That just doesn't make sense!

Myrddin · 01-02-2012 09:24AM #1

Trek is riddled in things that just don't make sense. For instance, I was watching TNG "The Next Phase" last night & thought to myself, ok Geordi & Ro can pass through walls, bulkheads, & basically all matter. Why don't they fall through the floors?

What other examples of plot device failures have you noticed?

TheIrishGrover · 01-02-2012 11:12AM

Well, if you're going to go down that path you may as well give up Sci-Fi altogether

We all think that when we hear the term "out of phase". lol They actually mentioned that in a very funny episode of Stargate. Can't find the clip but here's another clip from the same episode:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMLOqCaMRQg

Myrddin · 01-02-2012 11:21AM

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Well, if you're going to go down that path you may as well give up Sci-Fi altogether

I'm not nitpicking, I love sci-fi & accept it. Sure what's star trek but a load of people flying around in a metal box faster than the speed of light? No, there's so much more to it.

But in this case, I just find it amusing that Geordi & Ro can walk on the deck plates while at the same time passing through walls.

folan · 01-02-2012 11:28AM

it takes alot more concentratibo than you might think to be able to concentrate on not falling through the floor. They could go through the floors if they wanted, but thats hardly practicle. where as they just show off with the walls.

nyarlothothep · 01-02-2012 03:16PM

I'm not a physicist but if there was no mass pulling them downwards couldn't they just walk on the floors (sort of) without falling through them unless they wanted to walk through them?

Also the whole aliens in the transporter stream with Barclay was terrible, shouldn't he have been just a mass of particles being sent and reconstructed from one place to the other rather than being a whole person?

Voyager is responsible for so many science gaffs and I haven't watched it in years because I'm still haunted by it but the one where Janeway decides to fly through two binary stars to get rid of the alien observers made me feel like the ship should have been compacted into a tin can long before the point of passing through them. Janeway was really reckless on that one, "ok I'll just risk killing us all just to get rid of these aliens", yeah brilliant idea.

Lets see the Holodeck really makes no sense at all, brilliant in theory though and I want to see them in the next 10 years.

The episode where Picard, Data and Troi are in a different frame of reference to the crew, they're moving at a normal speed through space compared to the Ent. So when Picard touches the transporter chief, shouldn't the speed at which that gesture is given wound the chief who appears stationary because he's moving through time at a much slower or am I missing something here?

Myrddin · 01-02-2012 03:23PM

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I'm not a physicist but if there was no mass pulling them downwards couldn't they just walk on the floors (sort of) without falling through them unless they wanted to walk through them?

Em, artificial gravity in the deck plates? Sure maybe they wouldn't fall through the floor, but they've certainly pass through the carpets & down a little bit into the deck surely? If that's the case, how are they even able to walk/run? They've no friction

nyarlothothep wrote:

Also the whole aliens in the transporter stream with Barclay was terrible, shouldn't he have been just a mass of particles being sent and reconstructed from one place to the other rather than being a whole person?

Voyager is responsible for so many science gaffs and I haven't watched it in years because I'm still haunted by it but the one where Janeway decides to fly through two binary stars to get rid of the alien observers made me feel like the ship should have been compacted into a tin can long before the point of passing through them. Janeway was really reckless on that one, "ok I'll just risk killing us all just to get rid of these aliens", yeah brilliant idea.

Lets see the Holodeck really makes no sense at all, brilliant in theory though and I want to see them in the next 10 years.

The episode where Picard, Data and Troi are in a different frame of reference to the crew, they're moving at a normal speed through space compared to the Ent. So when Picard touches the transporter chief, shouldn't the speed at which that gesture is given wound the chief who appears stationary because he's moving through time at a much slower or am I missing something here?

