Taoiseach speech in Davros

femur61

The Taoiseach has said in Davos the problem with our economy was that people went mad borrowing in a system that spawned greed, went out of control and led to the crash. What do people think of his statement? I for one do agree with it, he is getting a lot of flack about it but personally I think he spole the truth.

Cookie_Monster

A system that the government encouraged though (and the opposition was happy not to comment on either)

bcmf

Funny how he didnt mention how the banks were giving out money to the 'greedy' while turning a seemingly blind eye to repayment capacity or if interest rates started to rise?
For him to blame the 'greed' of the people ,to me anyway, shows what little grasp he has of the situation and I fear nothing will change.

zootroid

What he said is not incorrect, some people did get greedy and borrow too much, but there are plenty others I would blame first before blaming people for wanting to buy a house

1. The government (Fianna Fail / PD's)
2. The banks
3. The central bank / financial regulator
4. Property developers / land owners

Chucky the tree

The banks didn't put a gun to peoples heads. People could have said no, but they didn't. I don't blame people smoking cigarettes on the shops that sell them, and most people here don't either so I don't really see any difference.

Icepick

zootroid wrote: »

What he said is not incorrect, some people did get greedy and borrow too much, but there are plenty others I would blame first before blaming people for wanting to buy a house

1. The government (Fianna Fail / PD's)
2. The banks
3. The central bank / financial regulator
4. Property developers / land owners

Well, those four were also greedy, just on a larger scale.

Rigsy

The banks didn't put a gun to peoples heads. People could have said no, but they didn't. I don't blame people smoking cigarettes on the shops that sell them, and most people here don't either so I don't really see any difference.

Mightn't have put a gun to people's heads but a government fuelling the panic of property price increases led a lot of us not knowing where it was going to end, how high the prices were going to go.

End result, felt we had to get on the ladder. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

antoobrien

femur61 wrote: »

The Taoiseach has said in Davos the problem with our economy was that people went mad borrowing in a system that spawned greed, went out of control and led to the crash. What do people think of his statement? I for one do agree with it, he is getting a lot of flack about it but personally I think he spole the truth.

He's right, it's not the only reason but it is the primary reason.

There was no one person or step that could have stopped it all but the bottom line is that if people weren't willing to pay the prices being asked the bubble wouldn't have kept expanding.

stackerman

bcmf wrote: »

Funny how he didnt mention how the banks were giving out money to the 'greedy' while turning a seemingly blind eye to repayment capacity or if interest rates started to rise?
e.

As did the European Banks who lent to the Irish ones.
All happy to take huge profits, lending without DDD.
Why bother, when the Tax payer will bail them out ! Not exactly capitalism, is it ?

Point being, each of us should take the blame for our own borrowings and lending. If you got it right, good for you, if not . . . .
Should the tax payer come riding on a White horse

Damien360

Although what he stated is true, it was a minority that went very, very deep in debt and brought the country to it's knees. I asm thinking of the anglo 12 for starters. The people who bought for 400,000 plus were very wrong but not on the same scale as those who wasted millions/billions.

Chucky the tree

Rigsy wrote: »

Mightn't have put a gun to people's heads but a government fuelling the panic of property price increases led a lot of us not knowing where it was going to end, how high the prices were going to go.

End result, felt we had to get on the ladder. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

So is common sense. Anyone who felt they "had" to get on the ladder clearly lacked it.

coolshannagh28

Peoples willingness to borrow is only curbed by lenders prudence and proper oversight, as evidenced by every bubble in history worldwide .
The reason we elect governments is to provide regulation and balance we lost this for a decade with inevitable results , chaos
Ends seems to have gone AWOL over there parroting his lines like a good German .

sideswipe

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The banks didn't put a gun to peoples heads. People could have said no, but they didn't. I don't blame people smoking cigarettes on the shops that sell them, and most people here don't either so I don't really see any difference.

