of the tax revenue system, the fact that tax revenue so much depended on one industry and high personal spending that then collapsed that is partly to blame. And along with this the debts run up by a very small number of businesses who borrowed huge amounts of money to buy now almost worthless land who are responsible.

Not "people going mad" as Enda says. The fact that he wasn't specific is appaling imo, internationally he has now said as leader of this country that the ordinary people are to blame. This is wrong. He should apologise.

stackerman

bijapos wrote: »

What FG supporters here seem to forget is that when "people went mad and borrowed", those very people are paying back their debts, in the vast majority of cases on time and on schedule. There are essentially three kinds of debt we are talking about here:

1. Public/State debt: We have a budget deficit of several billion every year, we need to borrow to make up that deficit in the short to medium term. Nothing new here, lots of countries borrow money, this will be paid back as its state guaranteed.

2. Corporate Debt (for want of a better word). This is the real problem. Enormous sums of money borrowed by individuals and corporations who speculated on land and house prices remaining high. This was fine until the bubble, as predicted, burst. Lending institutions, be they banks or whatever, who gave them money, be they Irish or foreign, should have taken huge losses on this, but they havent as of yet because as we know this has been guaranteed by the state. We have had to borrow money to guarantee this, the losses on this provisionally run into tens of billions.

3. Private debt. This is the one where Enda Kennys "we all borrowed like mad" comes into it. This includes mortgages, bank loans for cars, holidays, bling, debts on credit cards and so on. This runs into hundreds of millions. The thing is though, this money is, in the vast majority of cases, being paid back and on time. About 7-10% of people are in serious trouble with their mortgage, (about another 10% are struggling to pay it back). This still means 90%+ of people are paying their debts back.

Now even in a country as supposedly financially astute as Germany there are private citizens, in boom and in recession times, who cannot pay back their private debts, Ireland is no different. Most of the debt defaulters were paying the money back when they were employed, but at 14% unemployment it is obvious that some will run into trouble. Even so, corporations such as Visa know that a certain percentage of people won't pay back their debts and make allowances for this in their books, which is also reflected in their interest rates.

So the point is, it is not the ordinary people who are casuing the problem, it was the mismanagement of the tax revenue system, the fact that tax revenue so much depended on one industry and high personal spending that then collapsed that is partly to blame. And along with this the debts run up by a very small number of businesses who borrowed huge amounts of money to buy now almost worthless land who are responsible.

Not "people going mad" as Enda says. The fact that he wasn't specific is appaling imo, internationally he has now said as leader of this country that the ordinary people are to blame. This is wrong. He should apologise.

Well said !

UDP

Enda is 100% correct here.

Greed from a large part of Irish society (and global too) was what caused the issues. It is people that run corporations thus a corporation itself that is not greedy - it is those running it that are.

Regular people getting loans were greedy
Those working in the banks approving the loans were greedy (although to be fair some staff were following the banks policies and rules but still they approved 100%+ mortgages)
Those high up in the management of the banks were greedy
Shareholders in the banks looking for large profits were greedy
Those representing the vulnerable were greedy (especially those looking for more social welfare assistance)
Unions were greedy
Corporations were greedy

The vast majority of Irish society (but not everyone) were greedy which resulted in the mess we are in. There were global influences too but our greed blinded us from protecting ourselves.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions. Like said earlier - nobody forced you to take a loan to buy a house that is only worth half of what you paid for it now. It was simply your greed and naivety.

Nobody should have gotten a bailout and any bailouts should have resulted in the bank owning completely what was bailed out.

quietriot

stackerman wrote: »

FEW accept responsibility for their own actions, and that includes Election time ! As one person pointed out, it's bloody hard to find someone who will admit the voted FF.

Yep, that person was me Indeed, Irish people seem to want to distance themselves from any form of responsibility for...well...anything. Yet, the same people were rubbing "we're the richest in Europe" in people's faces only a few years ago, along with how good Fianna Fail were because they didn't try to tax children's shoes, a measure the previous FG government (who rescued the country) tried to implement.

There's a lot of people with short memories and a "I didn't do it" attitude and the developers and bank staff are just being targeted to point the finger at someone.

The banks are the worst with regards to responsibility though, with AIB suggesting that their new CEO take a €1m salary this year, after the huge amount of money their actions have cost the country. We've yet to hear about the redundancies they promised and I know for a fact that they're hiring now.

However the comment re "oh wise one" was a bit unnecessary
In fact I did buy in the bubble, but I don't mind. I borrowed what I can cover, and I couldn't care less that my house is in neg equity. I've no need/desire to sell, but then I'm one of the lucky ones. Ones house value is only an issue if you need or wish to sell.

Fair play.

Where I think we may differ, is in the regulation side of things. The government are NOT supposed to set the price of goods and services, nor would I want them to. However they SHOULD regulate the fees charged for running pension funds. They are outrageous, and most not up front and open. If they were, no one in their right mind would put their hard earned into them.

Private pension funds can charge whatever they like tbh and I don't think it's up to the government to say otherwise. If the charges aren't transparent then the company can be pursued legally however when it comes to optional, private expenditure it really is caveat emptor.