Exactly. I forgot about the Barclay one, that's guilty also. It conveys the idea that your still 'solid' while in the transporter beam.

nyarlothothep · 01-02-2012 06:48PM

EnterNow wrote: »

Em, artificial gravity in the deck plates? Sure maybe they wouldn't fall through the floor, but they've certainly pass through the carpets & down a little bit into the deck surely? If that's the case, how are they even able to walk/run? They've no friction

Exactly. I forgot about the Barclay one, that's guilty also. It conveys the idea that your still 'solid' while in the transporter beam.

Agh I know! It makes no sense, there is no way to rationalise how they can even move, a terrible scientific premise for an episode. I like the episodes where there is no pretense at making sense like when they go back in time to meet Mark Twain, just because the writers wanted Mark Twain in an episode.

IvySlayer · 01-02-2012 06:52PM

OK, Voyagers just a plot hole in general but, if Admiral Janeway went back in time with technology from the future surely the technology would no longer exist as the timeline where it was invented is gone!

Goldstein · 01-02-2012 07:20PM

The way they magically mastered time travel to get home at the end of TVH and FC. Did they forget how to do it afterwards or can every ship now (Post First Contact) travel arbitrarily through time if they just "recreate the conditions"?

nyarlothothep · 01-02-2012 08:55PM

IvySlayer wrote: »

OK, Voyagers just a plot hole in general but, if Admiral Janeway went back in time with technology from the future surely the technology would no longer exist as the timeline where it was invented is gone!

By going back in time she automatically created an alternate universe. Paradoxes cannot exist by virtue of the fact that they cancel out their own existence so Star Trek may as well be regarded as a whole set of alternate universes, the crew at the end of each show are not the same crew you saw at the beginning.

Pride Fighter · 01-02-2012 11:32PM

EnterNow wrote: »

Trek is riddled in things that just don't make sense. For instance, I was watching TNG "The Next Phase" last night & thought to myself, ok Geordi & Ro can pass through walls, bulkheads, & basically all matter. Why don't they fall through the floors?

What other examples of plot device failures have you noticed?

Ro and Geordi falling through the floor. I suppose you could say the same about the USS Pegasus and its phased cloaking device. Someone could say, oh its only the outer hull that is phased and that can pass through anything.

So would there be guards to guard the outer hull?? Could a crew member run at the outer hull and fall out of the ship?

Pride Fighter · 01-02-2012 11:34PM

Also the long range transport in the new Star Trek reboot makes no sense at all.

Cossax · 02-02-2012 01:27AM

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Ro and Geordi falling through the floor. I suppose you could say the same about the USS Pegasus and its phased cloaking device. Someone could say, oh its only the outer hull that is phased and that can pass through anything.

So would there be guards to guard the outer hull?? Could a crew member run at the outer hull and fall out of the ship?

Presumably the entire ship, crew included, is out of phase together and as such isn't an issue?

Pride Fighter · 02-02-2012 01:53AM

Cossax wrote: »

Presumably the entire ship, crew included, is out of phase together and as such isn't an issue?

Then why dont the crew fall through the floor then??

Cossax · 02-02-2012 02:14AM

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Then why dont the crew fall through the floor then??

Perhaps I should have highlighted the bit about the Pegasus - the whole ship is out of phase and why would the behaviour of the ship/its contents be any different as long as they're in the same 'phase'?

Cookie_Monster · 02-02-2012 04:05AM

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Then why dont the crew fall through the floor then??

because they are in phase with the ship and everything inside it and out of phase only with stuff outside it.

why do they use lifts instead of just transporting everywhere?

why does the holodeck use a powersource totally incompatable with the rest of a ships power systems?

Kirby · 02-02-2012 08:30AM

nyarlothothep wrote: »

the one where Janeway decides to fly through two binary stars to get rid of the alien observers made me feel like the ship should have been compacted into a tin can long before the point of passing through them. Janeway was really reckless on that one, "ok I'll just risk killing us all just to get rid of these aliens", yeah brilliant idea.

To be fair, this was actually part of the episode.