Nobody was forced into debt, but Enda's word's are a bit like salt in a wound. There are plenty of people who screwed this country. He comes on our screen's for his very grand 'address to the nation' and tells me it's not our fault, then Fecks off to Europe and tells them it was our fault coz we're greedy bastards.............. It's a little hard to swallow IMO

Liam Byrne

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Peoples willingness to borrow is only curbed by lenders prudence and proper oversight, as evidenced by every bubble in history worldwide .
The reason we elect governments is to provide regulation and balance we lost this for a decade with inevitable results , chaos
Ends seems to have gone AWOL over there parroting his lines like a good German .

Actually my willingness to borrow was curbed by my own cop-on when the lender offered twice what I had said I could pay back.

So Kenny spouting ****e and blaming me means he's - well, let's just say that if I used the word I'm feeling that I'd get an infraction.

Clueless, hypocritical and 100% incorrect partially sums it up, and I'd love to sue the guy for slander for suggesting that I had any hand, act or part in the mess.

Ironically if we started to point fingers at politicians and their incompetence and decison-making, Kenny would be the first to point out that they weren't the ones making those decisions.

Well he can't have it both ways and he can forget about any future votes from me - if the option were there - even if it cost me money - I'd publically revoke my vote.

Liam Byrne

zootroid wrote: »

What he said is not incorrect, some people did get greedy and borrow too much, but there are plenty others I would blame first before blaming people for wanting to buy a house

1. The government (Fianna Fail / PD's)
2. The banks
3. The central bank / financial regulator
4. Property developers / land owners

He neglected to say "some".

Benito

This seems to be turning into a mantra of late. Enda gives an interview in Davos stating that people got greedy and that this was the cause of our present financial problems.

He said this to, for want of a better term, foreigners! What he said to us natives in December was somewhat different, was it not?

You might agree with him now but, why did he day what he said to us then. Who posted on forums then disagreeing with him?

On politics.ie, FG posters are positively rancid in spinning this mantra and they are not very polite over there. Whether he meant this or not, it is now gospel truth and so mirrors what the last Government held as the reason, aside from Lehmann Bro.

Why do supporters of one party show such hypocrisy that they so decried when in opposition?

I do not agree with the mantra.

Sully

Well, he is right. As much as we hate it, a lot of the situation we are in right now many of us got ourselves into. Not all, but a lot. There was that and reckless government spending and attitudes. He was being frank, but it just looks stupid because he said the opposite already.

Benito

Sully wrote: »

Well, he is right. As much as we hate it, a lot of the situation we are in right now many of us got ourselves into. Not all, but a lot. There was that and reckless government spending and attitudes. He was being frank, but it just looks stupid because he said the opposite already.

OK. My eldest brother was the first to by a house. Engaged, he and my sister in law got their mortgage before their wedding. He was 27. They raised a family. Mid to late 20's, maybe early 30's is the norm. 1976.

During the bubble what were professional couples like these to do? Cast a cold eye on the dangers of taking on too big a mortgage and decide to put off having a home of their own, let alone raising a family?

They should have the foresight to see this when everyone was screaming, spend, borrow, the good times are here!

Should they have put off having kids for a decade or more?

Buying a house and having children is what most people, professional or not did in the boom.

They had options?

eigrod

The Independent are hammering him on the front page tomorrow because he addressed us all in December telling us that we weren't to blame and now he's saying we are.

dahamsta

zootroid wrote: »

What he said is not incorrect, some people did get greedy and borrow too much, but there are plenty others I would blame first before blaming people for wanting to buy a house

1. The government (Fianna Fail / PD's)
2. The banks
3. The central bank / financial regulator
4. Property developers / land owners

5. The Useless Opposition.

Remind me, who was in opposition at the time again? It's on the tip of my tongue...

the groutch

Edna throwing out a rehash of the FF line "We all partied"

Going Forward

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So is common sense. Anyone who felt they "had" to get on the ladder clearly lacked it.

The "Lenders" also obviously threw all previously accepted (and subsequently proven) lending criteria out the window by offering all and sundry easy loans.

Remember "sub prime" lending? The loan offer letters sent by GE Money unsolicited? The constant Permanent TSB TV ads with the mafia guy?