Government intervention in a free market is a pretty bad thing and once it begins there is no telling where the line is drawn.

Because the Gov is not really looking after the people, it is looking after itself, it is and always has done.Why do you think half the "kicking the can down the road" is happening ? Because they all know that if they do the right thing the people will punish them for it !! So yes the people DO need protecting, from Gov that puts itself ahead of the taxpayer, that puts the public sector ahead of the tax payer, THAT EVEN PUTS BANKS ahead of the tax payer.

When you say "puts < > ahead of the taxpayer", how do you mean? I certainly don't feel like someone has been put ahead of my concerns personally.

And for the record, endless printing (QE) is not the answer, but it IS what we are all going to get !! So prepare yourself for high (if not hyper) inflation.

Believe me friend, I haven't long left in Ireland and I've no intention of returning

stackerman

UDP wrote: »

It was simply your greed and naivety.

You were doing so well, until you wrote that.
Naivety, stupidity etc etc - maybe

But greedy ?? Harsh and unfair me thinks. Typical Irish attitude, try to better your, and your kids lives and your called greedy FFS. Sure look maybe these people you refer to should just give up working, trying to look after themselves and their family, and just let the tax payer foot the bill.

Naturally there are those who took the piss all together, but I honestly think these are few and far between.

Most people are not economists or accountants and trust the "system" to guide them in the right direction. They'll not make that mistake again though :mad:

UDP

UDP wrote: »

Enda is 100% correct here.

Greed from a large part of Irish society (and global too) was what caused the issues. It is people that run corporations thus a corporation itself that is not greedy - it is those running it that are.

Regular people getting loans were greedy
Those working in the banks approving the loans were greedy (although to be fair some staff were following the banks policies and rules but still they approved 100%+ mortgages)
Those high up in the management of the banks were greedy
Shareholders in the banks looking for large profits were greedy
Those representing the vulnerable were greedy (especially those looking for more social welfare assistance)
Unions were greedy
Corporations were greedy

The vast majority of Irish society (but not everyone) were greedy which resulted in the mess we are in. There were global influences too but our greed blinded us from protecting ourselves.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions. Like said earlier - nobody forced you to take a loan to buy a house that is only worth half of what you paid for it now. It was simply your greed and naivety.

Nobody should have gotten a bailout and any bailouts should have resulted in the bank owning completely what was bailed out.

here, here!

stackerman

UDP wrote: »

Nobody should have gotten a bailout and any bailouts should have resulted in the bank owning completely what was bailed out.

Agreed, anything other than that is not capitalism.

fliball123

antoobrien wrote: »

He's right, it's not the only reason but it is the primary reason.

There was no one person or step that could have stopped it all but the bottom line is that if people weren't willing to pay the prices being asked the bubble wouldn't have kept expanding.

Its b0ll0x and a con job the main reason we are up to your t1ts in debt is our over borrowing by the gov to pay for overpaid public servants and the dole..This is the single biggest contribution to our debt and deficit there are figures that various posters have put up on these boards that show the banks brought in less than 1/3 of the debt and deficit that we see ourselves in ...Kenny is deflecting this point away....Politicians in particular Fianna Fail are to blame for the 2/3s of our soveign deficit and debt for over spending the other 1/3 which is the banking clusterfcuk...Well Sinn Fein's Pierce Doherty has figures that only 180 people (individuals) got loans of more than 60billion..So for Kenny to say we all went mad is shamefull when you break it down..He should hang his head in shame he has betrayed the people who voted him in....He neglects to say how the media and governement of the time aggressively said there was no bubble that the houses would continue rising and that they should get in before they were out of reach..Thats one side..Then on the other side you had banks who were completely let off the leash and lent recklessly and then you had greedy developers who kept upping the prices..The average person who is none bank, PS , Gov or builder related who bought a house is not as culapable as Kenny would have you believe...If everyone was doing their job properly this would not of happened..END OF

grumpymunster

I bought late in the boom, I am saddled with a large mortgage and negative equitity. Whilst it is a hell of a struggle it is my responsibility and will do my level best to pay it back. That is where my responsibility ends why am I responsible for the gross errors of the banks, why do I have to pay that back. Why am I responsible for an over sized public service that the government do noes not have the balls to tackle?

Enda, to my mind, is grossly insulting. So far this government has been nothing but a disaster for this country, they would do well to reflect on what happened to FF at the last election. Insulting the hand that feeds you not a clever move.

And for those with the benefit of hindsight do they remember Bertie's speech at City West and still claim no governmental input.

stackerman

quietriot wrote: »

Believe me friend, I haven't long left in Ireland and I've no intention of returning

I assume you meant "Have" long left

Im afraid the inflation will not be limited to Ireland, or the EU. Not too many places will be "safe" when the can stops.

ATB

antoobrien

fliball123 wrote: »

Its b0ll0x and a con job

What about the €550 billion that was borrowed to buy houses in Ireland over the past 10 years - several times more than what the government borrowed.

Face it, we got far too big for our boots and now are paying the price.

We were happy to ignore the buildup of debt while things were going well - to the point of confusing debt with wealth (Quinn's loans were most of the €4 billion personal fortune after all) - but now that the truth is being pointed out to us, we refuse to accept it.