If you recall, the aliens had pumped up her dopamine levels and she hadn't slept in days. She was really short fused with the crew and was snapping constantly. It would make sense for her to do something really reckless at that point and I wouldn't consider that a plot whole.

I mean she does some really questionable and stupid stuff throughout the series but this one made alot of sense to me. If aliens can kill you instantly with the touch of a button the only way to win is to convince them you are willing to take them down with you.

As for completely ridiculous Voyager science gaffs, I just watched "The Killing game" on sky, the one where the Hirogen take over Voyager and use the holodeck for the hunt. Decent episode but one bit really annoyed me. Seven makes a photonic grenade to destroy any holograms in the area. She drops it and all the holographic weapons and armor disappears...........but the floor and buildings and street they are on remain the same......even though they are on the holodeck and are all holopgraphic.

I realise they were on a set and CGI'ing the street away was probably expensive.....but its just looked ridiculous by not doing. Even non-trek fans would've been sitting there thinking "Hang on a minute........"

Myrddin · 05-03-2012 09:57AM

Warp Drive impossibly destructive says science guy

However, the process would also attract particles which would enter the warp bubble surrounding the spacecraft, McMonigal said. Some particles would "obtain extremely high energy and velocity and become time locked for the duration of their time in the bubble, experiencing very little proper time between entering and eventually leaving the bubble." When the spacecraft decelerates, the particles would be blasted away from the craft and change to particles with very short wavelength. According to the researcher, the effect would be a concentrated ray with virtually uncontrollable destructive power. The longer the duration of the warp drive travel, the stronger the released energies, McMonigal said.

Source

Kiith · 05-03-2012 10:02AM

EnterNow wrote: »

Warp Drive impossibly destructive says science guy

Source

They'll just invent McMonigal Compensators for that.

Myrddin · 05-03-2012 10:04AM

Kiith wrote: »

They'll just invent McMonigal Compensators for that.

Too true

Though isn't the deflector dish there primarily to protect the ship from particles at warp speed. I don't think science guy done his homework.....that and it's a sci-fi show kinda hurt his argument.

oxygen · 05-03-2012 03:23PM

EnterNow wrote: »

Trek is riddled in things that just don't make sense. For instance, I was watching TNG "The Next Phase" last night & thought to myself, ok Geordi & Ro can pass through walls, bulkheads, & basically all matter. Why don't they fall through the floors?

What other examples of plot device failures have you noticed?

I thought that made perfect sense. Their still effected by gravity, since there not floating around, and the gravity for each deck is generated under the floor hence why they dont fall through it. Maybe it might be an issue if they were in a two story house on earth or something.

Now how they managed to breathe oxygen while out of phase is a bigger question for me.

Plazaman · 05-03-2012 03:28PM

When you see the ship taking off into warp, why do they never fly straight up or down? Always implies that to get to anywhere in the universe you must fly horizontally.

Cookie_Monster · 05-03-2012 11:53PM

Plazaman wrote: »

When you see the ship taking off into warp, why do they never fly straight up or down? Always implies that to get to anywhere in the universe you must fly horizontally.

except in that one scene right at the end of TNG when adapted enterprise arrive facing up and looks seriously cool.

I suppose the arguement would be that most of the galaxy is within the horizontal plane more or less and given the distances involved only the slightest degree of and off horizontal is enough to given the vertical difference over such distance?

norrie rugger · 06-03-2012 08:04AM

EnterNow wrote: »

Trek is riddled in things that just don't make sense. For instance, I was watching TNG "The Next Phase" last night & thought to myself, ok Geordi & Ro can pass through walls, bulkheads, & basically all matter. Why don't they fall through the floors?

What other examples of plot device failures have you noticed?