They were and are the "professionals" in the equation, and they clearly may not have been acting professionally in their past conduct- hence their current correct/strict/new lending criteria- which is pretty close to how things used to be and should have been.

Mind you, they seemed to have been very "professional" in their persuading the previous finance minister to adopt the blanket bank guarantee to cover themselves.

As for Kenny's speech, what little I've heard of it, he seems to be retracting that it is "not your fault", when he's in different company.

Seems to have forgotten that he was in the opposition, who didnt exactly call for the brakes to be put on either, someone may correct me on that if I am wrong.

murphaph

Rigsy wrote: »

Mightn't have put a gun to people's heads but a government fuelling the panic of property price increases led a lot of us not knowing where it was going to end, how high the prices were going to go.

End result, felt we had to get on the ladder. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It was very obvious to me by the mid 2000s at the latest that it was going to end in a burst bubble, just as it has (time and time again) in many other western nations with high home ownership levels. It always bursts, and starts again.

murphaph

the groutch wrote: »

Edna throwing out a rehash of the FF line "We all partied"

Ah look, can you honestly say you didn't pay over the odds for pints of a weekend? Or say "feck it" and fork over €15 for a Dominos pizza? Or €4 for a coffee etc? I would say I was fairly restrained but I wouldn't say I was a saint. I certainly went for pints with the lads in town and blew €100 of a night no problem. I couldn't imagine doing that now, but such small actions all fueled the boom and drove prices up, not just buying property directly.

Our politicians and banks and regulators failed us miserably, but we (not you Liam, before you hit the keyboard!) as a people mostly did participate to a greater or lesser degree in wasting money in some shape or form. If we can't recognise our mistakes, we are doomed to repeat them!

dsmythy

zootroid wrote: »

What he said is not incorrect, some people did get greedy and borrow too much, but there are plenty others I would blame first before blaming people for wanting to buy a house

1. The government (Fianna Fail / PD's)
2. The banks
3. The central bank / financial regulator
4. Property developers / land owners

He said "people" 1,2,3,4 are all classed as people. Just about maybe for some of them

Seth Brundle

Dec 2011:
"Let me say this to you all: You are not responsible for the crisis."

Jan 2012:
"What happened in our country was that people simply went mad borrowing"

Look, the country re-elected these same politicians who presided over these insane banking practices and not only that, but actively threw fuel on the fire with tax breaks etc. The public did this because we were bought off. Bought off through massive government spending, and we wanted more and more and more.


So, who are these people that didn't benefit short-term from government policies? It's easy to lay blame, but we might want to look at ourselves first.




Oh and before anyone bothers insinuating - no, I have never voted FF. Not that it matters.

Bullseye1

kbannon wrote: »

Dec 2011:
"Let me say this to you all: You are not responsible for the crisis."

Jan 2012:
"What happened in our country was that people simply went mad borrowing"

I haven't seen the latest interview. Did he say "some people" or "everyone"? If he said some people I don't see a problem even a significant number of people but everyone would be stretching it.

Seth Brundle

My quotes are from the Irish Times and to my knowledge are direct quotes.
Anyhow, does it matter? In Dec he told us all that we weren't at fault. Now some of us are. It's only a matter of time till all of us are at fault!

Bullseye1

I'm sure you know of people who decided that they would buy 2-3 extra houses for their pension. You know in collage towns where they thought they were guaranteed rent. And the people who borrowed for wedding which cost €25,000-€50,000. And the people who borrowed to go on exotic holidays. Hell there is even talk of people heading to the credit union to pay for trips to Poland for the Euros. It's hardly a culture of restraint and good money management.

dsmythy

Oh the spinning machine is a running

eigrod wrote: »

The Independent are hammering him on the front page tomorrow because he addressed us all in December telling us that we weren't to blame and now he's saying we are.

Except he didn't. Unless he whispered your name under his breath or something.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

He neglected to say "some".

Nor did he say everyone. Or the whole country. Or anything. He made a true statement that people went mad borrowing. That includes evil bankers and doesn't include those who didn't.

People just look to have a go twisting words.