You could make a case for them being out of phase with the other forces, except gravity. With gravity thought to exist across dimensions, then could happen.
How they were able to breathe was more in my head

Myrddin · 06-03-2012 08:43AM

oxygen_temp wrote: »

I thought that made perfect sense. Their still effected by gravity, since there not floating around, and the gravity for each deck is generated under the floor hence why they dont fall through it. Maybe it might be an issue if they were in a two story house on earth or something.

Now how they managed to breathe oxygen while out of phase is a bigger question for me.

norrie rugger wrote: »

You could make a case for them being out of phase with the other forces, except gravity. With gravity thought to exist across dimensions, then could happen.
How they were able to breathe was more in my head

How are they able to walk/run then? The floor is obviously solid to them as they can move about. Gravity might attract them towards the floor, but it wouldn't give them a surface area for friction.

norrie rugger · 06-03-2012 10:10AM

EnterNow wrote: »

How are they able to walk/run then? The floor is obviously solid to them as they can move about. Gravity might attract them towards the floor, but it wouldn't give them a surface area for friction.

The artificial gravity field could easily give them a "surface" to move against, if the field causes a "Force field" like effect that they walk upon. I imagine that on a planet that they would simply be pulled down to the point of highest gravity where as with the ship being artifically generating gravity that there comes a point in the field where the artificial gravity stops them falling through and acts as a balance between attraction and repulsion.

Myrddin · 06-03-2012 10:16AM

norrie rugger wrote: »

The artificial gravity field could easily give them a "surface" to move against, if the field causes a "Force field" like effect that they walk upon. I imagine that on a planet that they would simply be pulled down to the point of highest gravity where as with the ship being artifically generating gravity that there comes a point in the field where the artificial gravity stops them falling through and acts as a balance between attraction and repulsion.

I know they're not gonna fall through the ship, as each deck has individual plating. Asking me to believe they can walk though because they're in phase with some kind of gravity force field is a big ask. Anyway, the gravitational center would be underneath the deck surface...they'd be knee deep in the deck before they could walk. In the episode, they're running around on the carpet.

They can walk because the episode kinda needed them to be able to

norrie rugger · 06-03-2012 10:55AM

EnterNow wrote: »

I know they're not gonna fall through the ship, as each deck has individual plating. Asking me to believe they can walk though because they're in phase with some kind of gravity force field is a big ask. Anyway, the gravitational center would be underneath the deck surface...they'd be knee deep in the deck before they could walk. In the episode, they're running around on the carpet.

They can walk because the episode kinda needed them to be able to

Exactly, and having them knee deep would be weird and budget killing.
Same as for them breathing

Goldstein · 06-03-2012 05:03PM

Careful which threads you pull on there

We're not a million miles away from the hallowed ground of The Visitor.

Myrddin · 06-03-2012 05:04PM

Goldstein wrote: »

Careful which threads you pull on there We're not a million miles away from the hollowed ground of The Visitor.

True

Though The Visitor is so complete in its awesomeness, that plot devices are completely exempt :cool:

Goldstein · 06-03-2012 06:41PM

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Also the long range transport in the new Star Trek reboot makes no sense at all.

I don't think this thread is big enough for all the mistakes in that movie.

Spock: "A star wil explode and threaten to destroy the galaxy"
Righto Spock, great science officer you are.

Pike: "You understand what the Federation is, don't you? It's important. It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada."
That's right Captain Pike you numpty, it IS important, but you've just described Starfleet. It's like mixing up the US Air Force and the United Nations.

The central premise of the whole film is Spock wants to create a black hole to save Romulus from a supernova. But while he's on his way, Romulus is destroyed by the supernova. So then why the hell with Romulus destroyed, does he proceed with creating a black hole anyway whose sole purpose was to save Romulus? What was the point? Remember them travelling back in time was an unintended accident so why did he make the black hole in the first place?

"If the ship is hit, the red matter will be ignited.".
So what was all the drilling for in the rest of the movie? Just shooting the red matter works just as well.

I could go all day and not run out of cases of utterly stupid crap in that film.

That just doesn't make sense!

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